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Gordon Elliott
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Captain Flaps wrote: »That's such a nonsense comparison. That's like saying you can't talk about burglary numbers because 99% of people weren't burgled last year.
I'll be honest, I'm here because this thread popped up on the homepage. I'm very opposed to animals being used for sport so I appreciate that I am a very small minority in this thread. All I'll say is that whilst I believe that many (maybe even most) horse trainers and owners care about their animal's wellbeing, there are many that don't beyond how much revenue that horse can generate for them. Horses are intelligent creatures, and someone with my outlook can't fathom how anyone would put them at risk of injury or death by forcing them to race eachother. So when something like this comes out, where you have a well known trainer acting like this over the body of a horse he would supposedly care about (beyond the financial reasons), and seeing posters and commentors cracking jokes about it and saying it's no big deal, it really does call into question all the claims about the industry caring for the animals and make you wonder what else is going on. When you add that other video doing the rounds of the jockey doing something similar, as an outsider it certainly makes me feel justified in my opposition to horse racing.
Not posting this to be confrontational at all, I'm being upfront about my position on the sport and trying to highlight how this looks to people without a working knowledge of who these people are and what their involvement is!
No it isn't, mine makes sense, yours doesn't.
My point is people asking the question are doing so to specifically knock the sport of horse racing which takes really good care of it's animals.
Horses outside of horse racing are not cart horses, they are owned by people who also care for them and use them to ride them around the field, play polo, go showjumping, go hunting, all historical pursuits for human leisure purposes.
Someone going roaring that, I dunno, 500 horses died in horse racing is purely to try get a sport banned that they don't agree with. I would argue a higher percentage of horses die in the hands of the amatuer than the professionals.
Fair play for being honest and airing your view but as you say you are against horses being used for sport yet you are asking purely about horse racing.
Nowadays if horses aren't used for sport what are they used for ?0 -
No it isn't, mine makes sense, yours doesn't.
My point is people asking the question are doing so to specifically knock the sport of horse racing which takes really good care of it's animals.
Horses outside of horse racing are not cart horses, they are owned by people who also care for them and use them to ride them around the field, play polo, go showjumping, go hunting, all historical pursuits for human leisure purposes.
Someone going roaring that, I dunno, 500 horses died in horse racing is purely to try get a sport banned that they don't agree with. I would argue a higher percentage of horses die in the hands of the amatuer than the professionals.
Fair play for being honest and airing your view but as you say you are against horses being used for sport yet you are asking purely about horse racing.
Nowadays if horses aren't used for sport what are they used for ?
Meat0 -
No it isn't, mine makes sense, yours doesn't.
My point is people asking the question are doing so to specifically knock the sport of horse racing which takes really good care of it's animals.
Horses outside of horse racing are not cart horses, they are owned by people who also care for them and use them to ride them around the field, play polo, go showjumping, go hunting, all historical pursuits for human leisure purposes.
Someone going roaring that, I dunno, 500 horses died in horse racing is purely to try get a sport banned that they don't agree with. I would argue a higher percentage of horses die in the hands of the amatuer than the professionals.
Fair play for being honest and airing your view but as you say you are against horses being used for sport yet you are asking purely about horse racing.
Nowadays if horses aren't used for sport what are they used for ?
Meat.0 -
Silly Gilly wrote: »Never decline? That is some statement. I'm afraid it is already in decline as can be seen from this FT article
https://www.ft.com/content/0abef1d7-7fb3-4f40-abed-d8aed4c8285b
People here wondered why the Bristish authorities were so critical on Elliott. They know the precarious position the industry is in. They don't need this bad publicity.
But sure you lads keep on pretending that everything is fine and that Gordon will be back on ITV with his big dopey grin.
You are offended that he sat on a dead horse but you find it acceptable to attack another person's appearance??? Something is gone wrong here when a dead animal has more rights than a living person.0 -
Widdensushi wrote: »You are offended that he sat on a dead horse but you find it acceptable to attack another person's appearance??? Something is gone wrong here when a dead animal has more rights than a living person.
Clutching at straws there.0 -
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Curse These Metal Hands wrote: »Clutching at straws there.
That people are looking for things to be offended at?
That many people regard animals higher than humans?
That most people disregard that there are too many people in the world?
That most people had little reaction to the fact that they were eating horse unknown to them 10 years ago
That millions will starve if that doesn't happen going forward.
That a photo of a person sitting on a dead horse makes no difference to the horses quality of life but it has changed not only that persons life but alot of people's lives in that business etc, can we start a gofundme for those people who have suddenly lost their livelihood because some unnamed individual found an old photo????0 -
I’ve been critical of Elliott and the whole fiasco but at this stage, some of what’s been said is just unreal. There’s rumours of a 2 year ban, Russell taking over etc but absolutely nobody knows what’s happening and anybody claiming to know is just lying.
