Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

amacca

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Micheál is around long enough in politics to be able to read the room, and health fears aside is able to see that the public are generally not on the side of Norma when it comes to reopening schools. She has handled it woefully, and he knows it. She can't help herself. He would like to remain in government at the next election, she is expendable.

I thought she was expendable if push came to shove all along

It was a master stroke of an appointment in that

1) she was a woman
2) she was from Kerry

And those two above got around the gender issue a bit with so many male FF Tds and curb the healy raes a bit by having a Kerry based TD which on the outside looked like the justifications for her appointment

But another reason was

3) slot someone inexperienced in there in a brief that was bound to be a ****show from day one and the fallout will have less of an impact on the party/MM and if they somehow handle it then fine but if they dont she's a branch of a tree they dont mind losing and by getting rid of her if they have to they get a free pass on what was probably going to be a **** up all along.....and survive to fight another day.

I never really like Martin (or any politician from any party tbh) but I'd have a lot of respect for him as a strategist/oponent after watching this play out to date.....he's a survivor that's for sure and it seems he knows how best to play the cards he's given and move some of the pawns around him + sideline threats.

Neleven

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Last year we taught students until 12th March. We continued to teach them online until May 8th. The year was done at that stage. They would have completed project work in most subjects, they would have done mocks, there would have been two years of tests to go on.

This year is completely different. No mocks (they do bring their own issues in assessing the veracity of the grade achieved), most project work is nowhere near completed and in some cases not started. A lot of language teachers do mock orals closer to the time of the real thing, that would not have begun yet. This year's cohort would have done summer tests at home last year so the validity of those grades is questionable. Many didn't engage at all last summer. There is far less to go on this year. This is the usual point in the year when you start to see students kick it up a gear, some from the mocks and some afterwards when reality starts to hit home.

Very hard to standardise predicted grades against those who sit exams. The DES weren't able to standardise grades accurately for the entire country last year

The point is though they would be standardised against their classmates not the entire country so if the group of - say - 5 around them average a H3 then they get a H3. While the grade predicted matters, the ranking is what matters more in the predicted grade, not just the actual grade. I acknowledge all the other objections to PG you make but I am just thinking aloud here about how it might work. Of course it isn’t perfect but has it any potential?
For the record I do not want to go down the route of predicted grades, though thankfully I do not have a LC class this year so have no real skin in the game.

j@utis

ac0607 wrote: »

The half term is meant to be 15th feb, why not reopen on Feb 15th which would mean 5 weeks lost, but they were due to be off that week so that is one week back, and cancel the Easter Holidays 2 weeks meaning that 3 of the 5 weeks are pulled back and maybe extend the year by a week and suddenly we are back to almost a full year.

It is amazing that no politicians are suggesting this, I mean why would they need a half term when they have not been back to school?

Because teachers need their holidays??

History Queen

Bananaleaf wrote: »

They'll just rebrand themselves as the SCT - that reform is coming down the line sure.

Harder to get rid of them than this poxy virus!

You just couldn't let me be happy...

downthemiddle

ac0607 wrote: »

The half term is meant to be 15th feb, why not reopen on Feb 15th which would mean 5 weeks lost, but they were due to be off that week so that is one week back, and cancel the Easter Holidays 2 weeks meaning that 3 of the 5 weeks are pulled back and maybe extend the year by a week and suddenly we are back to almost a full year.

It is amazing that no politicians are suggesting this, I mean why would they need a half term when they have not been back to school?

There were 77/1910 reasons today why school will not reopen on Feb 15th.

BonsaiKitten

ac0607 wrote: »

The half term is meant to be 15th feb, why not reopen on Feb 15th which would mean 5 weeks lost, but they were due to be off that week so that is one week back, and cancel the Easter Holidays 2 weeks meaning that 3 of the 5 weeks are pulled back and maybe extend the year by a week and suddenly we are back to almost a full year.

It is amazing that no politicians are suggesting this, I mean why would they need a half term when they have not been back to school?

Because they have been taught remotely for the past two weeks. Sorry, I don't work for free. If they want to entirely close the schools until the 15th and then reopen in person - catching up on 3 weeks off by using breaks - then I'm ok with that. But I am not doing online learning now and then 4 weeks extra in-person work on top of that.

History Queen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I disagree. There can't be an either or. The students have a contract of sorts with the SEC. They have a right to sit exams, it can't be either/or. If they opt for predicted grades, they can't have contact with teachers in order not to influence them. But they can't down tools in February, it's too early. Plenty would opt out at this point no doubt, but what purpose would it serve? They will have completed 5 months of Leaving Cert and had three months of schools online last year with wide variations in engagement. How is anyone supposed to assess that mess accurately?

