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Leinster Team Talk Thread (Love you Furlong time)

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Comments

  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    So essentially the central contract money is to be used to pay the likes of Deegan, Penny, Ruddock, whichever Byrne is not selected… ?

    I can see some logic to it, but at this point the IRFU is basically funding two Leinster teams, no?

    I can't see any reasonable long-term solution that isn't massively investing in club rugby. If a handful of schools in Dublin can bring through tens of players prepared for a life in professional rugby, it should be feasible to bring through a similar number from the clubs in the rest of the country. Something like the Toulouse academy, but in Cork or Galway where young players can get access to the best training without going to private school. I know they'd never have quite the level of access the schools have but they could maybe get close enough with a decent pool of players.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,972 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Media doing the whining of the other provinces for them.

    Just want to tear it down out of jealousy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 815 ✭✭✭MangleBadger


    We should implement an NBA draft system post school for which prospects go to which academy!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,018 ✭✭✭✭Exclamation Marc


    We absolutely should not. Arbitrarily shipping 18 year olds around the country is not a good approach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,972 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    The provinces will never accept a draft system. They want to develop their own players and their own players want to play where they're from.

    It's parochial, but it has worked for years.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    There has been some work in that direction with the creation of the "centres of excellence" around the provinces , but more needs to be done to ensure that young players in Club rugby are getting access to the highest possible levels of coaching.

    A combination of regional development centres and more "boots on the ground" in terms of coaching development officers spending increased amounts of time in the clubs making sure that the coaching standards are consistently kept at the highest levels.

    Like you say , clubs will never have the physical access to players that schools (especially boarding schools) have but we can do better for certain.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,712 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    OK so 13 central contracts next season, if JGP gets one;

    Porter, Furlong, Sheehan, Ryan, Beirne, Henderson, VDF, Doris, JGP, Henshaw, Aki, Ringrose, Keenan.

    You can look at that list and say that Leinster will have 10 of the 13 and that's outrageous.

    But another way to look at the list is to say;

    • Nine products of the Leinster academy
    • Two project players
    • One each from Connacht and Ulster - and the Ulster guy is very likely on his last year
    • No Munster-produced players

    The only Munster or Ulster-produced player in that list made his test debut in 2012. The Munster guys coming off their central deals made their test debuts in 2011 and 2012, following Keith Earls last year (test debut 2008). I'm pretty sure the only Ulster or Munster player to debut since 2012 and subsequently get a central deal was Stockdale? That's over a decade of tumbleweeds.

    Even if we dished out a couple more, who'd get them? Probably Lowe and Hansen first up, i.e. two more SH imports. Maybe then you'd look at McCarthy and Crowley but it's way too early for them.

    People can bleat about Leinster's financial advantages and throw out the usual shyte about private schools, but it is self-delusion of the highest order to pretend that the real root problem here is anything other than the utter inability of Munster and Ulster to produce top-level players.

    Forcing top players to relocate is a short-term fix, and paying lesser players more and better players less is not a fix at all. This is a problem that has been years in the making and will take years to fix.

    The Irish team is the lifeblood of the game here and - rightly or wrongly - the provinces' primary function is to supply players to it. That system has not changed in 20 years. What has changed is the ability of two of the main suppliers to keep up their side of the bargain.

    Until the other provinces get their sh1t together in terms of player development, it's all just noise. If we're going to redistribute the money, then let's figure out a way to spend it in a way that will actually help, and not spunk it away on paying mediocre players more.



  • Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭ Tobias Bewildered Bluebird


    Listened to the Indo podcast on the commute the morning and it was just a full hour of whining. Apparently Sam Prendergast should be sent to the ProD2 for some reason? Hard to believe really after the weekend that was.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,972 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Good summation of the issues facing the other provinces.

    Leinster absolutely have financial and geographical advantages. But they're carrying the other provinces wrt player development and progressing to the test side.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,974 ✭✭✭DBK1


    How is any of this controversial though? The best players in the country are getting paid the best money, it’s hardly unreasonable for that to be the case?

    How are Leinster coming out as the bad guys in all of this? They’ve invested well from underage up, going back a long way to when they were practically a laughing stock in Irish rugby. This all didn’t happen overnight, it’s after taking a few generations of players and coaches for it all to come to fruition and now because the hard work paid off they’re being painted as the villains here.

