Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

breezy1985

breezy1985 wrote: »

The cheaper cost of life and all that does also come with much lower wages and dole and some parts of the UK really do feel poor and run down compared to ROI and having lived both I never felt an richer in one or the other.
The NHS is the big one and people living in the UK can't even fathom the idea that people have to pay for A&E or pay for a few nights in a hospital bed and I forgot myself just how crap it was here when I came back.
On a plus for the ROI there is the wages, the EU and I would say our education system blows there's out of the water

Admittedly I’ve only been to the GP a handful of times in fifteen years here, but I still can’t get used to having to pay. Getting charged €12 for a course of penicillin was a shocker as well.

ancapailldorcha

20silkcut wrote: »

They were better when we were growing up back in the 80’s and 90’s and into the early 2000’s.
But there has been a serious turnaround in the last 15 years or so.

I'd be of that opinion and it'd be on this basis.

rocketspocket

Aegir wrote: »

Admittedly I’ve only been to the GP a handful of times in fifteen years here, but I still can’t get used to having to pay. Getting charged €12 for a course of penicillin was a shocker as well.

Free doctors, free prescription up north & lower tax rate and overall lower cost of living - if the argument becomes purely economical then it could be a hard sell unless a 'new ireland' adopts some of these benefits.

cgcsb

Isabelmaria wrote: »

Just a question, who in the North, in the name of an outdated concept of nationalism, wants to give up the free NHS, much cheaper cost of life, cheap houses, cars , insurance, road tax , great transport infrastructure that is the envy of those in the midlands? i really don't know...

Is this a serious post? Have you ever been to the North?

rocketspocket

cgcsb wrote: »

Is this a serious post? Have you ever been to the North?

Regarding car insurance - was paying tesco 300GBP up north, brought the car down & best quote was 800EUR (same cover & no claims)...

cgcsb

Aegir wrote: »

Admittedly I’ve only been to the GP a handful of times in fifteen years here, but I still can’t get used to having to pay. Getting charged €12 for a course of penicillin was a shocker as well.

Jeepers that's some tight pockets you have pal. Your hands must be purple.

onrail

cgcsb wrote: »

Jeepers that's some tight pockets you have pal. Your hands must be purple.

Tbf - when you're used to paying zero for something, €12 is bloody expensive.

FrancieBrady

cgcsb wrote: »

Jeepers that's some tight pockets you have pal. Your hands must be purple.

Can't understand the whole 'free' NHS stuff myself. Where does the money come from to run it?
We are all paying for our health services one way or another.

cgcsb

rocketspocket wrote: »

Regarding car insurance - was paying tesco 300GBP up north, brought the car down & best quote was 800EUR (same cover & no claims)...

Wages are about 62% higher in the Republic and cost of living is is barely 20% higher. The 'free' NHS is unusable. You'd be dead of old age waiting to see a specialist, never mind the condition you're suffering from. You can see this reflected in NI's low life expectancy and poor healthcare outcomes. Would rather put my hand in my pocket then get a 'free' service that'll kill me.

cgcsb

onrail wrote: »

Tbf - when you're used to paying zero for something, €12 is bloody expensive.

I actually wouldn't remember spending €12 yesterday. How long has he been dwelling on this? It's a life saving medication, you would probably have spent more on parking to get to the appointment.

onrail

cgcsb wrote: »

How long has he been dwelling on this?

I'm not the original poster, so roughly 4 minutes.

Looks like you need some NHS funded spectacles.

cgcsb

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can't understand the whole 'free' NHS stuff myself. Where does the money come from to run it?
We are all paying for our health services one way or another.

Much rather the system in the South. I've been to a rapid injury clinic in Dublin once. Cost €100, was seen to in 10 mins, x-ray, bandaged and dressing done and medication sorted then home in less than an hour round trip, brilliant service. If I was in the north I would have probably died from a preventable infection waiting to see someone but at least it'd be 'free'.

onrail

cgcsb wrote: »

Much rather the system in the South. I've been to a rapid injury clinic in Dublin once. Cost €100, was seen to in 10 mins, x-ray, bandaged and dressing done and medication sorted then home in less than an hour round trip, brilliant service. If I was in the north I would have probably died from a preventable infection waiting to see someone but at least it'd be 'free'.

