COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

ACitizenErased

astrofool wrote: »

ACitizenErased, posters like this is the reason why severe side effects are unacceptable (unless specifically called out in the documentation, as clearly some medicines, such as chemotherapy do cause issues in cases where the patient is already ill anyway, vaccines are intended for the healthy public), and it's why I brought it back up this morning, as the difference in approval is subtle, but it is there. Medicines such as vacines get approved for everyone, if used according to the guidelines, there will be no risk of severe side effects.



You are understanding what this means wrongly.

Okay, just ignore the EMA saying we can keep using it, whatever floats your boat.

RavenBea17b

Vacciworld Twitter quite informative in that collating data.
So figures from the Vacciworld tweet 2 days ago are as follows :
Pfizer, AZ and Blood Clots UK numbers
Pulmonary Embolism
PF- 15
AZ-13

Non Specific thrombosis
PF- 10
AZ- 3

DVT
PF - 8
AZ - 14

Thrombophlebitis
PF-4
AZ-1

*NO causality* established between blood clots and either vaccine.
(Vaccinations are 55% PF and 45% AZ)

Summary from Vacciworld, figures from Yellow card data.

The data are from the MHRA's weekly summary of the Yellow Card reporting - Annex1 Vaccine Analysis Print

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting#yellow-card-reports

stefanovich

astrofool wrote: »

ACitizenErased, posters like this is the reason why severe side effects are unacceptable (unless specifically called out in the documentation, as clearly some medicines, such as chemotherapy do cause issues in cases where the patient is already ill anyway, vaccines are intended for the healthy public), and it's why I brought it back up this morning, as the difference in approval is subtle, but it is there. Medicines such as vacines get approved for everyone, if used according to the guidelines, there will be no risk of severe side effects.



You are understanding what this means wrongly.

Don't conflate low risk with no risk. Not the same.

My question still stands and is a valid one.

When do they plan to have all the over 70s vaccinated? I know it is not set in stone but I was on to my own gp and they were only doing 80 -84 at the weekend. Seems so slow.

astrofool

stefanovich wrote: »

Don't conflate low risk with no risk. Not the same.

My question still stands and is a valid one.

There is no known severe side effects for the individual (up to and including death) of the currently approved vaccines.

astrofool

RavenBea17b wrote: »

Vacciworld Twitter quite informative in that collating data.
So figures from the Vacciworld tweet 2 days ago are as follows :
Pfizer, AZ and Blood Clots UK numbers
Pulmonary Embolism
PF- 15
AZ-13

Non Specific thrombosis
PF- 10
AZ- 3

DVT
PF - 8
AZ - 14

Thrombophlebitis
PF-4
AZ-1

*NO causality* established between blood clots and either vaccine.
(Vaccinations are 55% PF and 45% AZ)

Summary from Vacciworld, figures from Yellow card data.

The data are from the MHRA's weekly summary of the Yellow Card reporting - Annex1 Vaccine Analysis Print

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting#yellow-card-reports

The data is weak, but not non-existent, the reason it's become an issue is because of the clusters of cases, which have a low probability of occurring naturally. The overall numbers are not what's been investigated (as they already know they are in line with normal levels in society).

RavenBea17b

Thanks,
Clusters do indeed need to be reviewed. But thought I would add some of the ongoing results.

timsey tiger

astrofool wrote: »

The data is weak, but not non-existent, the reason it's become an issue is because of the clusters of cases, which have a very low probability of occurring naturally. The overall numbers are not what's been investigated (as they already know they are in line with normal levels in society).

That is not actually correct.

Sure, if you said before hand lets check this specific batch before hand, the probability of a cluster would be very low.

However if you have thousands of batches the probability of one of them having a cluster will be relatively large. Infact if you have enough batches the prob. will tend to one, i.e. certainty.

All that being said, clusters should still be investigated. A lack of clusters would also be a worry, as it might be an indication of a cover up.

NeuralNetwork

Deleted User wrote: »

When do they plan to have all the over 70s vaccinated? I know it is not set in stone but I was on to my own gp and they were only doing 80 -84 at the weekend. Seems so slow.

It’s slow but it’s not going to remain that way if the volumes of vaccines supplied increases. You can’t just assume the pace will be this slow over the next few months.

We’ll at some point see all the 37 vaccination centres operating at full capacity and probably Janssen and AstraZeneca, potentially even the mRNA vaccines being delivered by pharmacies. So it will be faster in the next cohorts unless the EU programme is a total disaster, which isn’t looking likely tbh. There’s enormous political pressure on to get this done ASAP

rameire

Deleted User wrote: »

When do they plan to have all the over 70s vaccinated? I know it is not set in stone but I was on to my own gp and they were only doing 80 -84 at the weekend. Seems so slow.

Over 75's are to officially start this week.
over 70's from March 29th.
3 weeks per group. so last over 70's should get first dose by 19th April.
So second doses should then be finished 4 weeks later on 20th May.

astrofool

timsey tiger wrote: »

That is not actually correct.

