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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 639 ✭✭✭ timetogo1


    Brexit Republic is back on the podcasts. Informative as usual.

    He made a good point. When the EU compromises the UK banks the compromise and then moves onto another issue and moans as if the EU will do nothing. So much for taking back control.

    I got that impression too. No matter what the EU seems to do the UK moans and blames the EU. It must be a nightmare negotiating with that. When ever you make any progress they just move the end goal further away.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,713 ✭✭✭✭ Leroy42


    Tbf, what other option do they have? Like the Tories, they cannot stand on their record so need an enemy to focus attention on.

    Without this what do they offer to a new NI? Not much, so they need to have a 'war'.

    The strange thing is many people simply accept that its the EU they are fighting against, for the sake of the Union. When in reality it is the UK government and voters they are fighting against as they are in favour of Brexit and agreed to this deal.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 27,138 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp


    Johnson meeting NI leaders about reforming the Protocol, rather than scrapping it. Who knows what that means, or how long that position will last.




  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 27,138 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp


    The comment that the leaders will receive "tough" talking must enrage Long or O'Neill, especially given the former really gave the DUP both barrels this week, for taking a wage while scuttling the Executive. As you say, this is empty rhetoric from Johnson; what possible amendments could be done?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,182 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    The country can break a Treaty alright ............ but they can't expect just to break bits of the Treaty that they don't like while still having the other bits remain

    If the UK had an agreement with India so that it could send them X amount of trade tariff free per year in return for 10,000 visas, you couldn't expect the Indians to continue letting them send that trade in tariff free if, the day after signing, the UK decided "actually we don't want to give out the visas so let's scrap that part but keep the bit we like. All good India - yeah?"


    Ireland broke an agreement to pay land annuities to the UK government which resulted in a a good chunk of a decade or so of economic war.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,686 ✭✭✭✭ VinLieger


    So Charles speech contained nothing about the protocol and Boris is backing down from the recent threats as literally everyone else but you knew he would.




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    'Ireland broke an agreement to pay land annuities to the UK government which resulted in a a good chunk of a decade or so of economic war.'

    That cost Ireland dear due to the 'economic war' that caused GB to stop buying Irish beef among other things. As a consequence, our economy suffered desperately and beef production for export was basically stopped.

    However, when war started in 1939, GB looked for the beef again, but there wasn't any. So an economic war bit them hard when suddenly they needed the very thing they chose to embargo.

    I suspect that if there was a United Ireland, many aspects of the divorce deal would contain similar poison pills that will bite one side or the other, depending on the thoroughness of the negotiations, and the financial arrangements that are agreed, and the relative strengths of each side. By which I mean the eagerness of the GB side to rid themselves of their financial burden that is NI, and the delight the Irish side would have of taking on the Unionists as fellow countrymen and all that would entail.

    I think the Windrush generation would have a lot to say about answering the call from Britain to help provide much needed manpower after the war to help rebuild the shattered economy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,080 ✭✭✭✭ Danzy


    I think while London will push through and the EU will fold. It will Likely mean Britain with unfettered access to the EU single market than us being divided out.


    Most of Europe isn't plussed either way and Johnson will have taken encouragement from recent statements.


    America may decide things though.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,887 ✭✭✭ Igotadose


    But, you've lied on other threads. Why should we believe you now? Remember your quote about Ta-Nehisi Coates that you made up? There's prior art with you.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,369 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    Hang on. Are the defenders of Brexit really so desperate that they're invoking a treaty from a century ago?

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 27,138 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp


    Would you be even surprised if they had? At this rate I await somebody, straight faced, arguing for a return to the Gold Standard.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,369 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    In hindsight, no. I suppose it's something different from the standard EU betrayal dead horse they've been flogging for over half a decade.

    Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death.

    Steven Erikson



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,139 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985


    And an agreement where the victim were paying reparations to the colonial oppressor at that. Not really the same as the willingly signed Brexit agreement.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,705 ✭✭✭✭ Kermit.de.frog


    Here's Simon Coveney mentioning "uncertainty on the island of Ireland in terms of single market membership". The very thing I have been saying and some completely dismissing.

    That threat is real and the fact it's actually being mentioned should be waking people up.

    In the absence of a tough EU response the reality is that Britain will decide whether we are in the single market or not depending on what it chooses to do.

    Again we have words from the EU but nothing on consequences which should be spelled out to the British public which can only help create it's own pressure on the Tories.