A couple of years back I did a number on my foot, severing an artery and nerve. Seen that day for emergency surgery. Didn't have time to think about it. My health insurers (paid through work) paid me £250 for using the NHS and not going private.

To be fair though seeing a GP for free isn't the best system. A token charge of €5 or €10 would alleviate a lot of problems.

Fionn1952

rocketspocket wrote: »

Regarding car insurance - was paying tesco 300GBP up north, brought the car down & best quote was 800EUR (same cover & no claims)...

Car insurance rates are probably lower in China too....really doesn't stand up to much scrutiny taking one thing in isolation.

My car costs more to insure and tax since I moved to the other side of the border, I don't have free at the point of service healthcare any more, most of my bills are higher......I'm still FAR better off living where I do now because my salary is almost double what I'd get paid for the same job in Belfast.

Trying to point out things that are cheaper really needs to be contextualised with the MUCH lower average income in the North.

rocketspocket

cgcsb wrote: »

Much rather the system in the South. I've been to a rapid injury clinic in Dublin once. Cost €100, was seen to in 10 mins, x-ray, bandaged and dressing done and medication sorted then home in less than an hour round trip, brilliant service. If I was in the north I would have probably died from a preventable infection waiting to see someone but at least it'd be 'free'.

I don't know your experience with the NHS but i've used it about a dozen times in while growing up & most recently, around 5 years ago, broke my wrist and was living up north- pretty much the very same story except the 100EUR (in/out x-ray & patched within 60minutes). Also, a lot of people don't have 100EUR sitting there for such an emergency

rocketspocket

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Car insurance rates are probably lower in China too....really doesn't stand up to much scrutiny taking one thing in isolation.

My car costs more to insure and tax since I moved to the other side of the border, I don't have free at the point of service healthcare any more, most of my bills are higher......I'm still FAR better off living where I do now because my salary is almost double what I'd get paid for the same job in Belfast.

Trying to point out things that are cheaper really needs to be contextualised with the MUCH lower average income in the North.

Agree 100% except belfast salaries will not raise 100% if reunification goes ahead.

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

I actually wouldn't remember spending €12 yesterday. How long has he been dwelling on this? It's a life saving medication, you would probably have spent more on parking to get to the appointment.

I didn’t get prescriptions for free in England, there is a set charge, but as penicillin is piss cheap the pharmacist usually throws the prescription away and asks for three quid to cover it.

That’s what I found a shock to be honest, how can a pharmacist in England afford to do that, but one here has to charge €12. But them I guess pretty much everything is way more expensive in Ireland, you even have to pay for the ****ing school books for some reason.

Charles Babbage

rocketspocket wrote: »

Free doctors, free prescription up north & lower tax rate and overall lower cost of living - if the argument becomes purely economical then it could be a hard sell unless a 'new ireland' adopts some of these benefits.

For the salaries most people get in NI the taxes are not lower.

Median salary in NI is £28000, i.e. half the people earn less.
Deductions from this salary in NI are £5,318

Call this €31,360 then deductions (tax, PRSI and Social charge) in ROI are € 4,940, so £1000 less!

Now more taxation for everyone may be needed in a UI but it is not true that most people would pay more tax if changed over to the ROI system.
Now of course well paid single people might pay quite a bit more in the south and there are a lot more of them on these salaries in the south.

For this average person the national insurance is the difference, the government could offer to allow people continue paying the higher rate and give them free GPs.

cgcsb

onrail wrote: »

A couple of years back I did a number on my foot, severing an artery and nerve. Seen that day for emergency surgery. Didn't have time to think about it. My health insurers (paid through work) paid me £250 for using the NHS and not going private.

To be fair though seeing a GP for free isn't the best system. A token charge of €5 or €10 would alleviate a lot of problems.

