Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456061#Comment_120456061

You were asked for examples of Unionist culture and hand-waved claiming you'd provided them. Where? You can look at your own previous posts if you have actually posted them.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456061#Comment_120456061

There are distinct Irish cultures in literature, music and the visual arts.

Unionism does not have a distinct culture outside of that.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456029#Comment_120456029

And yet you can't give a single example of alleged Unionist culture after being asked multiple times. I think this is ancillary to the thread now so I'll just stop asking.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456122#Comment_120456122

I agree we should put this to bed.

you said nationalists had a rich culture and unionists did not.

I asked you to give me some examples of this rich nationalist culture

you haven’t and instead keep asking me for examples of unionist culture.

so yes it is going nowhere

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456102#Comment_120456102

Nobody was talking about Irish culture francie - but nice try anyhow.

I think you are agreeing with me, painful as you may find that, ie nationalists and unionists both have about the same amount of culture, as do other groups.

it scuppers this need by some to put down my community on every way possible - even suggesting we have no culture.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456259#Comment_120456259

I didn’t say you had no culture.

You are a part of Irish culture. As much as the Wolfe Tones or Michael Longley are.

Nationalists are happy to be called Irish culturally but belligerent Unionism are not. A recent phenomenon.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456281#Comment_120456281

Francie. I would love to help you work on your prejudice. Do you want help? I could point out to you each time it shines through and you could reflect on my observations. That last post of yours would give us good material to get started on. You should treat my observations as gifts that you could do with what you wish. How about it?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456281#Comment_120456281

I was going to post along these lines before I saw this post. There is no specific Nationalist culture, it is really just a subset of general Irish culture. I would say the exact same is true of Unionist culture. The history Unionists celebrate is the history of the island of Ireland and far more recognised and even respected by Irish people than by British people.

You could also say it is also part the history of Britain but is nothing more than a footnote in British history and not something the population of Britain care about. Most British people aren't even aware of the events Unionists celebrate. Tell your average Brit that you celebrate your Britishness by wearing orange in memory of a Dutch king and burning hundreds of pallets is the middle of summer, and they would look at you like you have two heads.

Sam Russell

Of course Unionists have a culture.

As Ian Paisley famously shouted - 'Ulster say NO!' I think that sums up their culture. 'NEVER!, NEVER!, NEVER!' is another example of Ian Paisley's culture exclamations. It is not that they have no culture, their culture is 'NO' to everything.

The culture of Ulster Unionism is to be against - not for - anything related to Ireland and Catholics - no matter what the harm done to themselves - Brexit being a prime example.

Now while there might have been some justification pre-GFA, that can no longer be a justifiable position.

Ireland has changed utterly in the last 25 years, while NI has regressed into a more divided and sectarian society. Ireland has welcomed a huge number of non-Irish immigrants, many of whom have become Irish citizens and have Irish children. Ireland has become a more tolerant place for all. NI has built higher 'Peace walls' to keep the opposing sides apart - and then made them higher again.

What a waste of a peace.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456878#Comment_120456878

Point of order but I disagree Northern Ireland has regressed. I think politically yes it has, 100%. And that's part of the problem.

But society? The DUP's increasing problem is the opposite: young, liberal minded Northern Irish are coming along and rightly wondering wtf is with these belligerent, homophobic, sexist malcontents? 25 years after a transformative change, many have been born into, asking reasonable questions about What Next?. I posted it already but I think this generation was ably exemplified by Sorcha Eastwood's exasperation at this very notion.

Eventually ordinary issues have to take hold, and by all accounts the DUP won't be the ones to deal with them.

https://twitter.com/Awkconpod/status/1638807595803607040

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456636#Comment_120456636

Go ahead.

What you will do is give us a version of your culture that is peculiarly Irish and would be recognised as such around the world. i.e. An Irish Unionist's attempt to define themselves without using the word Irish or by insisting that it is British, which is a recent phenomenon, born of insecurity.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456967#Comment_120456967

Well, this is a political thread, and it is reasonable to look at NI from a political standpoint, and it is reasonable to state the NI has regressed.

The Eighth Amendment in 1983 was a prime example of Ireland's political regression, but it could be looked on the last sting of the dying wasp.

Brexit, and the DUP's approach is the example of regression. Let us hope there will be a change soon.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457003#Comment_120457003

Francie what I would like to help you with is your blind spots eg. You say “Nationalists are happy to be called Irish culturally but belligerent Unionism are not.”

let me hold a mirror up to you.

