16 family members given vaccine

hynesie08

The Rotunda said that to avoid wasting the doses, following discussion with the National Immunisation Advisory Committee (NIAC) it put out a call to local General Practitioners and others seeking people who wished to receive the vaccine.

The hospital said 37 people, including GPs and “members of other vulnerable groups” received the excess vaccine doses. The Irish Times understands there were two relatives of staff members among the cohort of people in vulnerable categories who received the vaccine

Seems perfectly reasonable as well

McFly85

Throwing out vaccines to keep people happy who will then in turn be outraged at the amount being thrown out and the ultimate delay it causes them getting their own dose. Madness.

is_that_so

jill_valentine wrote: »

So we're officially and explicitly at the point of throwing out vaccines purely to keep unaffected people happy.

2 lost doses = no story bar questions about the Coombe ran their vaccinations and there are plenty about that anyway. It gives the impression that hospitals were just left to their own devices.

hynesie08

is_that_so wrote: »

2 lost doses = no story bar questions about the Coombe ran their vaccinations.

Bollocks to that, if viable vaccines aren't finding there way into somebodies arm, then heads should roll.....

One thing that's puzzling me greatly is the measurement of the vaccine liquid. How is it not completely standard as to exactly how many doses are in a vial, if it's being drawn up correctly into the syringe. I used to do this to inject my mother, always knew precisely the amount in the syringe. Maybe some staff have less good eyesight or a be little less precise.

titan18

jill_valentine wrote: »

So we're officially and explicitly at the point of throwing out vaccines purely to keep unaffected people happy.

Or the HSE had months to come up with a system of what to do with extra doses (was always likely to be some no shows) and failed to do so due to their own usual incompetence. That or they thought of it and their response was it's ok we'll get family members.

plodder

GreeBo wrote: »

Why would they not be on day 5? They have to be taken out at some stage, they its unrealistic to assume they get taken out just in time to be used.

They had 1 hour to find people, after alreading finding over 100 people who weren't on the list.

The vaccines are stored at -70 here in Dublin somewhere. Presumably, the batch for the Coombe was taken out of the ultra cold storage and was brought straight to the Coombe where it was put in a fridge. It wasn't brought on a sightseeing tour of Ireland for three days first. So, the clock started ticking when it left the central cold store and it was used on day 1 ie within 24 hours. Unused vials could have been kept for a few more days and used when more people were found from the right categories. I'm not playing a blame game here. I'm just saying this situation where people have to be found with a couple of hours notice doesn't have to arise.

jill_valentine

is_that_so wrote: »

2 lost doses = no story bar questions about the Coombe ran their vaccinations.

There would - and now, almost inevitably, will - be uproar if it becomes apparent hospitals are dumping completely viable vaccine because Procedure Says No, especially when we end up with people still waiting to get jabbed in October.

Christy42

plodder wrote: »

The vaccines are stored at -70 here in Dublin somewhere. Presumably, the batch for the Coombe was taken out of the ultra cold storage and was brought straight to the Coombe where it was put in a fridge. It wasn't brought on a sightseeing tour of Ireland for three days first. So, the clock started ticking when it left the central cold store and it was used on day 1 ie within 24 hours. Unused vials could have been kept for a few more days and used when more people were found from the right categories. I'm not playing a blame game here. I'm just saying this situation where people have to be found with a couple of hours notice doesn't have to arise.

Given they got through 1000 + vaccinations first was this on the first day? I mean they went for 100 extra people as well so presumably they felt some urgency.

iamwhoiam

[Deleted User] wrote: »

One thing that's puzzling me greatly is the measurement of the vaccine liquid. How is it not completely standard as to exactly how many doses are in a vial, if it's being drawn up correctly into the syringe. I used to do this to inject my mother, always knew precisely the amount in the syringe. Maybe some staff have less good eyesight or a be little less precise.

They are drawing it up correctly . Some vials have a little over 5 doses so staff are getting 6 doses from a vial

hynesie08

hynesie08 wrote: »

So since the 2 kids work in healthcare, they'd be on this list right? What if 10 people reply?

The first replies are chosen, simple as that.
The 2 offspring who work in healthcare, if they are indeed frontline workers, fine.

brendanwalsh

is_that_so wrote: »

That many? Got the impression it was only a handful. This says two.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/family-members-of-staff-at-rotunda-hospital-received-leftover-covid-19-vaccine-1.4461367

37 non staff members. 2 of them family members of staff.

The problem with this is they seem to have jumped ahead of actual rotunda staff.

