The way forward for LC2021

Smacruairi

Treppen wrote: »

I corrected my own mocks before and was happy to give them a copy to get second opinion. I'll stand over everything but happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong.

If anything I always encourage students to appeal, I got shafted in leaving cert subjects and some university exams but I was too meek to question it at the time. After working the other side of the fence I can see it's the sqweeky wheel gets the oil, and challenge everything and hold people to account.

If you want to give yourself all that extra work, admin and headaches to get the DES out of a bind of their own creation, hey, fair play. But when I've 2 lc classes with 45 combined students, I won't be rushing to volunteer for seppuku!

Alqua

Treppen wrote: »

Also, yes Music will be a really big disaster if practicals don't go ahead. It's not unusual to have a student sitting mostly ordinary level subjects but do the Higher grade exam because their performance is so strong (and might have been told so since they were a toddler). All the way through they chose Music on the understanding that 50% of the exam would be performing.

Really would be a pity and indictment on the department/SEC to not work out an online exam solution like they came up with in RIAM, not the best answer but you're getting a recorded or live performance which can be graded. Not sure about group performance though ! Maybe just social distance in a hall as the numbers usually aren't that large.

I have a student in that situation. Amazing singer, only higher level subject.

Group performance is the stickler. They need time in school to prepare in groups, no way around that. You can't force a student to perform solo as I've heard a couple of teachers were planning to do(!), totally different requirement. Singing groups especially weren't able to rehearse from Sept-Dec as it was.

deiseindublin

Treppen wrote: »

Any Teacher would be mad to give predictive grade without any mocks.

Only if mocks done in school, with your own made up mock paper. I'm presuming past DEB and Examcraft papers are everywhere online.

Treppen

Smacruairi wrote: »

If you want to give yourself all that extra work, admin and headaches to get the DES out of a bind of their own creation, hey, fair play. But when I've 2 lc classes with 45 combined students, I won't be rushing to volunteer for seppuku!

If you got 4 weeks to correct them?

Treppen

deiseindublin wrote: »

Only if mocks done in school, with your own made up mock paper. I'm presuming past DEB and Examcraft papers are everywhere online.

Really though the way modified mocks should go, best of luck to any student willing to memorize old mocks, and hope it comes up in a modified mock exam.

It can be done but teachers have to agree to modify or tweek the papers sufficiently.

am_zarathustra

I mean if a kid learned all the previous questions ever on a mock paper from two companies they will have basically revised the entire course. I wouldn't mind if the kids did that, be solid work.

I'd be wary about PG alone, I'd like a blend, half PG, half modified exam. Both should, in theory, work as a reciprocol test for each other but still take pressure off.

Music etc are tricker, I assume due toncound quality etc that it's hard to so them online? How many students sit music at LC? I don't know many schools with more than one class, logistically could it be possible?

Bobtheman

I have total faith in the department to **** it up whatever choice is made

Alex86Eire

Is any school actually giving mocks? We still don't know what the story is with ours?
I'm happy to make my own paper and correct it.

rainbowtrout

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I mean if a kid learned all the previous questions ever on a mock paper from two companies they will have basically revised the entire course. I wouldn't mind if the kids did that, be solid work.

I'd be wary about PG alone, I'd like a blend, half PG, half modified exam. Both should, in theory, work as a reciprocol test for each other but still take pressure off.

Music etc are tricker, I assume due toncound quality etc that it's hard to so them online? How many students sit music at LC? I don't know many schools with more than one class, logistically could it be possible?

Off the top of my head I think it's somewhere in the region of 6000 doing Music.

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Off the top of my head I think it's somewhere in the region of 6000 doing Music.

6600 in 2019.. with a phenomenal amount getting the H2s and H3s (>30% in both grades).
Not so go flúirseach with the H1s though.

Yes recordings can be done. Considering theyve used recordings for moderation purposes for quite a while. It's easy enough to classify a performer even with the worst of recording quality.

Treppen

Alex86Eire wrote: »

Is any school actually giving mocks? We still don't know what the story is with ours?
I'm happy to make my own paper and correct it.

Yes ,all our teachers were told to have them ready to photocopy as soon as school opens. After DEB-gate we were told to make our own arrangements.

French Toast

Alex86Eire wrote: »

Is any school actually giving mocks? We still don't know what the story is with ours?
I'm happy to make my own paper and correct it.

