Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Boggles

Multipass wrote: »

Won’t be long before they’re berating the lazy unemployed.

walus wrote: »

And I only wonder how they are going to get all those pup recipients to get off their backsides, go to work and work productively

Not long at all.

polesheep

Corby Trouser Press wrote: »

No factories are closed.

Are all the goods produced there essential?

No warehouses are closed packing and delivering clothing, electrical goods and whatever else people are ordering... all absolutely essential?

The production of a home or other structure has very much been singled out under these current restrictions, relative to other industries and relative to other jurisdictions.

The closure of construction sites was a knee-jerk reaction to the hysterical screaming on social media regarding NI builders coming 'down here'.

Corby Trouser Press

polesheep wrote: »

The closure of construction sites was a knee-jerk reaction to the hysterical screaming on social media regarding NI builders coming 'down here'.

Seems like it.

Pressure was minimal really and the Minister could have easily fought his corner and challenged Roisin Shorthall or Richard Boyd Barrett to debate on it if he was so minded.

Focus was all on the schools shutdown that week.

I have even taken the trouble to reword his own statement for him;

"Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Darragh O’Brien TD has confirmed a shutdown in construction activity from 6pm on Friday 8th January as part of the national effort to halt the spread of COVID-19. The situation will be reviewed on January 31st.

Minister O’Brien said the decision was necessary so as to try to bring the virus under control and that only a very limited amount of essential sites and a small number of designated social housing construction projects which are due for completion within a 6-8 week period would continue during this time. Cabinet also agreed that the construction and operation of water, wastewater and gas infrastructure and related services remain essential. The planning system will continue to operate subject to appropriate safety protocols and services operating online where feasible.

that construction will continue under the new level 5 restrictions announced.

Commenting he said, “I have spoken with stakeholders today and will continue to engage with them. The construction sector showed great agility in adapting so swiftly to public health measures and social distancing requirements. Over the past six months I have visited sites which had strict protocols in place for the safety of all their staff.

“It’s clear that these measures have worked with no evidence the construction sector has been a driver of infections. The number of associated outbreaks representing 0.6% of all outbreaks since August."

ArthurDayne

Graham wrote: »

As a country we went from some of the lowest case numbers to the highest in a matter of weeks.

Less movement = less virus spreading.

Construction isn't being singled out here, it's facing the same restrictions as many other industries.

Graham, appreciate that you are simply outlining the I]purported[/I rationale here but I have to repeat — we get it, we all get it. We understand that the rationale being provided for construction halting is to discourage movement. Honestly, we get it. It’s the proportionality people are criticising — they are not confused as to what the purported rationale is.

The very fact that you are saying “construction isn’t being singled out here” goes right to the very heart of why many people feel frustrated by the approach — it is a clumsily applied one-size-fits-all approach which lacks any sense of nuance in terms of proportionality. Given the property crisis we face, and the prospect that it will now be accompanied by the biggest and most fundamental economic shock that many of us will ever live to see, it’s very much OK in my mind to think in more nuanced terms. The long term socioeconomic benefit of ensuring that we are doing all we can to combat what is potentially going to be a multi-generational crisis needs to be weighed up against the short term risk of maybe a slightly enhanced risk of viral spread (and personally, I’m not convinced that allowing construction to recommence would precipitate any healthcare calamity).

Clumsiness in the application of rules, guidance and law was disastrous last year in my opinion — but at the very least the rushed sense of urgency was somewhat more defensible in the early days. We are now almost a year on and we are well capable of even just a slightly higher dose of nuance.

Graham

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Graham, appreciate that you are simply outlining the I]purported[/I rationale here but I have to repeat — we get it, we all get it. We understand that the rationale being provided for construction halting is to discourage movement. Honestly, we get it. It’s the proportionality people are criticising — they are not confused as to what the purported rationale is.

The very fact that you are saying “construction isn’t being singled out here” goes right to the very heart of why many people feel frustrated by the approach — it is a clumsily applied one-size-fits-all approach which lacks any sense of nuance in terms of proportionality.

It's not intended to be nuanced. It's meant to reduce numbers quickly.

The more people moving around, the longer it takes the numbers to come down, the longer the rest of the population have to suffer the restrictions.

Let me put it another way, why should other non-essential businesses face longer restrictions to allow non-essential construction to continue?

Corby Trouser Press

Graham wrote: »

It's not intended to be nuanced. It's meant to reduce numbers quickly.

The more people moving around, the longer it takes the numbers to come down, the longer the rest of the population have to suffer the restrictions.

Let me put it another way, why should other non-essential businesses face longer restrictions to allow non-essential construction to continue?

What's non-essential about housing?

Shelter is literally there on Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a Physiological base need.

What makes the packaging and delivery of, for example, electrical goods, books and household furnishings an essential service that needs to continue?

The construction restrictions are fundamentally flawed and in practical terms deeply harmful.

Graham

Corby Trouser Press wrote: »

What's non-essential about housing?