I’ve not gone on twitter or Facebook all evening because there’s no point, it’s the same arguments and threats over and over again. I said the other day on this thread that the biggest punishment Elliott would face is losing his horses and that has happened. I don’t think anybody really expected things to blow up as much as they have. Whatever way you want to look at it, his career is in flames and unfortunately some of his staff will probably be left go even if someone takes over the yard, they’re still going to be down 20+ horses and good ones at that so there’ll be less money coming into the yard in every way.
Do I think what he did was wrong? Yes it was diabolical no matter what anyone says. Anyone says different and they’re only lying to themselves. Do I think he’s suffered enough? Absolutely, he deserved criticism but as others have alluded to, things have gone too far and it’s just a witch hunt now plain and simple. Too many people with no background or understanding of the sport have weighed in and that’s allowed because it’s mainstream news more or less everywhere but the sheer volume of people calling for a lifetime ban, close the yard etc is just unreal and it’s bandwagon jumping at its finest. Unfortunately for Gordon society at the moment have nothing else to do, they’re bored so they latched on to this story and drive it wild.
Do I think he deserves to be left alone now? Yes, people have made their point and it’s tiresome now. I’m glad nothing else has come out because he doesn’t need it and the industry certainly doesn’t need it. Friday can’t come quick enough for everyone at this stage I suspect because once the IHRB make their decision and implement whatever punishment they decide on, that should be that. Draw a line under it and move on. Racing fans will obviously still be talking about it for the foreseeable but Joe public will find something else to be enraged about by the weekend once the IHRB rule and everyone can get on with the Cheltenham countdown and that can’t come quick enough for all concerned. Gordon aside obviously.0 -
At some stage the cruelty to humans has gone alot further to that than the dead animal, obviously deserves a punishment but this is ridiculous0
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Widdensushi wrote: »That people are looking for things to be offended at?
That many people regard animals higher than humans?
That most people disregard that there are too many people in the world?
That most people had little reaction to the fact that they were eating horse unknown to them 10 years ago
That millions will starve if that doesn't happen going forward.
That a photo of a person sitting on a dead horse makes no difference to the horses quality of life but it has changed not only that persons life but alot of people's lives in that business etc, can we start a gofundme for those people who have suddenly lost their livelihood because some unnamed individual found an old photo????
No idea what any of that is about. I'm talking about you equating to someone referring to a person's smile as being worse than the photo.
But sure, start a GoFundMe for Gordon there, thanks for the laugh.0 -
Curse These Metal Hands wrote: »No idea what any of that is about. I'm talking about you equating to someone referring to a person's smile as being worse than han the photo.
But sure, start a GoFundMe for Gordon there, thanks for the laugh.
Most people are carnivores? I presume you aren't, do you regard him sitting on it worse than me eating it and which of us should be punished more?0 -
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It's absolutely nuts, I am feeling the lockdown frustration myself but there are better people to aim it at, when you see what's happening in France and realise we are paying hundreds of thousands for a man in the cupboard without a bank account, it puts in perspective that people's lives should not be ruined for a single photo opportunity, especially if they have a bank account and are employing many people.0
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Widdensushi wrote: »Most people are carnivores? I presume you aren't, do you regard him sitting on it worse than me eating it and which of us should be punished more?
I don't know a single carnivore. Again, I was just questioning your suggestion that saying someone has a dopey grin is worse than sitting on a dead horse that was in your care. Dopey grin is hardly a soul crushing insult.0 -
Curse These Metal Hands wrote: »I don't know a single carnivore.
Well that explains alot, while I respect your way of life I am sceptical of that statement, your parents? Either way you must live very sheltered from the general population.0 -
Widdensushi wrote: »Well that explains alot, while I respect your way of life I am sceptical of that statement, your parents? Either way you must live very sheltered from the general population.
No, my parents eat meat along with veg. I don't know anyone that eats only meat. Sounds unhealthy.0 -
Elliott and the IHRB have made a mess of dealing with the fall out.
Elliott - insulting first response just angers more people and then Russell sent out to score a few own goals.
But the IHRB should not have kicked this down the road for a week, it's just allows more backlash to build and hysteria to grow. Monday morning Elliott should have been in front of them, every detail told, ban (maybe 6 months?) and a fine going to animal charity. Part time or not, this needed nipping in the bud immediately but they're a group of feet draggers. They where surely in conversation with the BHA Monday, and the BHA likely didn't like what they heard so they came out first while IHRB decided when they could meet.