And if students were to opt out now in favour of predicted grades, and later on decided to sit the exams because they weren't happy with predicted grades then they would have missed months of school. Not exactly conducive to doing well on a written exam for a course they had only completed half of.

Not to mind the fact that predicted grades were an absolute shit show last year, and with the way they panned out you can guarantee that grades submitted will be even higher this year.

Also many of these students intend on going to college next year and will spend an awful lot of time trying to catch up on material and survive in college if they don't complete their LC courses and don't have the groundwork completed in the relevant subjects.

I agree with all of this. You have put it much more eloquently than my attempts.

rainbowtrout

Neleven wrote: »

The point is though they would be standardised against their classmates not the entire country so if the group of - say - 5 around them average a H3 then they get a H3. While the grade predicted matters, the ranking is what matters more in the predicted grade, not just the actual grade. I acknowledge all the other objections to PG you make but I am just thinking aloud here about how it might work. Of course it isn’t perfect but has it any potential?
For the record I do not want to go down the route of predicted grades, though thankfully I do not have a LC class this year so have no real skin in the game.

Then it largely comes down to who sits exams and who doesn't. There are a cohort of students in the country who don't want to be in school and don't want to engage with the work and will scrape through the LC, and would happily take a set of predicted grades if it means not having to do the exams. Does that mean if the students who are more motivated and decide to sit the exams and get higher grades allow that student to achieve a grade well beyond their ability for free?

I know some of our students were gleeful last year when it was initially announced that orals would be given full marks and because the Irish oral was worth 40%, it meant that they wouldn't have to sit an exam, that they would automatically pass. Or if they sat the exam and didn't do a stroke of work for it there were no consequences, they couldn't fail. I don't want to see that happen where students play a game of picking and choosing to see what is the best possible grade outcome for the least amount of work.

wirelessdude01

ac0607 wrote: »

The half term is meant to be 15th feb, why not reopen on Feb 15th which would mean 5 weeks lost, but they were due to be off that week so that is one week back, and cancel the Easter Holidays 2 weeks meaning that 3 of the 5 weeks are pulled back and maybe extend the year by a week and suddenly we are back to almost a full year.

It is amazing that no politicians are suggesting this, I mean why would they need a half term when they have not been back to school?

Ahh, we are still working.

theballz

ac0607 wrote: »

The half term is meant to be 15th feb, why not reopen on Feb 15th which would mean 5 weeks lost, but they were due to be off that week so that is one week back, and cancel the Easter Holidays 2 weeks meaning that 3 of the 5 weeks are pulled back and maybe extend the year by a week and suddenly we are back to almost a full year.

It is amazing that no politicians are suggesting this, I mean why would they need a half term when they have not been back to school?

Because it won’t be safe by then. How you think it would be amazes me.

ac0607

Because teachers need their holidays??



I hope you are been sarcastic, the schools have been closed, they get paid for 52 weeks a year less normal holidays.

Yes they are trying to home school but it is not working, and if the only thing stopping school kids getting the education they are entitled to and deserve is teachers not getting the full complement of holidays they get, well that is not a good enough reason for them not to work the additional hours.

There are plenty of people working crazy hours in hospitals and care homes etc. This is a time for everyone to give to the community and society not to be crying wolf that they have to work a few extra days or weeks.

am_zarathustra

ac0607 wrote: »

Because teachers need their holidays??



I hope you are been sarcastic, the schools have been closed, they get paid for 52 weeks a year less normal holidays.

Yes they are trying to home school but it is not working, and if the only thing stopping school kids getting the education they are entitled to and deserve is teachers not getting the full complement of holidays they get, well that is not a good enough reason for them not to work the additional hours.

There are plenty of people working crazy hours in hospitals and care homes etc. This is a time for everyone to give to the community and society not to be crying wolf that they have to work a few extra days or weeks.