Sure, if you said before hand lets check this specific batch before hand, the probability of a cluster would be very low.

However if you have thousands of batches the probability of one of them having a cluster will be relatively large. Infact if you have enough batches the prob. will tend to one, i.e. certainty.

All that being said, clusters sholud still be investigated. A lack of clusters would also be a worry, as it might be an indication of a cover up.

Exactly, I'd imagine part of this was because the chance of having such a cluster so soon into rollout is very low, and then to see another cluster in another country (which may be only getting attention due to the severe case in the first cluster). The cost of pausing right now is zero for most countries due to supply.

And as others have said, there will likely be other pauses (just as there were pauses during the trials).

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

The data is weak, but not non-existent, the reason it's become an issue is because of the clusters of cases, which have a low probability of occurring naturally. The overall numbers are not what's been investigated (as they already know they are in line with normal levels in society).

Clusters of cases may have a low probability of occurring, but in vaccinating 10's of millions of people apparent clusters will emerge, even if there is no effect.

Given the amount of data there should now be, it should take no more than a few days to resolve this, which in all likelyhood will conclude - no issue - random clusters at background levels, but has the potential to conclude that in certain conditions thrombosis is a risk to certain groups - like many other drugs including ibuprofen

RavenBea17b

Think I read that Thailand is resuming vaccinations tomorrow after review of data. Still, it is always prudent to clarify data etc.

seamus

My gut feeling is that a large part of this pause is an attempt to get ahead of misinformation, get ahead of political mischief.

If they just ignored this and kept vaccinating, then it would become a question on social media - "there are cluster of clotting and the EU are just ignoring it and continuing".
This would move into parliaments - Stephen Donnelly being asked what the government's opinion is on this "blood clotting issue with some vaccines" and why the HSE is continuing to vaccinate without addressing the issue.

This can have a snowball effect; people become wary not only of AZ but of ALL the vaccines.

All of the data, as above, suggests that this is just random noise. I see people online calling the pause a ridiculous over-reaction, a result of fearmongering being allowed to stop the process.

But what NIAC have done now is cut the legs off anyone who would use this to sow discord. We have investigated the blood clot thing, and it's not caused by the vaccine. Off we go vaccinating again unemcumbered by sh1t-stirrers and fearmongers.

The delays are regrettable for those due to be vaccinated this week, but won't actually impact the rollout at all. Our vaccination numbers next week will be double what they were supposed to be and then we're back on track.

Dr. Em

There is nothing incompatible in saying that the Astra-Zeneca vaccine is well-tolerated and safe for the general public and saying that some individuals may not tolerate it as well. How many people do you know who have ever had a strange reaction to a medicine? They found out early on that Pfizer could cause an allergic reaction in some people who have a history of anaphylaxis, and now all the vaccinators ask about any allergies before administering the vaccine. Judging by the number of Astra-Zeneca vaccines that have been successfully administered, there is most likely nothing wrong with the vaccine in general or individual batches. But they could find out that a very few number of people, maybe with certain conditions or taking certain medications, should not take the vaccine without more precautions. Maybe they will start handing out compression socks as they do after operations. This is exactly the sort of thing you would expect to come to light in real-world applications rather than in clinical trials. I have no objection to a brief pause to see if they can make the vaccine even safer.

NeuralNetwork

To be honest, I think the political or sociological conspiracy theories are probably way, way beyond this. It’s without doubt a technical issue that’s been identified, but I think in general you need to be and be seen to be totally above political pressure as a regulatory agency to inspire confidence.

If you look at the panic about the Boeing 737 Max, a lot of that centres around questions about “regulatory capture.” When you’ve a fearsome and fearless FAA that regulates without any deference to market pressure, political pressure or airline or manufacturers throwing hissyfit, you have confidence in it.

If the medical products regulators were more worried about a political storm or a public backlash about delays rather than being able to press pause, I would definitely have less confidence in them.

What they’re showing here is they’ve independence and a backbone.

RavenBea17b

Does anyone have a link to criteria used - what counts as a Covid death for each EU country. - UK for example states any death after 28 days of a positive Covid test is counted - this in theory could be due a role Covid had.
I have seen a paper that had published a wee while ago from LSE (I think) commented on WHO criteria. The variance of level per million of testing across the EU, UK.

As I foresee regular testing with booster shots in place for future, a bigger review may be needed to 'harmonise' approach testing.

What are your thoughts on this?

JTMan

Reuters reports here that EU governments were considering launching talks with Sputnik V developers.

- Italian plant likely to produce vaccine Sputnik V but plant owner says they will produce other vaccines too.
- It was not clear whether states that have ordered Sputnik V in bilateral deals would be interested in joint EU procurement.
- Some EU leaders say Russia is using vaccines for propaganda purposes.
- Mario Draghi has said EU must buy more doses including from outside the bloc, and expand vaccine production.
- EMA approval of Sputnik V could come in May.
- Berlin and other countries discussing Sputnik V production.