‘Unionists are happy to be called British culturally but belligerent nationalists are not’.

now how does that mirror image of your statement sit with you?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457020#Comment_120457020

There is an aspect of my Irish culture that is British, I have already said that, but your blindspot missed that. There is also other cultural influences in the mix. My grandfather was from Glasgow.

An Irish person has no problems saying that either, because they are not insecure about who they are or their identity.

YOU are the guy who pretends he knows little of Ireland, hates the language but speaks it everyday and cannot accept that he is Irish by virtue of geography and where he lives and that he has to chose to identify as British, an identity you could drop tomorrow if you wanted to. That is not a problem your recent ancestors had because they were not riddled with insecurity and need.

FrancieBrady

The lundying of another Unionist voice has begun.

https://twitter.com/JamieBrysonCPNI/status/1644972582997770240

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457043#Comment_120457043

Now francie are you so seriously out of touch that you think ni nationalists are happy to call themselves British and it’s only the belligerent don’t?

I absolutely would not expect them to be comfortable referring to themselves as British - unlike you thinking I’m belligerent if I don’t refer to myself as Irish.

this is what I mean about your blind spots francie. And you are not on your own on here, that’s for sure

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457091#Comment_120457091

They are not British.

The presence and proximity to Britain has had influences on their culture just like it has on yours.

You need to accept that you are culturally a part of a unique Irish culture. Britain didn't create you, Ireland did.

99.99% of the world see you as an Irish phenomenon i.e. Irish Unionists.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456878#Comment_120456878

Guys these are a series of poisoness posts about your neighbours and the people you share this island with. Could you imagine any other grouping saying this stuff about the minority that shares their space. You know what they would be referred to as - I don’t need to tell you. If the English were saying this about the Irish or the Muslims in their midst or the Americans saying it about Mexicans that shared their land mass. Can you guys not see why we are so anti Ui and why we moved away from being able to promote Ui and Irish language. Most of you will only suffer us in your midst, if we agree to drop all our traditions and even then I guess it would be a generation or two until you trusted us.

much of what I read here is just the more honest appraisal of where many republicans and nationalists still are stuck. Things we see openly like the national broadcasters daily call to Roman Catholic prayer, the GAA parade today to mark the ‘martyrs’, The biggest political party on the island openly putting up Irish tricolours this weekend in mixed areas, MLAs TDs and MPs in my town today standing under the sunburst and starry plough flags making speech’s eulogising those who murdered local unionists. This is just the visual aspect (all happening this very day) of what lies underneath and often seeps out on here.

oh my community has got huge problems also of sectarianism, prejudice etc against those sharing the island with us but I clearly recognise and admit that.

Mind you the state broadcaster up here wouldn’t dare lead several times a day with a sectarian call. No sports club (outside GAA) would dare hold a parade for martyrs and invite along a notorious loyalist band. And whilst there may always be occasional unforgivable exceptions you can point to, there will not be masses of unionist politicians out standing under UFF flags eulogising terrorists on our side.

just saying like!

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457165#Comment_120457165

Can't have a discussion about culture without reverting to victimhood. Another peculiarly Irish Unionist thing.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457133#Comment_120457133

I really doubt you believe what you are posting. The place I live has been British for hundreds of years. People have had a very clear absolute right for 25years to vote for their country to become Irish. They haven’t and won’t. People born in ni are by default british but I support 100% their right to become fully Irish. I am 100% British. Of course I describe my identity as northern Irish, British, male, etc and certainly I have been heavily influenced by my neighbouring countries eg Scotland and Ireland as well as American movies etc. if I sign a form or get into trouble abroad I am completely British

but you must get over this need for me to be Irish

I am just making an Ulster fry this minute, it will be distinct from any I get in hotels in roi as it has potatoe bread and soda, but why I raise it is that as I opened the egg’s it made me chuckle. I noticed the chickens were Northern Irish but there overriding is identity is British (top left).

OWC chickens say No! They are no chuckies :)

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457014#Comment_120457014

For sure. It's hand in glove stuff though, demographics will eventually inform politics, the question is when the tipping point occurs. The North is no different to many Western European countries and is liberalising with the rest as young people mature; the political angle here is how dissonant NI Politics are becoming at the coal face. Which yes, I take your POV - just don't agree the country is regressive in the demographics that count.