The GPs in the north were always brimming with gobsheens turning up with a cold :rolleyes: a charge prevents all that messing. No doubt free gp visits will be included as part of slaintecare and there'll have to be some backtracking after the fact.

cgcsb

rocketspocket wrote: »

I don't know your experience with the NHS but i've used it about a dozen times in while growing up & most recently, around 5 years ago, broke my wrist and was living up north- pretty much the very same story except the 100EUR (in/out x-ray & patched within 60minutes). Also, a lot of people don't have 100EUR sitting there for such an emergency

My experience of it is very much 'West of the Bann', I'm told there's a significant difference.

breezy1985

cgcsb wrote: »

The GPs in the north were always brimming with gobsheens turning up with a cold :rolleyes: a charge prevents all that messing. No doubt free gp visits will be included as part of slaintecare and there'll have to be some backtracking after the fact.

Not true in my NHS surgery if you showed up with a cold or flu you were told to F off and stop infecting the rest of the waiting room. Waiting times were longer if it wasnt urgent though but at least it was free.A&E was the exact same in both countries except one charged 100 euro and the other was free and far play to the lad above and his 10 min clinic visit because that is very rare in Ireland. Medicine is also very cheap in the UK.


Paying for GPs and hospitals up front like in Ireland is very unusual in Europe and most manage without bigger wait times than Ireland

Fionn1952

rocketspocket wrote: »

Agree 100% except belfast salaries will not raise 100% if reunification goes ahead.

True, and salaries in Longford aren't as high as those in Dublin. The real question is whether the average person would be better off. Let's not even talk a 100% increase for the average person in the North.....would you give up free at the point of service healthcare for a 50% pay increase? I know I would, mostly because I did.

onrail

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Car insurance rates are probably lower in China too....really doesn't stand up to much scrutiny taking one thing in isolation.

My car costs more to insure and tax since I moved to the other side of the border, I don't have free at the point of service healthcare any more, most of my bills are higher......I'm still FAR better off living where I do now because my salary is almost double what I'd get paid for the same job in Belfast.

Trying to point out things that are cheaper really needs to be contextualised with the MUCH lower average income in the North.

All depends on circumstance really. In my case in Belfast, I earn roughly €15k gross, say 9k net less than I would in Dublin.

Rent is at very least 8k-10k less per year. I would save the guts of €300k if buying a similar house.

Bought a car this summer. Roughly 8k less than the same in ROI.
Save at least €500/year on medical and dental treatment with the NHS.

Utilities are probably similar, groceries and childcare probably 10-20% less.

Obvs there might be bigger salary advantages if I worked in a different industry, but not everyone can magically start working in big Tech.

I'll be moving down south in a couple of years because of personal ties, but if I had a choice, I'd stay up North.

rocketspocket

Fionn1952 wrote: »

True, and salaries in Longford aren't as high as those in Dublin. The real question is whether the average person would be better off. Let's not even talk a 100% increase for the average person in the North.....would you give up free at the point of service healthcare for a 50% pay increase? I know I would, mostly because I did.

Aside that argument that my employer will not put up my wages up voluntarily; if i was to have 50k in credit union savings then my worry would be that the inflation of a UI will destroy a portion of this.

Like i said earlier, i have no dog in this fight but those would be the questions that would be concerning me before voting 'yes' on any future poll - also brexit has shown me that believing in the advocation of a 'sunlit uplands' of a UI may backfire massively.

rocketspocket

onrail wrote: »

All depends on circumstance really. In my case in Belfast, I earn roughly €15k gross, say 9k net less than I would in Dublin.

Rent is at very least 8k-10k less per year. I would save the guts of €300k if buying a similar house.

Bought a car this summer. Roughly 8k less than the same in ROI.
Save at least €500/year on medical and dental treatment with the NHS.

Utilities are probably similar, groceries and childcare probably 10-20% less.

Obvs there might be bigger salary advantages if I worked in a different industry, but not everyone can magically start working in big Tech.

I'll be moving down south in a couple of years because of personal ties, but if I had a choice, I'd stay up North.

100% - Me & misses have talked about moving back up north for these reasons.. not feasible for 5 years for dependency on family down here but we feel that our quality of life would be better and our wages would go further..