NeuralNetwork

I’ll say one thing though is the EU relying on Russian vaccines is a massive indictment of Trump and America first. The EU vaccine production capacity has been supporting huge numbers of countries, including American immediate neighbours, Canada and Mexico and a whole raft of others too.

There should have been burden sharing between the two, but there wasn’t as America First applied, so now you’re going to see US soft power handed to Russia and China.

There should have been joint effort across the entire west and anyone else who wanted to join in, but that isn’t what’s happened.

Biden hasn’t really changed those approaches so, I guess this is the new look Fortress America approach to international relations.

It also leaves questions about allowing supply chains to be dominated by US companies like that again. I could see a lot of strategic focus, including in Canada, to ensure domestic supplies are always possible.

timsey tiger

JTMan wrote: »

Reuters reports here that EU governments were considering launching talks with Sputnik V developers.

- Italian plant likely to produce vaccine Sputnik V but plant owner says they will produce other vaccines too.
- It was not clear whether states that have ordered Sputnik V in bilateral deals would be interested in joint EU procurement.
- Some EU leaders say Russia is using vaccines for propaganda purposes.
- Mario Draghi has said EU must buy more doses including from outside the bloc, and expand vaccine production.
- EMA approval of Sputnik V could come in May.
- Berlin and other countries discussing Sputnik V production.

I think that an aweful lot of this sputnik talk is just Russian propaganda and general psyops type shyte. Like the "German company" is Russian owned. When is this supply going to come online 2023?

average_runner

stephenjmcd wrote: »

But you said the side affects of AZ were worse than the others which isn't the case. You can get those with any of the vaccines, Pfizer, Moderna or AZ.

People have had those symptoms with them all & some have had no side effects. Everyone's different but the possible effects are the same. Most common being fatigue, temp and chills, sore arm etc

Well none of the people I know suffered near as bad with the pfizer one.


I agree some will suffer more than others.


Looking at the flu jab, most of my family suffer when they get it, none suffered on pfizer. Friends who never suffered with flu jab have struggled massively on AZ.


Its part and parcel of the jab, not anti jab

timsey tiger

average_runner wrote: »

Well none of the people I know suffered near as bad with the pfizer one.


I agree some will suffer more than others.


Looking at the flu jab, most of my family suffer when they get it, none suffered on pfizer. Friends who never suffered with flu jab have struggled massively on AZ.


Its part and parcel of the jab, not anti jab

Apparently, the second pfizer one causes a bit more of a reaction. Not much of an issue either way, for the vast plurality and a short lived discomfort for the unlucky few.

marno21

Would be a much better idea for the EU to negotiate between this Italian plant and either Janssen or Oxford/AstraZeneca and use it to produce one of theirs which is the same kind of vaccine as Sputnik V. The second dose of the Sputnik V vaccine and the Janssen vaccine are the same viral vector.

is_that_so

timsey tiger wrote: »

More would be great, how would this work?

However little they do send us, it's unaffected by this pause.

IRISHSPORTSGUY

10 million AZ doses getting unlocked for the EU when the Netherlands factory is given clearance on March 25th. That means 100k doses for Ireland. We'll be jabbing large number at the beginning of April with those new doses and the stockpile built up from the suspension.

Then the Johnson & Johnson deliveries begin mid-April and the yield from the new Pfizer factory in Germany, plus increased numbers from Moderna.

It's always darkest before the dawn

ACitizenErased

Germany has now suspended use of the AZ vaccine

RavenBea17b

average_runner wrote: »

Well none of the people I know suffered near as bad with the pfizer one.


I agree some will suffer more than others.


Looking at the flu jab, most of my family suffer when they get it, none suffered on pfizer. Friends who never suffered with flu jab have struggled massively on AZ.


Its part and parcel of the jab, not anti jab

I understood the second jab of Pfizer has had reports of flu type symptoms, headaches etc when the first dose had no side effects.

I think it is best to treat each jab as they come. It is an different for each of us, for each jab.

timsey tiger

is_that_so wrote: »

However little they do send us, it's unaffected by this pause.

The same is the new more. A welcome change from less, which is all we've been hearing recently, I suppose.

ACitizenErased

Moderna's first participants for their next generation vaccine were dosed today.

"mRNA-1283 is Moderna’s attempt at refrigerator stable mRNA vaccine that help facilitate easier distribution and administration in a wider range of settings, including potentially for developing countries."

Sweet.Science

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

10 million AZ doses getting unlocked for the EU when the Netherlands factory is given clearance on March 25th. That means 100k doses for Ireland. We'll be jabbing large number at the beginning of April with those new doses and the stockpile built up from the suspension.

Then the Johnson & Johnson deliveries begin mid-April and the yield from the new Pfizer factory in Germany, plus increased numbers from Moderna.

It's always darkest before the dawn

Do you have a link to this ?