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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)



  • Funny how often I've read these things, and Ireland is again not a chief beneficiary of a Brexit-caused relocation as for one reason or another, we don't have what's needed to move.

  • Those Cummings tweets are interesting alright.

    They appear to finally confirm that supposedly outre/fringe ideas were actually a core strategy of important people close edit: to Boris Johnson.

    I think I've had people reply to me before on this thread that the UK would not act in such a malicious way towards its neighbours incl. Ireland; these suggestions are only coming from swivel eyed loons in the Tories and the yellow tabloid press etc.

    Has strategy changed with Cummings being banished? I doubt it. UKs recent actions suggest not. The powers that be here would want to take note of it all, realise what it means for UK/Ireland relations while this fairly extreme UK govt. last and wake up + pay attention IMO. Era of hands across the water and the Queen visiting is well and truly over, we're back in "Economic War" period levels of distrust.

    Post edited by fly_agaric on

  • Back to the way things have been for much of history really. The John major/Tony Blair/ Gordon brown / David Cameron period is probably an outlier period.

  • It's very depressing. I really hope you are wrong about that. Unfortunately it looks like the current UK government is going to be around for quite a while and destroying things is much easier than fixing them up afterwards.

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  • any link to the EU's counter proposals they sent yesterday. The Guardian mentions them but doesnt link to them and was wondering what the EU offered

  • Haha, that is exactly it. It's quite bizarre. It's almost like a pantomime at this stage...

    There was all this build up to the release of the UK 'Command Paper' (sounded very powerful), with the photos of Johnson at his desk signing something while the slightly dishevelled Lord Frost loitered behind, and then... nothing. The EU just said 'sorry, but no'.

    I think that is the bit where we are supposed to laugh in the pantomime.

    Bit of an anti-climax for Johnson, but then his fans don't understand Northern Ireland. Or the protocol. Or the EU. But then nor did his government. After 5 years of Brexit.

    You do have to wonder why Johnson and Frost are continuing to poke the protocol and the border issue (and by extension the wider EU agreement, and any potential US trade deals), but it may be as simple as they didn't know what the hell they were doing, and still don't. Self made crisis to crisis, while also keeping someone, anyone else to blame. They do look very stupid while they do this though.

    Interesting to note Arlene Foster is joining GB News. In turn, she will presumably do her best to blame Ireland and the EU for all NI's perceived woes, while ignoring the fact NI voted against Brexit, the majority in NI would likely rather get on with implementation, and that the protocol could actually be good for NI... Perhaps too good.

    Like Johnson, Foster demands the 'UK get everything cherry unicorn scenario', while taking absolutely no responsibility for the outcome of Brexit. Her rage should really turn inwards given her awful leadership propped up the Tory government, and her party proceeded to then vote down the only Brexit which could have avoided the sea border. It is unequivocally all her fault. I wonder will she broadcast from home, or if she is already beginning the process of her threat to quit NI. She will be joining mean spirited Andrew Neil, Brexit hero Nigel Farage and intellectual Michelle Dewberry to enthrall tens of viewers.

    On Dominic Cummings foray into Twitter... Don't get me started. The man's ego knows no bounds, nor does his shame. For a man who styles himself as some revolutionary intellectual, he doesn't half talk a load of shıte.

    Dominic Cummings... Director of Vote Leave. Man who says on his Twitter bio 'why did I do the referendum'. The chief advisor to Boris Johnson, the mastermind, says 'I dont know if Brexit is a good or bad, I just fix problems'.🤦🏼‍♂️

    Let's also not forget Johnson's consultation process for NI protocol rollout.

    This is all the EU's fault. How dare they, and they better now fix it.

  • "You do have to wonder why Johnson and Frost are continuing to poke the protocol and the border issue". Why? To provoke the loyalists into violence so as to get concessions from the EU. After all, from their point of view, if the paddies were allowed to use the threat of republican violence to get what they want, why shouldn't we be allowed to use the threat of loyalist violence to get what we want?

    "it may be as simple as they didn't know what the hell they were doing". They absolutely do know what they are doing. They are provoking the loyalists, so that they can now, having "Got Brexit done", force the EU to renegotiate the "terrible" deal that they themselves signed.

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  • Correct- they are sociopaths not stupid. You don't get to their position by being stupid - you do by being a sociopath.

  • TBF, it has got them into power, and kept them in power. From their POV why change?

  • I think Johnson needs chaos, he would be shown up too easy in normal politics. While he's in power he'll always be poking at someone, proposing crazy ideas. Johnson has always loved conflict, poking insults in some direction or other. Obviously the voters like that.

  • Another example of the UK diverging from EU standards, in this case, a measure put in place for the distinct benefit of other less well off countries who were being exploited with our waste in the past...

    Separately, RTE are now reporting that the EU has suspended its legal action so to allow time to consider solutions to overcome the current impasse (although they still maintain that the NIP will not be renegotiated)...