Phoebas

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Car insurance rates are probably lower in China too....really doesn't stand up to much scrutiny taking one thing in isolation.

My car costs more to insure and tax since I moved to the other side of the border, I don't have free at the point of service healthcare any more, most of my bills are higher......I'm still FAR better off living where I do now because my salary is almost double what I'd get paid for the same job in Belfast.

Trying to point out things that are cheaper really needs to be contextualised with the MUCH lower average income in the North.

The context is a UI, where the things that effect car costs (motor tax rates, excise duty rates, the legal framework that insurers operate in etc) are more likely to gravitate towards what we have in the south, but the same isn't necessary true (or at least would be a much slower process) for wage rates.

murphaph

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

If there is going to be a Referendum on Reunification, then after what happened with Brexit, all of the details will be known beforehand to the voters. Details that would likely include:

• A new Flag
• A new National Anthem
• The cost to Dublin, both financially and in security terms, of taking on the 6 counties

Would enough people in the Republic vote to Reunite? Personally, I would myself but I'm not sure if a majority of the electorate would.

Before Brexit I would have likely voted against unification at this stage. I would have wanted to see broad protestant acceptance of a UI before Brexit has changed the dynamic for me. It has added a sense of urgency.

Sharing the island with a fellow EU member state with similar enough outlook was one thing. We could have slowly allowed demographics and societal changes in NI and indeed the RoI to bring about unification in an ordered and calm way.

Now I don't see a fellow EU member state or even a state I really recognise anymore. The UK (or at least its government) seems alien to me. I couldn't imagine for example, ever moving there to work now. It's a cold, foreign looking place to me now. I last visited in 2017. We spent a week in Wales and to be honest I got sick of people telling me, a foreigner and EU national, how great it would be to be shot of the EU. I have nothing much in common with these people, despite a common language.

If I was asked to vote on unification tomorrow I would vote in favour. Let English nationalists wreak havoc on their own island. The Scots can decide for themselves if they want in or out.

I don't know how many people share my sentiments but in my own family I'm not the only one who has changed position on this.

Fionn1952

Phoebas wrote: »

The context is a UI, where the things that effect car costs (motor tax rates, excise duty rates, the legal framework that insurers operate in etc) are more likely to gravitate towards what we have in the south, but the same isn't necessary true (or at least would be a much slower process) for wage rates.

That's a reasonable concern. As I said, my issue was purely with pointing out things that are cheaper or more expensive on one side or the other with no context.

I'm not for a second suggesting there are no financial concerns surrounding unification (one I hadn't considered was highlighted re: savings), though I expect the discussion in the North will be less focused on that than it would be on this side of the border.

blanch152

Fionn1952 wrote: »

True, and salaries in Longford aren't as high as those in Dublin. The real question is whether the average person would be better off. Let's not even talk a 100% increase for the average person in the North.....would you give up free at the point of service healthcare for a 50% pay increase? I know I would, mostly because I did.

Well, yes they are, for public servants.

How will we maintain a two-tier system for public servants?

Sam Russell

Fionn1952 wrote: »

That's a reasonable concern. As I said, my issue was purely with pointing out things that are cheaper or more expensive on one side or the other with no context.

I'm not for a second suggesting there are no financial concerns surrounding unification (one I hadn't considered was highlighted re: savings), though I expect the discussion in the North will be less focused on that than it would be on this side of the border.

Well, if you think that in 2015, GB£ was at 70p = €1. That would mean someone in Belfast earning £21,000 equated to a Dublin salary of €30,000. Now it equates to a salary of €23,000. The same applies to savings (and debts).

The prediction on future exchange rates appears to suggest the GB£ will go below parity over this year or next.

But the question is not about the past but about the future.

Is it likely that a UK Gov facing a vast shortage of funds because of Covid and Brexit would continue to subsidise NI to the tune of GB£10 billion a year for any length of time. They have already cut back on many EU payments that were promised to continue, but one month in, and they have back down on those promises.

Who would trust a Tory Gov to pump money into a region that has no Tory MPs? Just look where they are pumping money into and where they are cutting back.