They get paid overtime for these hours. Contracts exist for a reason and are leagally binding. Based on the LC maths I've been correcting all evening, I am definitely teaching and the kids are most definitely learning. I'll remind myself that I'm on holidays when I'm prepping my work for the week tomorrow afternoon

Bananaleaf

amacca wrote: »

I thought she was expendable if push came to shove all along

It was a master stroke of an appointment in that

1) she was a woman
2) she was from Kerry

And those two above got around the gender issue a bit with so many male FF Tds and curb the healy raes a bit by having a Kerry based TD which on the outside looked like the justifications for her appointment

But another reason was

3) slot someone inexperienced in there in a brief that was bound to be a ****show from day one and the fallout will have less of an impact on the party/MM and if they somehow handle it then fine but if they dont she's a branch of a tree they dont mind losing and by getting rid of her if they have to they get a free pass on what was probably going to be a **** up all along.....and survive to fight another day.

I never really like Martin (or any politician from any party tbh) but I'd have a lot of respect for him as a strategist/oponent after watching this play out to date.....he's a survivor that's for sure and it seems he knows how best to play the cards he's given and move some of the pawns around him + sideline threats.

And this right here is why I'd never make a politician and I'm no good at chess

wirelessdude01

ac0607 wrote: »

Because teachers need their holidays??



I hope you are been sarcastic, the schools have been closed, they get paid for 52 weeks a year less normal holidays.

Yes they are trying to home school but it is not working, and if the only thing stopping school kids getting the education they are entitled to and deserve is teachers not getting the full complement of holidays they get, well that is not a good enough reason for them not to work the additional hours.

There are plenty of people working crazy hours in hospitals and care homes etc. This is a time for everyone to give to the community and society not to be crying wolf that they have to work a few extra days or weeks.

Ahh the aul green jersey argument, holidays and pay all in the one piece. Outstanding.

rainbowtrout

amacca wrote: »

I thought she was expendable if push came to shove all along

It was a master stroke of an appointment in that

1) she was a woman
2) she was from Kerry

And those two above got around the gender issue a bit with so many male FF Tds and curb the healy raes a bit by having a Kerry based TD which on the outside looked like the justifications for her appointment

But another reason was

3) slot someone inexperienced in there in a brief that was bound to be a ****show from day one and the fallout will have less of an impact on the party/MM and if they somehow handle it then fine but if they dont she's a branch of a tree they dont mind losing and by getting rid of her if they have to they get a free pass on what was probably going to be a **** up all along.....and survive to fight another day.

I never really like Martin (or any politician from any party tbh) but I'd have a lot of respect for him as a strategist/oponent after watching this play out to date.....he's a survivor that's for sure and it seems he knows how best to play the cards he's given and move some of the pawns around him + sideline threats.

Yes I totally agree. FF have a woeful record of appointing women to cabinet. There was the whole furore about a lack of TDs for the west of Ireland. She ticked two boxes and was a teacher to boot. But someone who is completely out of her depth. If it worked out, happy days, a bonus for the party and might shore up a seat in Kerry where the Healy Raes run the show, if she is a failure, no skin off their nose in a constituency they might not expect to win in.

I would imagine the Healy Raes are watching all of this right now and wondering if they can use it to get a third one of the clan elected the next time round.

Looking at that quote more and more from Micheál, it's quite astonishing. I've been in teaching for 20 years and I can't recall any politician from any party speak of the teaching unions with any positivity on any issue ever. He's practically cheerleading with those few words. To see MM making a 'supportive' comment about the stance of the unions says a lot about Norma's position within the party and her showing the last few weeks.

wirelessdude01

am_zarathustra wrote: »

They get paid overtime for these hours. Contracts exist for a reason and are leagally binding. Based on the LC maths I've been correcting all evening, I am definitely teaching and the kids are most definitely learning. I'll remind myself that I'm on holidays when I'm prepping my work for the week tomorrow afternoon

No remember, some poster on board said it isn't real teaching and the students aren't really learning.

Lisha

mcgragger wrote: »

I honestly don't think schools will be back before the end of April

Christ

If it has to be that way then that’s just it. The general public’s safety comes first. I’m not even worried about my kids academically. It’s what they are losing out on socially that’s is so hard. Fcuk Covid.

Neleven

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Then it largely comes down to who sits exams and who doesn't. There are a cohort of students in the country who don't want to be in school and don't want to engage with the work and will scrape through the LC, and would happily take a set of predicted grades if it means not having to do the exams. Does that mean if the students who are more motivated and decide to sit the exams and get higher grades allow that student to achieve a grade well beyond their ability for free?

I know some of our students were gleeful last year when it was initially announced that orals would be given full marks and because the Irish oral was worth 40%, it meant that they wouldn't have to sit an exam, that they would automatically pass. Or if they sat the exam and didn't do a stroke of work for it there were no consequences, they couldn't fail. I don't want to see that happen where students play a game of picking and choosing to see what is the best possible grade outcome for the least amount of work.