    The simple solution is for the other Provinces to just go and develop better players to push the Leinster lads off their central contracts. That’s what Leinster decided to do 20 years ago when Munster had the majority of the best players and the CC’s and it’s paying off now. But the fans of the other Provinces don’t want to hear this and don’t want to put the time and effort in, instead looking for a quick fix.

    So what are the other solutions available?

    1. Force the lads on CC’s to move to other Provinces to share them equally? Most of them wouldn’t want to move and would probably retire instead so not going to work.
    2. Give an equal amount of CC’s to all Provinces? This would mean a lot lesser players getting CC’s over the better players so won’t work either as the better lads will look to move abroad for more money instead which is the opposite to what the CC‘s are for.
    3. Give matched funding to all Provinces so every time a player from any Province gets a CC then the other 3 Provinces are given the same amount of money to develop their own players? On paper maybe the fairest solution but where does all the money come from to fund it and what happens when a CC player gets injured playing for Ireland and is out of action? Their Province are without a player while the other 3 still have the money they were provided with for development of their non CC players that didn’t get injured for Ireland so not fair either.
    4. Cancel the CC structure and let it be every Province and every player for themselves? I’d assume there’s no explanation needed for how that would turn out.
    5. We’re out of options!

    I just don’t see how there’s any quick fix solution to the perceived problem here or how Leinster can be seen as the bad guys for putting 20+ years of hard work and money into developing the best players



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,972 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    That's not the first time I've heard that idea floated. I think it was Ruaidhri O'Connor who suggested it the last time as well.

    It's a terrible idea for any young Irish player to go there. It's a hyper physical league where you'll be dropped immediately if you start to struggle. It's an en especially bad idea for someone like Prendergast who needs more physical development.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,832 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    theyre also carrying the other provinces in regard to funding the IRFU.

    no doubt there is some matrix in the books of the IRFU which show 'income in to expense out' per province and that matrix would be very favourable towards Leinster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 815 ✭✭✭MangleBadger


    I didn't think I needed to mark this as sarcasm. But do we have many Leinster schoolboys going to the other provinces academies? Because if the other provinces are not producing enough local talent they should definitely be scouting in Dublin schools.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Aside from obvious flaws, wait for the absolute meltdown if/when Leinster got to draft a really highly rated prospect from elsewhere.

    The draft system would see a number of guys also leave Ireland. It would potentially be very damaging for Ulster who already experience a massive drain of school leavers to Britain.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3


    Most leinster schoolboys dont want to play for another province and they certainly dont want to leave Dublin for college.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Thornley said before a big game like the one in Aviva last weekend brings in circa 1m to the IRFU. He said IRFU and not Leinster, it was a few years back on a podcast so I don't know how it works.

    Jackman goes on about it all the time, seemingly some of the clubs in France have agreements with the ProD2 clubs so young players go down to play in that league to get experience etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,018 ✭✭✭✭Exclamation Marc


    STH Presale for SF starts tomorrow at 10am.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I remember a few years ago on Second Captains they had a discussion about young talented players in Ireland, not specific to rugby, and what is the best sport to pick. I think it was around the time Larmour started to play at a young age and could have played multiple sports

    More or less they said the huge advantage rugby has is a young player can stay at home, with their family and become a star. A lot of soccer players have to move to UK and chances of success is less because they are away from home, in another country etc.

    Now some players of course have moved to other provinces but the majority will want to stay with Leinster.

    Interest it was Andy Dunne who said when Conan was coming up, a load of his mates played rugby and would have been good, not as good as Conan and once they didn't make the cut they all more or less retired. He was talking about trying to figure out why this happened and why these players didn't stick it out in AIL etc and maybe go a different route and potentially end up with another province

    So the system is good but it does have issues like the one Andy pointed out



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,832 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    to me this is certainly a valid option. There is always so much complaints about "demographics" and "rugby schools" but in reality Leinster introduce usually around 7-8 players to their academy each year.