How many people are going to die if the next 8 units on that new estate/office/warehouse/retail park are delayed 10 weeks? Essential construction is permitted to continue.

Let's not pretend we have hundreds that are going to be saved from homelessness if construction reopens immediately.

normanoffside

Nearly half our deaths since December are from people who contracted the virus inside a hospital or Nursing home.

Nothing can be done about that though, absolutely nothing.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1357303109970776064

ypres5

Corby Trouser Press wrote: »

What's non-essential about housing?

Shelter is literally there on Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a Physiological base need.

What makes the packaging and delivery of, for example, electrical goods, books and household furnishings an essential service that needs to continue?

The construction restrictions are fundamentally flawed and in practical terms deeply harmful.

if we really want to start getting pedantic about what's essential then shops should have all aisles blocked off other than meat, fruit veg and cleaning supplies etc. tea coffee biscuits chocolate aren't'essential' so why are they being sold

ArthurDayne

Graham wrote: »

It's not intended to be nuanced. It's meant to reduce numbers quickly.

Indeed, which is precisely the problem.

Graham wrote: »

The more people moving around, the longer it takes the numbers to come down, the longer the rest of the population have to suffer the restrictions.

But unfortunately Graham, and without any intention of having a go at you personally, this narrative has proven itself to be garbage. The people are now all too aware that, in terms of restrictions, it matters very little anymore what they do because (a) the authorities seem oblivious to the reality that loosening restrictions will invariably allow case numbers to rise again and (b) the government will then subsequently subtly blame people for this inevitable phenomenon and tighten restrictions again.

Graham wrote: »

Let me put it another way, why should other non-essential businesses face longer restrictions to allow non-essential construction to continue?

Because we have a long-standing property crisis in this country and a Brexit crisis, both of which are now currently being compounded by a new crisis which has the potential of (dare I say it) mutating into an almighty FUBAR crisis. The word “essential” has been warped by this current crisis into little more than a strict dictionary definition that seemingly can only be applied to a future period extending no more than a few weeks in advance at a time. We need to be thinking of the future, we need to be cognisant that the “way out” of the Covid crisis goes far far beyond merely the suppression of Covid itself.

josip

ypres5 wrote: »

if we really want to start getting pedantic about what's essential then shops should have all aisles blocked off other than meat, fruit veg and cleaning supplies etc. tea coffee biscuits chocolate aren't'essential' so why are they being sold

No, all shops should be closed, full stop, no exceptions.
You could send a list of things you need to your local representative, who would then arrange the delivery to your address.

Corby Trouser Press

Graham wrote: »

How many people are going to die if the next 8 units on that new estate/office/warehouse/retail park are delayed 10 weeks? Essential construction is permitted to continue.

Let's not pretend we have hundreds that are going to be saved from homelessness if construction reopens immediately.

Ordered anything online lately?

Just imagine you could be responsible for a chain of infection going through the warehouse workers to the delivery drivers and spreading throughout the community.

All because you just had to have that essential item to get you through lockdown.

Silentcorner

Lads it's like talking to a brick wall.

This is the consequences of the media which hasn't put any emphasis on the massive economic and social costs of these policies, which is what they are supposed to do.

I thought by putting up the ERSI prediction yesterday that we are looking at an unemployment rate of 28% this year would snap a few people out of the psychosis but it seems not to have any impact.

The real economic and social issues these extremely restrictive government policies are here and are being felt and will be felt very soon for most...the political fall out will be huge as well in the not too distant future.

There are a load of people who were scoffing at the Brits over Brexit, their handling of the Virus, but they won't be sending their best and brightest over here for a future, as always we will be sending ours over there, like we always have done.

They have a much stronger indigenous SME sector than we have, which will see them bounce back faster than we can. We have decimated our locally owned SME sector.

Our leaders have to lead at some point, we know, from last year, the chances that our health service will be under pressure (let alone overwhelmed) is remote between now and Oct/Nov, this should give us room to push our opening just that bit quicker, we are not going to see a surge like we did in Dec/Jan, the depths of winter, and we will not see a surge that we saw last March, as we have a much higher degree of immunity.

Being a pessimist is not in my nature, quiet the opposite in fact, but in the absence of media balance on this, the fact the Houlihan or our political leaders are not being asked hard questions, we are left with our own ability to see what is coming down the track very quickly....I sincerely hope I wrong.

ArthurDayne

josip wrote: »

No, all shops should be closed, full stop, no exceptions.
You could send a list of things you need to your local representative, who would then arrange the delivery to your address.

I remember last year being whinged at by the cohabitants for going to the park, all of whom would happily stroll around Tesco which was literally the one single place in the in the entire area where you were guaranteed to come into close contact with other people in an indoor environment. It was remarkable how many computer-literate people back then would howl in fury at some vacuous clickbait photo of people in the open air at Stephen’s Green, before happily queuing up in any supermarket or coffee shop rather than order online.

The hypocrisy and lack of logical consistency to peoples’ fears back then was truly astounding — and it was surreal to be singled out so often as the callous one.