He disappears for the six months, the hysteria dies down. There would still be backlash from some but most would have accepted that and it could have all moved on. Next you move on to redeeming him, media appearances down the road he shows remorse etc. etc. a few tears on the Late Late and it's sorted. Reputation takes a knock, he loses some of the horses but his business stays intact.0 -
Curse These Metal Hands wrote: »No, my parents eat meat along with veg. I don't know anyone that eats only meat. Sounds unhealthy.
Apologies, I thought anyone who ate meat was a carnivore but I was wrong.0 -
Beechwoodspark wrote: »Was talking to a lad with connections to the yard earlier. Said the whole place is like a morgue, people openly crying as the horses leave for other trainers. despairing for the future of their jobs.
GE is staying very quiet, consulting with his advisors (1 in particular) and has been keeping the head down. He knows he’s getting a suspension and no point denying it.
Have to feel for the staff and others who feel the knock on effect. Such a high rate of depression in the industry at ground level as it is. Hopefully this incident doesn’t lead to something worse.0 -
When I first saw the photo bad as it was did not think it would lead to all the ramifications that appear to be unfolding .The amount of people suffering consequences over this is huge feel for the staff a moment of stupidity is all it takes to change everything for people .0
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Curse These Metal Hands wrote: »I don't know a single carnivore. Again, I was just questioning your suggestion that saying someone has a dopey grin is worse than sitting on a dead horse that was in your care. Dopey grin is hardly a soul crushing insult.
So there must be no butchers shop in your area and the Tescos’ you shop in must have no shelves / cold areas selling meat products?0 -
Field east wrote: »So there must be no butchers shop in your area and the Tescos’ you shop in must have no shelves / cold areas selling meat products?
A carnivore /ˈkɑːrnɪvɔːr/, meaning "meat eater" (Latin, caro, genitive carnis, meaning "meat" or "flesh" and vorare meaning "to devour"), is an animal whose food and energy requirements derive solely from animal tissue or meat, whether through hunting or scavenging
Not sure too many carnivores roam around Tesco or the local butchers0 -
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Omnivore is the term for a human who eats both meat and vegetables.afaik
A vegetarian only eats meat.
A carnivore is a wolf etc who just eat meat.0 -
I’ve been critical of Elliott and the whole fiasco but at this stage, some of what’s been said is just unreal. There’s rumours of a 2 year ban, Russell taking over etc but absolutely nobody knows what’s happening and anybody claiming to know is just lying.
I’ve not gone on twitter or Facebook all evening because there’s no point, it’s the same arguments and threats over and over again. I said the other day on this thread that the biggest punishment Elliott would face is losing his horses and that has happened. I don’t think anybody really expected things to blow up as much as they have. Whatever way you want to look at it, his career is in flames and unfortunately some of his staff will probably be left go even if someone takes over the yard, they’re still going to be down 20+ horses and good ones at that so there’ll be less money coming into the yard in every way.
Do I think what he did was wrong? Yes it was diabolical no matter what anyone says. Anyone says different and they’re only lying to themselves. Do I think he’s suffered enough? Absolutely, he deserved criticism but as others have alluded to, things have gone too far and it’s just a witch hunt now plain and simple. Too many people with no background or understanding of the sport have weighed in and that’s allowed because it’s mainstream news more or less everywhere but the sheer volume of people calling for a lifetime ban, close the yard etc is just unreal and it’s bandwagon jumping at its finest. Unfortunately for Gordon society at the moment have nothing else to do, they’re bored so they latched on to this story and drive it wild.
Do I think he deserves to be left alone now? Yes, people have made their point and it’s tiresome now. I’m glad nothing else has come out because he doesn’t need it and the industry certainly doesn’t need it. Friday can’t come quick enough for everyone at this stage I suspect because once the IHRB make their decision and implement whatever punishment they decide on, that should be that. Draw a line under it and move on. Racing fans will obviously still be talking about it for the foreseeable but Joe public will find something else to be enraged about by the weekend once the IHRB rule and everyone can get on with the Cheltenham countdown and that can’t come quick enough for all concerned. Gordon aside obviously.
This whole situation has gone completely over the top. It is not who we are. What has happened to us ? Are we not a complete contradiction, becoming a laughing stock, etc,etc. i’ll Make the following points :-
(1) the man/ company employs circa 80 people - a lot who have families, mortgages, etc. The keyboard warriors/ media are well on the way to probably bankrupting the business.