The state is, arguably, if anything, stagnating rather than regressing the more its parties fail to reflect the growing changes within. The dying wasp here is the DUP, specifically.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457212#Comment_120457212

The hen didn't stamp the box downcow. We get all sorts of stuff here with a British Quality stamp, it neither diminishes nor verifies my identity. Not sure what your point is.

It's a good explainer of the need to mark territory and the abnormal (to the rest of the UK) need to have the flag raised though. All you have done in that post is underline your insecurities.

*You see this insecurity now in the rest of the UK from those who feel under attack from the EU. The 'flag' has to be everywhere.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/21/british-politicians-union-jack-flag

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457203#Comment_120457203

Sorry to be tart but the victim thing has been the closest thing to a culture unionists have had since Isaac Butt and Home Rule. There is no unionist Seamus Heaney, no unionist literature, no unionist music, etc... All they can do is cry victim as they get screwed by Westminster and themselves.

The DUP is a vile, disgusting party pushing an equally toxic ideology that is considered odious by well over 90% of Britons IMO. When unionists chose the DUP as their champions, this is the choice they made, the face they wanted for their movement. Nationalists chose Sinn Féin, a party with a chequered past but which now appears youthful, dynamic and on the right side of history. Michelle O'Neill is a heck of a lot more impressive than whatever homophobic, anti-vaxx, climate change denying relic of the eighteenth century the DUP wheels out.

The truly insane thing is that the DUP had literally everything: money, power and insulation against any and all threats. All they had to do to keep this is to vote with Theresa May once as agreed and paid for but they couldn't even do that. The DUP have done what centuries of Irish revolutionary violence, diplomacy and debate failed to - to slit unionism's throat.

Sam Russell

@pixelburp

Well, we can hope demographics will save the future of NI from the dying wasp's sting.

What I find difficult is the deep hatred riven by sectarian divisions.

Why was it so important for one side to march up the Garvaghy Road in an area where they were not wanted? There are examples from both sides, but the triumphalism signalled by Paisley and Trimble walking hand in hand up the Garvaghy Rd protected by RUC from locals is the image that says it most to me.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457263#Comment_120457263

The DUP is a vile, disgusting party pushing an equally toxic ideology that is considered odious by well over 90% of Britons IMO.

and those 90% will identify the DUP as Irish.

Like them or not I also accept they are a part of my heritage and culture just like FG FF or SF are.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457282#Comment_120457282

I think the GFA opened the door to a possible future now relatively impossible to shut. Sectarianism hasn't gone away, and still informs the politics and social views there, there's no denying that; but sooner or later, something will give.

For that reason, Mays local elections are going to be instructive and fascinating. Will tell a lot about what way towns, villages and localities are (or are not) changing.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457282#Comment_120457282

Sam you pick out garvaghy road. Every day is another number of anniversaries of what republicans done to my community and you choose the offence cause by the route of a walk from church on a Sunday. How would you feel if senior unionist politicians gathered annually to venerate Paisley and Trimble, etc for the victory of getting down the road or the victimhood of not. This is what we have to watch with SF almost daily.

this is todays anniversary for my community’s loss. The murders took place a few miles from my home. SF will be on a platform in my town today, on the anniversary, eulogising the people who done this. Yet there are posters here who are holding sf up as an example Do these posters have any idea how difficult it is for my local community to watch this sf theatre on the very day their military wing murdered these lads SF actions today certainly strengthen the bond in the local unionist community

And if you bother opening the link you will see comments from ‘nationalists’ like ‘Pity there wasn’t more’

https://twitter.com/rabgee101/status/1644970210305163264?s=46&t=W2ziA1PVapX3Hkc0k-oxag

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457307#Comment_120457307

I'd say they'd go with "Northern Irish".

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457133#Comment_120457133

Here’s one reason that your dream is a fantasy If salaries remain higher in roi than ni then there will be a growing trend of working in the best part of the island for working in while living in the best part of the island for living in You may get more and more nordies happy to go down and take your dollars but don’t want to live in your country

https://twitter.com/kilsally/status/1644993281539862528?s=46&t=W2ziA1PVapX3Hkc0k-oxag

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457403#Comment_120457403

They are all living in Ireland downcow.

That's the Sunday edition of the IRISH Independent you are quoting.