Boggles

normanoffside wrote: »

Nearly half our deaths since December are from people who contracted the virus inside a hospital or Nursing home.

38%?

Would be closer to a third by my maths. A large number in it's own right.

But in reality nearly 2/3's of deaths came from outbreaks in the community and not nursing homes or acute hospitals.

Completely bursts the fallacy that the majority dieing are "coffin dodgers" cooped up in care homes waiting to be pushed off the edge.

ninebeanrows

Is there any plan on bringing those sick with COVID or their close contacts to a facility or quarantine hotel for 14 days?

Surely this is more important than quarantining passengers who have a very slight risk of carrying the virus?

Penfailed

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

A frightening number of people believe the borrowing is “free money” and austerity is counter productive.

...

You made claims for months that Ireland was just like Europe, it doesn’t seem it was

What is borrowed must be paid back. There's no such thing as free money.

My claim was regarding restrictions, not the economy. I didn't say Ireland was just like Europe regarding restrictions either by the way. Our restrictions and the restrictions in Europe have varied throughout. They had curfews, we didn't. That's one obvious difference.

Yet again, you've tried to twist what I've said. It's tiresome at this stage.

Penfailed

Silentcorner wrote: »

Why do these posters keep making up words?

There is nobody anti restrictions on here!

There is a price we are going to pay for all the doomsday senario Government policies we have pursued since last March, the dooms day mongers are all on media all the time, projecting massive death and suffering, mass graves and freezer trucks full of bodies, rammed hospitals etc....posters on here are quiet rightly articulating concerns about the consequences of all this doom and gloom and the policies we are currently pursing....because very few in media that I am aware of are doing what they should be doing, providing balance.

The only place I've read about mass graves and freezer trucks full of bodies is this thread. That's not to say it hasn't been mentioned in the media...but...all the time? Nah. I don't buy it.

Penfailed

Corby Trouser Press wrote: »

Construction is substantially closed.

Very few sites are open.

All should be open and working at full capacity in order to resolve the housing crises... remember that issue from General Election 2020 that was front and centre along with the Health Service?

Social housing construction hasn't stopped though...

Corby Trouser Press

Penfailed wrote: »

Social housing construction hasn't stopped though...

On a limited basis, dependent on the judgement of the local authority in charge I believe.

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

Dobbo interviewing head of the HSE, Paul Reid on Radio 1. Repeatedly grilled him, "why aren't we receiving daily figures of vaccines delivered". Reid's reply? "So we're making great progress..." while deliberately avoiding any specifics. Neck on that spoofer.

Paul Reid does look like a guy that showed up at the wrong interview and got the job by accident.

But the vaccination numbers are on the hub.

https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/

219,200 (67,000 second dose).

average_runner

Deleted User wrote: »

Dobbo interviewing head of the HSE, Paul Reid on Radio 1. Repeatedly grilled him, "why aren't we receiving daily figures of vaccines delivered". Reid's reply? "So we're making great progress..." while deliberately avoiding any specifics. Neck on that spoofer.

Ever hear of google.


Its a search engine that will find you alot of information.


I hate the spoon fed society we have

Vital Transformation

Boggles wrote: »

Paul Reid does look like a guy that showed up at the wrong interview and got the job by accident.

But the vaccination numbers are on the hub.

https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/

219,200 (67,000 second dose).

The daily figures aren't, that was the point being made.

average_runner

Vital Transformation wrote: »

The daily figures aren't, that was the point being made.

Take a screen shot each day and then use a calculator if you want it that much

rob316

My 93 year old nan died this morning. We spent the whole year isolating our selves to keep her safe. Barely saw her and when I did it was from another room, saw my son once and never got to see our newborn. My mam says its better than dying of covid alone in a hospital gasping for breath. I'm conflicted though, did she enjoy her last year? The older years are all about enjoying your family and the generations you have created.

Vital Transformation

average_runner wrote: »

Take a screen shot each day and then use a calculator if you want it that much

They aren't published each day, that's the whole point. Anyway, I never said I was personally invested in receiving the daily figures. I was just clarifying Dobson's question.

Multipass

rob316 wrote: »

My 93 year old nan died this morning. We spent the whole year isolating our selves to keep her safe. Barely saw her and when I did it was from another room, saw my son once and never got to see our newborn. My mam says its better than dying of covid alone in a hospital gasping for breath. I'm conflicted though, did she enjoy her last year? The older years are all about your family and the generations you have created.

That’s really sad, I’m so sorry.

FintanMcluskey

average_runner wrote: »

Take a screen shot each day and then use a calculator if you want it that much

Exactly.

I wonder why we don’t do the same with case/death numbers?

Especially so when daily death numbers often contain months of a lag.

I really hate people having to be spoon fed

normanoffside

More great stuff from McNamara

https://twitter.com/MlMcNamaraTD/status/1357327141348769798

suicide_circus

average_runner wrote: »

Take a screen shot each day and then use a calculator if you want it that much

Daily death figures, good.

Daily vaccine figures, bad.