Ours have been suspended indefinitely. Probably going to go ahead ASAP once we're back.

dg647

French Toast wrote: »

Ours have been suspended indefinitely. Probably going to go ahead ASAP once we're back.

DCG students have been given 8 days from the day we return to finish their project. It would be unfair to ask these students to do their mocks at the same time. I know that many schools don't have DCG so it won't affect them.

Rosita

You would wonder if, after probably two months out of school, getting LC students to sit a mock exam as soon as they return is fair and reasonable. It sounds more like schools desperately trying to gather data rather than serving the needs of either teacher or student at that point. Presumably the only way they will really be able to do themselves justice with such immediate effect is if they are given a huge steer in advance on what's coming up which surely undermines the objective credibility of the grades they get.

Surely there is an argument for (assuming schools go back in early March) giving mocks maybe in early May - which would keep students engaged and could be treated as a de facto LC for those who are looking for predicted grades. It would not necessarily have to count for the full 100% even of a predicted grade or predicted portion of a grade.

Obviously there is the basic reality that all schools would have to do them simultaneously but would that be beyond the wit of man to organise? Maybe I am making it all sound easier than it would be, and also not giving enough credit to teachers for what would usually be a very good stab anyway at where a student falls in terms of grade/standard no matter how they arrive at them. I just would be concerned about the fairness or need for students to walk straight into an exam just after arriving back.

Random sample

Rosita wrote: »

You would wonder if, after probably two months out of school getting LC students to sit a mock exam as soon as they return is fair and reasonable. It sounds more like schools desperately trying to gather data rather than serving the needs of either teacher or student at that point. Presumably the only will really be able t do themselves justice with such immediate effect is if they are given a huge steer in advance on what's coming up which surely undermines the objective credibility of the grades they get.

Surely there is an argument for (assuming schools go back in early March) giving mocks maybe in early May - which would keep students engaged and could be treated as a de facto LC for those who are looking for predicted grades. It would not necessarily have to count for the full 100% even of a predicted grade or predicted portion of a grade.

Obviously there is the basic reality that all schools would have to do them simultaneously but would that be beyond the wit of man to organise? Maybe I am making it all sound easier than it would be, and also not giving enough credit to teachers for what would usually be a very good stab anyway at where a student falls in terms of grade/standard no matter how they arrive at them. I just would be concerned about the fairness or need for students to walk straight into an exam just after arriving back.

I agree that March is not the time for mock exams. I don’t agree with trying to have them all on at the same time, that would take longer than most schools spend on mocks. The actual leaving cert is 3 weeks, but mocks are only 2 because all schools don’t have all options, and would have subjects against each other in a way that 2 subjects could run at the same time in the mock exams. It would be a lot of class time to lose.

Wanderer78

I find it somewhat disturbing our resistance to radically changing our educational system, it no longer truly serves us, covid is a perfect opportunity to do so, but here we are.....

shesty

I think the key part of your post Rosita, is the phrase "will of man". Anything can be changed, as long as there is the will (and often, the budget) to do it.In this case it is mainly will.
Common sense would say late April/early May at this point for Mocks.(can't remember exact Easter date). Then again, common sense is not that common.

Smacruairi

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I find it somewhat disturbing our resistance to radically changing our educational system, it no longer truly serves us, covid is a perfect opportunity to do so, but here we are.....

It's resistance to change for changes sake. What about the educational system no longer serves us?

It's about getting fundamentals in several subjects, learning hard work, determination, resilience, and negotiation. It also has a bit of pressure to introduce students to the realities of life. It's not as outdated as people think.

rainbowtrout

Irish Times reporting this morning that 40% of students who sat the winter Leaving Cert got a higher grade in the written exam than the predicted grade

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/nearly-40-of-written-leaving-cert-exams-scored-higher-than-calculated-grades-1.4473526

Wanderer78

Smacruairi wrote:

It's about getting fundamentals in several subjects, learning hard work, determination, resilience, and negotiation. It also has a bit of pressure to introduce students to the realities of life. It's not as outdated as people think.