    That leaves a hell of a lot of very good raw talent available for other provinces to tout and offer academy / educational pathways to.

    im not well up on the other provinces set up below provincial level, as in, do they have an area system similar to where leinster have Metro, Midlands, South East, North Midlands and North East ?? if so i wonder can they improve on provincial coaching / screening at all youth age grade levels?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,785 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    This would probably be less contentious of players from other provinces who were actually deserving of central contracts actually got them e.g. the captain of the Irish national team, Ireland's best winger (albeit maybe he's up for renewal soon), etc.

    And yes, the draft is a terrible idea. The IRFU and RPI place too much emphasis on dual careers and going to college for that the work. The only exception would be a centralised IRFU academy in which players could be put up for open auction after three or four years (an academy cycle) on development deals - and which short term injury cover could be pulled from (and which fully fledged senior deals can be given early if a guy is clearly in another league based on AIL, Combined Provinces games, and Irish 20s).

    I'm sure that'll also fall apart if you give it more than a second's worth of thought, but it's a cool thought experiment if nothing else.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Hansen will almost surely move onto one, I doubt POM will be captain next year when he is off one and the backup scrum half has had one for years while the starting one didn't.

    There will always be an element of timing resulting in the odd unusual looking situation but by and large I don't know how you can argue the right people aren't on them. Suggesting the allocation is wrong seems like the easy way out of what is a much tougher problem.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,215 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    You are missing the point.

    This "Ulster / Munster need to produce more players" is true, but even if Ulster and Munster's academies were absolutely perfect at churning out talent, they still would not come close to Leinster. Not within a million miles. The academies will never close the chasm that has opened. Never.

    So when people bleat on about the real fix being fixing academies, what they are really saying is "the fix that will make Ulster and Munster a bit better than they are today, but conveniently will ensure that Leinster's place at the top is never under any threat, is to just keep telling them to produce more players".

    The real root of the problem here is money. The fix has to involve money, and a re-think in how money is distributed across the 4 teams that the IRFU are responsible for.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Yes , they do the sub regional structures in the other provinces and whilst they've made real improvements in the identification and coaching of promising players , a lot more could be done.

    The drop off rate of players leaving schools/club rugby at 18/19 years old is absolutely massive and is a big challenge in the sport.

    I'd be confident enough in saying that if you looked at any School SCT panel or Club U18.5 panel from 3/4 years ago , 60%+ of them are no longer playing the sport regularly today.

    Not sure how to fix that , but it's a huge issue.

    Obviously not all of those that drop out are potential Pro level players or even AIL level players , but more than a few are and even those that aren't, those are the guys that keep those smaller junior clubs going which ensures those clubs are around to provide access to the next generation of kids wanting to play the game.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Money with which to do what though?

    Because again it's either move players from leinster or bring in more NIQs. I'm not sure just saying "money" as an ephemeral concept means much. Ulster's current situation aside anyway, which seems more of an anomaly.



  • Posts: 12,836 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Am I reading it correctly that to sit in any part of a side stand (Hogan & Cusack), its €75?!



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,832 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    but you have ZERO idea of how money is distributed across all 4 provinces.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Perhaps a solution is more funding for "scholarships" to facilitate a Leinster originating player taking up an Academy offer in one of the other Provinces.

    Yes , Demographics will mean that Leinster will produce more potential Pro level players each year but Leinster can only offer a certain number contracts.

    If the other provinces were able to say to a player "We can give you an academy slot AND cover your college fees/accommodation for the 4 years" maybe that might make a move to Limerick/Galway/Belfast more attractive?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Personally, I'd make every province contribute a very minor part towards central contracts, and use the central money saved to invest in the Ulster, Connacht and Munster academies. No other use in any province.

    You're right - "coming close to Leinster" is a misnomer. Not possible. But we aren't producing what we should be producing. Now, we can take one of two approaches - we can holler "just produce more talent" like some asinine "GIT GUD" online provincial fans, or we can run it like a proper concern and invest. Did any part of any business or body actually improve without extra time, effort and money being applied?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,018 ✭✭✭✭Exclamation Marc


    It certainly reads that way, particularly as they have two prize bands for the Davin Stand but only one for the entire Hogan and Cusack (bar premium).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭hold my beer


    If that was true then Munster or Ulster would never have won a CC in the past, and Leinster would have dominated since the beginning. Sorry Awec, the problem here is not Leinster.



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