“ It must be noted that even if Rotunda staff could attend at short notice to receive the vaccine remnants, the hospital was not approved to administer it to them,” he said.

“The 37 non-Rotunda personnel who received the vaccines did so in the full knowledge they were receiving a non-approved vaccine remnant,” he said.”

is_that_so

jill_valentine wrote: »

There would - and now, almost inevitably, will - be uproar if it becomes apparent hospitals are dumping completely viable vaccine because Procedure Says No.

I don't think that will be the case. If as is claimed the systems are now up and running they must have contingencies for this type of scenario. The possible wider picture from this though is if hospitals can't do it right, how can the mass vaccination be run successfully? Not my thinking I'll add, I think it'll be fine overall but you can do without, now, 2 hospitals, seemingly doing things on the hoof.

screamer

Of course it shouldn’t go to waste, but vaccinating people who are not in the top priority space is wasting it.
I’m sure if they called any off duty front line nurses/ doctors/ paramedics, even the hospital cleaning and catering staff, they’d have had those vaccines administered without going to string pulling admin staff family members. And yes, I think the HCW should be vaccinated first and foremost along with the most vulnerable elderly, not the most privileged.

is_that_so

brendanwalsh wrote: »

37 non staff members. 2 of them family members of staff.

The problem with this is they seem to have jumped ahead of actual rotunda staff.

“ It must be noted that even if Rotunda staff could attend at short notice to receive the vaccine remnants, the hospital was not approved to administer it to them,” he said.

“The 37 non-Rotunda personnel who received the vaccines did so in the full knowledge they were receiving a non-approved vaccine remnant,” he said.”

Lack of planning and process is my increasing take from these stories.

screamer

is_that_so wrote: »

Lack of planning and process is my increasing take from these stories.

A load of cobblers is my understanding of it....

McFly85

titan18 wrote: »

Or the HSE had months to come up with a system of what to do with extra doses (was always likely to be some no shows) and failed to do so due to their own usual incompetence. That or they thought of it and their response was it's ok we'll get family members.

While I'm no great fan of the HSE, "they should have just had x ready" is a little unfair. The last 11 months have probably had unprecedented strain on the system, and out of everything they had to do they would have rightly prioritised the care of current patients and what would be required in the present. There would have been little point in starting to come up with detailed vaccination procedures before knowing how many vaccines they will get and what is required for storage/administration etc.

Also, it's unrealistic for anyone to expect a national rollout of any new procedure, especially one that didn't have a huge amount of preparation time, to go entirely smoothly or to have detailed redundancy plans in place. It's a constantly evolving situation that will get better as it goes. And in the grand scheme of things it's a minute amount of cases we're actually discussing.

is_that_so

screamer wrote: »

A load of cobblers is my understanding of it....

Not a term in any management manual I've ever read...

jill_valentine

screamer wrote: »

Of course it shouldn’t go to waste, but vaccinating people who are not in the top priority space is wasting it.
I’m sure if they called any off duty front line nurses/ doctors/ paramedics, even the hospital cleaning and catering staff, they’d have had those vaccines administered without going to string pulling admin staff family members. And yes, I think the HCW should be vaccinated first and foremost along with the most vulnerable elderly, not the most privileged.

They did! To muster together the 104 other scrap dose candidates, means they probably tried to contact double that, in addition to the HSE.

jill_valentine

McFly85 wrote: »

While I'm no great fan of the HSE, "they should have just had x ready" is a little unfair. The last 11 months have probably had unprecedented strain on the system, and out of everything they had to do they would have rightly prioritised the care of current patients and what would be required in the present. There would have been little point in starting to come up with detailed vaccination procedures before knowing how many vaccines they will get and what is required for storage/administration etc.

Also, it's unrealistic for anyone to expect a national rollout of any new procedure, especially one that didn't have a huge amount of preparation time, to go entirely smoothly or to have detailed redundancy plans in place. It's a constantly evolving situation that will get better as it goes. And in the grand scheme of things it's a minute amount of cases we're actually discussing.

If I'm not mistaken, the advice regarding the additional "phantom" dose has only officially been issued by Pfizer in the last fortnight, and it's still not technically approved practice.

screamer

jill_valentine wrote: »

They did! To muster together the 104 other scrap dose candidates, means they probably tried to contact double that, in addition to the HSE.

Did they? I highly doubt it, but as usual we’ll be told they did everything right, regardless of what they did. No wonder the culture in the HSE is as it is when we see such behaviour go unchecked.

plodder

Christy42 wrote: »

Given they got through 1000 + vaccinations first was this on the first day? I mean they went for 100 extra people as well so presumably they felt some urgency.