  • Ya that annoyed me pausing legal action, just wasting dithering move

    Goodwill move my hole

    This Commission are they not aware of who’s PM of the UK? The guy that finds it hard to go through a day without lying and you expect to deal with his party who are really nasty pieces of work?

    Just continue with legal action and show the world work what this UK Government is like

  • The world knows what the UK are like. This looks like the "concession" that the UK will get and we'll announce a new agreement in a couple of weeks and be told just how the plucky Brits got one over the All powerful EU. Same as it ever was.

    Post edited by BonnieSituation on

  • The EU know full well Johnson and Frost are scoundrels. They are clearly playing a long game, rather than getting into an immediate confrontation. There's no need to rush things and to have early showdowns.

  • Do the EU requirements continue as before with EUCJ oversight while this can kicking is going on? Is the UK still bound by EU SPS rules?

    If so, what is the issue?

  • Further confirmation of my points, ignored by pro EU here, that the Commission is weak and failing a member state.

    This is appeasement of gangster politics in London and it reinforces my view on Ireland's precarious position in the single market.

    Those who have no defence for the commission continuously talk about the "long game" when they have little argument.

    That's the opposite of what's needed here. It could not be more opposite

    This is weak and again I firmly believe despite the denials we are counting in months now regarding Ireland and the single market because the EU refuses to do what it should do.

    I go back to my first principle:

    If we were Germany...

    If/When the inevitable happens here (as I say my view within months) we need to have a serious rexamination of our membership against that outcome.

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  • If only your snow forecasts were as predictable as your anti-EU ones 😉

    You say your view is within months - we're over five years into this, yet who has managed to get pretty much everything they wanted in an agreement signed by both sides?

    Who talks the talk but when it comes to walking the walk has made so many heel turns when they reached the end that there's a large crater forming at the top of the hill?

    Have you withdrawn all of your previous criticism regarding AstraZeneca/Article 16 yet?

  • Such confidence on Ireland being forced out of the EU yet the charity bet offer remains open.


  • Your favoured course of action would lead to an immediate need to install border infrastructure in Ireland, which is case you haven't noticed is precisely what everyone has been trying to avoid.

    There remains zero risk of Ireland being forced out of the single market - the UK, despite its bluster, is essentially continuing to comply with the protocol. Your desire for pre-emptive punishment is bizarre and irrational.

  • The EU apparently has some very significant leverage against the UK that has been quietly mentioned before but not really brought to the fore yet.

    Boris Johnson has spent decades agitating against the European Union and the last five years battling to free the United Kingdom from the shackles of regulation from Brussels. Now he's in the awkward position of finding himself at the mercy of EU leaders for permission to rejoin an international treaty, or risk devastating Britain's multi-billion-dollar legal services industry.ano-convention-uk-europe-dispute-intl-cmd/index.html

  • TBF to Kermit, it's not irrational. It is seeing the UK appear to trample over agreements and appear to have no pushback.

    From acceptance of unilateral decisions, to the engagement in talks, reopening the WA. At every step it appears that the more the UK kicks and screams the more the EU are willing to move.

    But it is all appearance. The EU are getting the main things that they want at every turn. There is no doubt who is coming out of this whole sorry debacle in a better position. Regardless of the economics of it all, the political and diplomatic success has all been the EU's. While the like of Frost and Johnson complaining incessantly about the unfairness of it all plays out well in the media in the UK, it clearly carries no weight in the US, NZ and the EU as three examples.

    But I understand where Kermit is coming from. It is frustrating to think that the screaming kid in the corner appears to be getting what they want when everyone else is ignored. So the desire to see 'justice', by way of legal action or pulling out of talks or whatever, is a completely understandable desire. I know that I have wanted it many times when I read the latest diatribe coming from NO 10.

    But, what we have seen conclusively over the last 5 years, and very aptly demonstrated by the near invoking of Art 16 earlier in the year, is that while it may give one a feeling of control, that lashing out is exactly what the UK is looking for. They want to drag this down into the gutter, as they know that in reality they have nothing else.

  • Fully agree that the EU appears weak to the rest of the world having done this and I suspect it will embolden the UK government to agitate even more.

    Having said that,I'll be very happy if the EU do change the conditions of the protocol to break the impasse .

  • Its an odd take.

    You must also agree that the UK looks completely ridiculous, not to mention completely untrustworthy, to the rest of the world since they are looking to welch on the agreement they said a few months ago was brilliant.

    The UK don't need to be emboldened to agitate more. It has been their modus operandi for the last few years, increasing as the decision time came up. It is all they have.

    They have los the argument, there is simply no benefits to Brexit, they have painted the UK into a terrible corner and the only way to save themselves (for that is all it is about, nothing to do with saving the UK) is to continue to paint the EU as both an unmoving dictatorship and also a weak limp wristed surrender monkey.

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  • Even if they're trying to use to use the NIP as an agitant to sustain the noble Brexit struggle, it is falling flat in the English Tory heartlands as they gave Johnson the stomping majority to bypass the DUP.

    Attacking the deal they negotiated and boasted about back in December is also putting the Brexit heartlands to sleep.