    The British media is now asking about the consequences and so far it's just blank stares.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,705 ✭✭✭✭ Kermit.de.frog


    You keep going around in circles moving goal posts.

    Ireland will not be in the single market if there is going to be a hole on our borders.

    If you want to believe in a fairytale where such a world exists then more power to you.

    And just for clarity, I don't want to see the EU "burn", I want it reformed.

    AND I equally don't want our future decided by decisions in London either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭ moon2


    Ireland will not be in the single market if there is going to be a hole on our borders.

    Great! You've already identified a solution to your problem which doesn't require the Republic of Ireland exiting the euro zone! All we need to do is shore up that hole in the border!

    As this event would only occur as a result of the UK closing its borders to the Republic, it would probably be a relatively easy job in comparison to Ireland unilaterally deciding to close the border with NI.



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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 27,138 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp


    What goal posts? My position hasn't moved. You, not me, assert that the EU will remove Ireland from the EU Single Market without our consent. Coveney was not referring to that single market, but the potentiality of a hard border between north and South. Simple as. Ergo, the current "single market" between the two countries as defined thanks to the Protocol. The Republic will continue with existence within the EU SM, with the obvious calamity of renewed borders in Ulster. You are the one taking the passing comment and running.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,705 ✭✭✭✭ Kermit.de.frog


    No, you're wrong, I have never said the EU will throw Ireland out of the SM.

    That is not how it would happen.

    It will happen by default. It won't be some grand announcement in Brussels.

    It will be increased checks between the continent and Ireland over time until suddenly people will realise that we are less and less part of the SM.

    I repeat what I have always said, the Tories will only be forced to stop this behaviour when the consequences are laid out for them.

    Next you'll reply the EU is playing 4d chess instead of what I strongly suspect is the reality (particularly in the context of Ukraine) that they have no intention of sanctioning Britain.

    If the EU came out this week and laid out the steps they are going to take I'd be happy with that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,713 ✭✭✭✭ Leroy42


    Kermit.de.frog, what do you think the EU should be doing to stop the UK from its current path?



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,705 ✭✭✭✭ Kermit.de.frog


    In my view they need to describe what exactly the retaliatory action is going to be so the British public know. This should increase opposition to these tactics in London and help put pressure on the Tory party.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭ roosterman71


    Nah. Sure what tory voters are gonna read EU retaliatory measures. Sure the Tories don't even bother themselves telling the public what benefit they will get out of removing the protocol. They can't as NI is faring better than GB since Brexit. The only thing they could say is they are "levelling down" NI



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 32,822 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle


    You're like a child desperately seeking attention at this stage. SC did not say what you're asserting and just because you want to be right on it does not make you right. SC's position has been clear all through the Brezit car crash. So please stop with the paranoid nonsense!



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 32,822 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle


    The EU has said all along that they will decide on any action after the event. That way, they are the side who are not making threats - threats which will simply be used as fodder for the anti-EU press.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 27,138 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp


    That's some cheek to accuse me of moving the goal-posts, only to do exactly that yourself in relation to the EU SM. I have no special perspective on what kind of chess the EU plays, only that the "evidence" you presented that uh oh, here comes the pain for Ireland amounts to a big-swing interpretation of Coveney's passing aside as somehow indicative of future policy. You are starting at a conclusion and working backwards, from a single video to fit the belief.

    Your confidence about the Queen's Speech containing explosive news about the Protocol proved to be utterly false. Maybe it's time to step back and stop seeing threats everywhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,705 ✭✭✭✭ Kermit.de.frog


    It's not false. They just didn't put it in the speech. You'll find out this week. Be patient.

    According to reports this is what will be contained:

    • A green lane for trusted traders transporting goods to Northern Ireland and a red lane for products destined for the Republic of Ireland
    • Increasing penalties for infringement and smuggling
    • Measures enabling firms to produce goods to UK standards in Northern Ireland
    • Transferring oversight from the European Court of Justice (ECJ) to UK courts
    • Granting Northern Ireland same VAT cuts as the rest of the UK
    • Explicit pledge that the UK will never impose border infrastructure between Northern Ireland and the Republic


    That is a repudiation of the treaty, simple as that. It puts our place in the SM at sudden risk.

    Note the last pledge - that is a direct threat to us dressed as a British virtue.

    We need to see a firm response from the EU.



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