The urgency was because the vials were diluted and had to be used within six hours. If it was the plan to spend, say three days vaccinating 1000 people then would it not make more sense to get a delivery every evening for the following day only?

screamer

is_that_so wrote: »

Not a term in any management manual I've ever read...

You must have the idealistic world management manuals back in the real world we call this bullsh:t

titan18

McFly85 wrote: »

While I'm no great fan of the HSE, "they should have just had x ready" is a little unfair. The last 11 months have probably had unprecedented strain on the system, and out of everything they had to do they would have rightly prioritised the care of current patients and what would be required in the present. There would have been little point in starting to come up with detailed vaccination procedures before knowing how many vaccines they will get and what is required for storage/administration etc.

Also, it's unrealistic for anyone to expect a national rollout of any new procedure, especially one that didn't have a huge amount of preparation time, to go entirely smoothly or to have detailed redundancy plans in place. It's a constantly evolving situation that will get better as it goes. And in the grand scheme of things it's a minute amount of cases we're actually discussing.

You don't need to come up with detailed vaccination procedures, know how many vaccines youre getting or what is required for storage to ask and address the question of what do we if we have extra in a location. No shows are always a guarantee in a program this size so if no one in any meetings they had on vaccinations didn't go what do we do with extra doses if people don't turn up then it's an example of their incompetence.

It isn't rocket science that we're on about here. It's a very simple problem and if they don't have the infrastructure to deal with being able to do mass communications to this already (thinking stuff like call tree tests for BCP here), it sums up what I think of them.

hynesie08

screamer wrote: »

Did they? I highly doubt it, but as usual we’ll be told they did everything right, regardless of what they did. No wonder the culture in the HSE is as it is when we see such behaviour go unchecked.

So where did they get the 104 people who got the first extra vaccines?

ceegee

[Deleted User] wrote: »

One thing that's puzzling me greatly is the measurement of the vaccine liquid. How is it not completely standard as to exactly how many doses are in a vial, if it's being drawn up correctly into the syringe. I used to do this to inject my mother, always knew precisely the amount in the syringe. Maybe some staff have less good eyesight or a be little less precise.

It depends on the type of needle and syringe used. There's always a small amount of liquid left in the neck of the syringe when fully depressed (between the end of the plunger and the tip). If you use low dead space syringes there is less liquid left in the syringe so you can make up the extra dose.

Christy42

plodder wrote: »

The urgency was because the vials were diluted and had to be used within six hours. If it was the plan to spend, say three days vaccinating 1000 people then would it not make more sense to get a delivery every evening for the following day only?

Depends on what the delivery drivers and unloader would be doing otherwise. If everywhere was doing this are you slowing down how quickly it is getting out of the cold freezer center since you are tripling (or more) the deliveries to deliver the same stuff.

How much effort is in taking this stuff out, getting it on a truck and delivered safely? Everything has a cost. The benefits may outweigh it but I would prefer to know what it is first before getting overly fretted on 5-7 vaccines.

McFly85

McFly85 wrote: »

While I'm no great fan of the HSE, "they should have just had x ready" is a little unfair. The last 11 months have probably had unprecedented strain on the system, and out of everything they had to do they would have rightly prioritised the care of current patients and what would be required in the present. There would have been little point in starting to come up with detailed vaccination procedures before knowing how many vaccines they will get and what is required for storage/administration etc.

Also, it's unrealistic for anyone to expect a national rollout of any new procedure, especially one that didn't have a huge amount of preparation time, to go entirely smoothly or to have detailed redundancy plans in place. It's a constantly evolving situation that will get better as it goes. And in the grand scheme of things it's a minute amount of cases we're actually discussing.

Some macro managers are better than others at planning strategies. HSE gets low marks at all times in this respect. There was a whole summer to get a few heads together to make Plan A, Plan B, Plan C, Plan D. Formulate the algorithms. The right people are not in situ. I worked in public service, at times it could make your heart break.

screamer

hynesie08 wrote: »

So where did they get the 104 people who got the first extra vaccines?

Who knows.... they can tell us anything. If they got 104 how much harder to get 16 additional, did they allocate those 16 first, and then ring around looking for 104?
We simply don’t know and as usual we’ll be told everything was done correctly, etc and expected to just believe them.

jrosen

hynesie08 wrote: »

So where did they get the 104 people who got the first extra vaccines?

Maybe they called staff that were not rostered that day to work? They would have already been in line to receive the vaccine anyway.

It will be interesting to see though.