(2) nobody knows the overall context surrounding the event or the state of mind of GE at the time. For example, he got up very early that morning and maybe also the previous mornings, may have long working days, has extra pressure at work because of Covid etc, etc,etc, He happened to make/receive a call on mobile and it was an opportunity to sit down someplace to take a rest and take the ‘ weight off his feet’ for a few minutes. There being nothing immediately around to sit on except a dead horse. And , seriously, if he sat on the horse side saddle style I assume the public response would have been different.
(3) as one would drive through the countryside , especially during winter, you will come across horses in fields of muck and looking miserable, thin, etc,etc,
No sign of a similar response from the public
(4) the diabolical treatment of LIVE horses by the sulky ‘enthusiasts’ . Most look underfed and are driven on roads at breakneck speed and if they fall are left to die on the spot and ABANDONED there. No sign of an outbreak on a national disgust - PC and snowflakes come to mind
(4) nobody questioned how GE and his staff treat the horses in their care while they are ALIVE. I would argue that the treatment is top drawer. Why? Because the sole objective by all is to win races/ be well placed. So anything to help/ aid that objective being achieved will , IMO will be done. So why was one small slip- we are all human- that did not break any law put WAY AHEAD of this point.
‘Those upset ‘even ignored it as irrelevant - the man sat on a dead horse and he should not have . THAT IS THE POINT AND DO’NT TRY TO DEFLECT FROM THE SERIOUSNESS OF THE POINT !!!!!
(5) this point about people being upset because of their love of horses - especially amongst racing circles. Would the same type of empathy apply if no horse won a race. IMO the horse is the vehicle that is used by the racing fraternity as a means to another end and not to be bred, fed and trained as something to love. They are bred, fed, trained and raced to MAKE MONEY.
(6) if there was any maltreatment of horses in GE yard he would be reported fairly shortly to GE himself /senior stake/ the horse owners/ reporters etc. the racing fraternity is a very small world so his yard would not get away with it for very long.
(7) I was very surprised by the number of people in the racing industry interviewed - especially Tracy Piggott and all the jockeys that did not speak too kindly of one of their own. I’m sure they have experienced much worse and choose to sing dumb. A hidden agenda came to mind. IMO the general response was very unbalanced.
(8) the greyhound industry was ‘ dragged over the coals ‘ big time recently by RTE Discovers programme about how the greyhound industry deals with dogs gone past their ‘sell by’ date. The Greyhound industry have a similar fraternity as the horse one - they ‘LOVE ‘ their dogs. Yet the horse loving keyboard warriors have no desire to have a similar exercise do in relation to the broad horse industry.
(9) how come nobody is asking the question as to how a horse that , for example dies on a race course is handled , where it ends up. The word JCB, crane , rope carcass trailor comes to mind. Also , why are dead horses on a race course shielded from public view by a tarpaulin like surround?
(10) employees in the horse industry- especially the yard workers and similar who are not well paid - are ‘ happy ‘ to be there because of the satisfaction of looking after the property of some notary/business person and maybe even meet the person some day - and if they get promotion they get the opportunity of leading a horse to the winners enclosure. Also there is a great buzz around the yard in the expection of the stable doing well from week to week, new owners coming on board, etc, etc. so Again, the HORSE IS AGAIN USED BY EMPLOYEES AS A MEANS TO A N END0 -
Elliott and the IHRB have made a mess of dealing with the fall out.
Elliott - insulting first response just angers more people and then Russell sent out to score a few own goals.
But the IHRB should not have kicked this down the road for a week, it's just allows more backlash to build and hysteria to grow. Monday morning Elliott should have been in front of them, every detail told, ban (maybe 6 months?) and a fine going to animal charity. Part time or not, this needed nipping in the bud immediately but they're a group of feet draggers. They where surely in conversation with the BHA Monday, and the BHA likely didn't like what they heard so they came out first while IHRB decided when they could meet.
He disappears for the six months, the hysteria dies down. There would still be backlash from some but most would have accepted that and it could have all moved on. Next you move on to redeeming him, media appearances down the road he shows remorse etc. etc. a few tears on the Late Late and it's sorted. Reputation takes a knock, he loses some of the horses but his business stays intact.
I agree, they totally misread the situation. Had they been swift and acted Monday in Ireland - Handed him a ban and a fine, it would have sealed it for a lot of people, shows over it is what it is. The BHA was cute enough to act swiftly, albeit easier as it wasn’t on their floor. Here there was radio silence all Monday, the authorities dithered and in the mean time sponsors and owners walked and the rage of social media set the agenda. Poor show.0 -
You make a few good points, but I disagree with your comment that owners are in the sport/business to make money.Field east wrote: »(5) this point about people being upset because of their love of horses - especially amongst racing circles. Would the same type of empathy apply if no horse won a race. IMO the horse is the vehicle that is used by the racing fraternity as a means to another end and not to be bred, fed and trained as something to love. They are bred, fed, trained and raced to MAKE MONEY.