By God it is, it's primarily rote learning, it teaches kids, in order to be successful you must continually work hard, and if you don't bring that work home with you, you 'll be a failure, being competitive is far more important than being cooperative, being yourself is frowned upon, it encourages herd mentality, I.e. similar thinking, then at the end of it all, how prepared are you truly for adulthood? Jesus, what are we doing to kids!

km79

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Irish Times reporting this morning that 40% of students who sat the winter Leaving Cert got a higher grade in the written exam than the predicted grade

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/nearly-40-of-written-leaving-cert-exams-scored-higher-than-calculated-grades-1.4473526

I suppose that makes sense as they only say the ones they felt they could improve on ?
Turns out 60% of them were wrong on that

Mrsmum

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Irish Times reporting this morning that 40% of students who sat the winter Leaving Cert got a higher grade in the written exam than the predicted grade

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/nearly-40-of-written-leaving-cert-exams-scored-higher-than-calculated-grades-1.4473526

A lot of them only did one subject, I think three was the most subjects undertaken. No one did the full LC. So it's neither here nor there regarding written LC over PG imo.

PoolDude

Big validation for them wanting PG then.

rainbowtrout

Mrsmum wrote: »

A lot of them only did one subject, I think three was the most subjects undertaken. No one did the full LC. So it's neither here nor there regarding written LC over PG imo.

I know a girl that did I think 5 or 6 subjects. So you can't just dismiss the grades. Bar a couple of subjects, the project was not included, the exams were 100% written.

Mrsmum

Mrsmum wrote: »

A lot of them only did one subject, I think three was the most subjects undertaken. No one did the full LC. So it's neither here nor there regarding written LC over PG imo.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I know a girl that did I think 5 or 6 subjects. So you can't just dismiss the grades. Bar a couple of subjects, the project was not included, the exams were 100% written.

Very rare case and J hope she did well. The fact remains the vast majority did one, two or three subjects. Obviously that is not the same as a normal LC where the workload is seven subjects. If it's the same sure let them all do three subjects this year.

db

Rosita wrote: »

You would wonder if, after probably two months out of school getting LC students to sit a mock exam as soon as they return is fair and reasonable. It sounds more like schools desperately trying to gather data rather than serving the needs of either teacher or student at that point. Presumably the only will really be able t do themselves justice with such immediate effect is if they are given a huge steer in advance on what's coming up which surely undermines the objective credibility of the grades they get.

Surely there is an argument for (assuming schools go back in early March) giving mocks maybe in early May - which would keep students engaged and could be treated as a de facto LC for those who are looking for predicted grades. It would not necessarily have to count for the full 100% even of a predicted grade or predicted portion of a grade.

Obviously there is the basic reality that all schools would have to do them simultaneously but would that be beyond the wit of man to organise? Maybe I am making it all sound easier than it would be, and also not giving enough credit to teachers for what would usually be a very good stab anyway at where a student falls in terms of grade/standard no matter how they arrive at them. I just would be concerned about the fairness or need for students to walk straight into an exam just after arriving back.

Totally pointless running mocks in May. The whole point of them is to get a sense of where they are at and what areas they need to improve on. Having mocks that late would be like a de facto leaving cert so the teachers could use the results for "predictive" grades. If the mocks cannot be run before Easter and graded as quickly as possible, then it would be better to use the time for classes, finishing practical projects, planning the run into the actual leaving cert etc.

km79

PoolDude wrote: »

Big validation for them wanting PG then.

I never thought of it like that. Interesting alright.....

History Queen

PoolDude wrote: »

Big validation for them wanting PG then.

I didn't think so considering 40% got better grades without being in class for 5 months before the exams. Imagineif they had had the normal class contact time in the run up.

Mrsmum

Following on from Nov results just released, would there be anything to be said for all students doing the written LC in Irish,English and Maths and predictive grades in the other subjects?
Also just out of curiosity, are some subjects easier to give a Pg for than others ie Maths easier than English ? Music easier than History ? Or all equally as difficult ?.

rainbowtrout

Mrsmum wrote: »

Following on from Nov results just released, would there be anything to be said for all students doing the written LC in Irish,English and Maths and predictive grades in the other subjects?
Also just out of curiosity, are some subjects easier to give a Pg for than others ie Maths easier than English ? Music easier than History ? Or all equally as difficult ?.

Not all students would consider English, Irish and Maths their best subjects - or worst depending on what way you want to look at exams v predicted grades.

It's as difficult to predict a grade in any subject. You know a student's ability, you know how they have scored in class tests on the day. You give your best estimation based on that, but it could go either way on the day. There are students every year who surprise their teachers by pulling a higher grade out of the bag, equally there are students who make a complete mess of the paper and score lower than expected.