I have three thoroughbreds.
My costs so far have been about 60k, with a return of 2k for a two year old filly sold.
I analysed the subsequent racing careers of 450+ yearlings sold at an auction.
This was a lengthy task as yearling are sold unnamed, and I had to first find the name each was given.
The average loss (auction price less race earnings) was 4.5k.
Add on to that loss about two years training at a minimum of 20k a year, or another 40k loss.
That gives, on average, a loss of about 45k on each of 450+ yearlings.
One horse won eight races; 2 horses won seven; 9 horses won five; 12 horses won four; 20 horses won three; 29 horses won two; 71 horses won one race.
320 of the 450 did not win a race.
Of the 450+ horses about ten made a small profit, and the top three horses (out of 450+) made before training costs 519k, 594k, 1,105k.
My conclusion: three horses out of 450+ made money.0 -
Any thoughts on Escaria Tens handicap mark being left unchanged?0
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rolling boh wrote: »When I first saw the photo bad as it was did not think it would lead to all the ramifications that appear to be unfolding .The amount of people suffering consequences over this is huge feel for the staff a moment of stupidity is all it takes to change everything for people .
I think the reason there have been so many consequences is that people aren't sure if it was indeed a moment of madness, or the curtain slipping on what many have suspected to be systemic bad practices in the horse racing industry.
Davy Russell wasn't exactly subtle about punching the horse live on tv. GE is asking us to believe it was a moment of madness, but he also asked us to believe he absent-mindedly sat down on the nearest hard surface to take a call. The subsequent videos of Rob James don't help his cause.
Personally I think a ban, fine, and the resulting loss of earnings and reputation are sufficient, but I kind of get why some people want it taken further from an industry perspective. Whether its correct for GE to be the symbol of that further action is for debate, but its not going away anytime soon I think.0 -
The Tetrarch wrote: »You make a few good points, but I disagree with your comment that owners are in the sport/business to make money.
I have three thoroughbreds.
My costs so far have been about 60k, with a return of 2k for a two year old filly sold.
I analysed the subsequent racing careers of 450+ yearlings sold at an auction.
This was a lengthy task as yearling are sold unnamed, and I had to first find the name each was given.
The average loss (auction price less race earnings) was 4.5k.
Add on to that loss about two years training at a minimum of 20k a year, or another 40k loss.
That gives, on average, a loss of about 45k on each of 450+ yearlings.
One horse won eight races; 2 horses won seven; 9 horses won five; 12 horses won four; 20 horses won three; 29 horses won two; 71 horses won one race.
320 of the 450 did not win a race.
Of the 450+ horses about ten made a small profit, and the top three horses (out of 450+) made before training costs 519k, 594k, 1,105k.
My conclusion: three horses out of 450+ made money.
I accept what you are saying. I was thinking more about the trainers, jockeys and staff involved along with service/ product providers . There is absolutely wrong with people / company’s making money fairly - its great for the individuals , the economy and especially in local and remote areas.
Of course a lot of , for example, a lot of racehorse owners are in it for the enjoyment of it and well and good if a race or two or three or four are won. It’s a great social occasion for many and there is always something to look forward to by owning a racehorse. Long may it be the case.
So we should leave GE alone. He has been subjected to enough . He will be back a lot of income, has ‘inherited’ a damaged reputation - handed to him by a very judgement public and will take - which will take a while to restore unless he up sticks altogether, leave some staff go.
As a side issue, did we do the same to Alan Shatter, Francis Fitzgerald and to some extent Phil Hogan. What Ursela Van Der Lyon did re the vaccine and the UK , IMO was MUCH MUCH more serious and she remains untouched. I hope that what she has done does not lead to another outbreak of more serious violence in the North . The news this morning was not good in that certain groups want the GFA scrapped and may go very far in trying to achieve that aim.
I am not into horses in any shape or form , have had no business with GE and I have never met the man I am just into fair and balanced treatment especially in relation to this case - so think about the 80 employees and VERY IMPORTANT, nobody got killed or physically injured or money stolen from them. The only one ‘hurted ‘ here are the 80 staff and GE0 -
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More important question, is he a herbivore, carnivore or an omnivore?
Am very bad at those six mark questions. Could she / he/it be all three - depending what day of the week it is. I am trying to be as inclusive as I can here giving the PC snowflake environment we live in at the moment0
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