I do agree with this. Less hardworking students might well have good reason to choose predicted over an actual exam. I think I will now stop thinking aloud...

mohawk

Lots of people seem to be onboard the changing the school holiday train.

My lad is in 5th. I work from home. His school work keeps him occupied for a few hours every day while I work and keeps him off his console and gives him some bit of routine. In this weather he doesn’t’ spend as much time outdoors as he would at other times of the year and he can’t be playing video games all day it’s not good for him.

If you want to send them to school in July then they can’t be doing school work now as this would be their holidays. So I have to work so in order to do my job I can’t have a bored kid hanging around and he will end up on his console all day until I finish work and get him out for a walk.

Believe me you do not want a class full of children going back to school in March or April or whenever who have zero routine and have been glued to their PlayStations. Honestly they would be a nightmare. Too much screen time has a massive effect on a child’s mood and behaviour.

Then there is the big unknown. How long before they can go back? Will reducing summer/Easter holidays be enough to make up the time?

jimmytwotimes 2013

ac0607 wrote: »

Yes they are trying to home school but it is not working,

lol

Bananaleaf

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Ahh the aul green jersey argument, holidays and pay all in the one piece. Outstanding.

Lol.

My Pilates instructor has been doing her classes online for us since lockdown 1. She keeps emailing me, telling me that I havent paid my fees since March. I was like, b1tch please, the studio hasn't been open in almost a year. I'm not paying you. You haven't been going to work.

Cheek of her! :rolleyes:

Mrsmum

My son tells me what the kids want is a predictive grade from their teacher, if they don't like the mark in a particular subject they get to do an exam in that or as many subjects as you like in August. That's the plan !

ac0607

Ahh the aul green jersey argument, holidays and pay all in the one piece. Outstanding.



Thank God our doctors nurses and general hospital staff don't have such a selfish outlook.

Some of us including me have seen very profitable businesses cease trading completely because of Covid. From having a six figure income in 2018 to living of €350 a week, I would have every right to complain about been hard done by etc.

This is a natural disaster and it is a time for people to stand up and be counted etc.

Teachers have not seen any loss in income, and when working from home are saved the daily commute etc they would have had.

As JFK said ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country.

History Queen

Mrsmum wrote: »

My son tells me what the kids want is a predictive grade from their teacher, if they don't like the mark in a particular subject they get to do an exam in that or as many subjects as you like in August. That's the plan !

Do you happen to know if they expect classes to end now or continue to June?

ac0607

@banana leaf

Lol.

My Pilates instructor has been doing her classes online for us since lockdown 1. She keeps emailing me, telling me that I havent paid my fees since March. I was like, b1tch please, the studio hasn't been open in almost a year. I'm not paying you. You haven't been going to work.

Some people!


so you think your pilates instructor should work for free???

DraftDodger

Invoking JFK lol.

Mrsmum

History Queen wrote: »

Doyou hapoen to know if they expect classes to end now or continue to June?

Continue for sure so they can present exceptional work to their teachers.

History Queen

Mrsmum wrote: »

Continue for sure so they can present exceptional work to their teachers.

How do they suggest overcoming the fact that contact between teachers and students was prohibited last year to prevent teachers being unduly influenced as well as people gaming the system?

(Sorry if that comes across as an interrogation, I just cannot get my head around what they are asking for and expecting)

Bananaleaf

ac0607 wrote: »

I hope you are been sarcastic, the schools have been closed, they get paid for 52 weeks a year less normal holidays.

Yes they are trying to home school but it is not working, and if the only thing stopping school kids getting the education they are entitled to and deserve is teachers not getting the full complement of holidays they get, well that is not a good enough reason for them not to work the additional hours.

There are plenty of people working crazy hours in hospitals and care homes etc. This is a time for everyone to give to the community and society not to be crying wolf that they have to work a few extra days or weeks.

ac0607 wrote: »

so you think your pilates instructor should work for free???

No I don't. And I don't think teachers should either.

rainbowtrout

Mrsmum wrote: »

My son tells me what the kids want is a predictive grade from their teacher, if they don't like the mark in a particular subject they get to do an exam in that or as many subjects as you like in August. That's the plan !

Yes, they want it all ways. How would he feel if he got what he wanted next month and was told, 'you can have your predicted grade, but you can't attend school for the rest of the year as you can't influence your teacher' and then found in August that he wasn't happy with that predicted grade and decided to sit the exam, and then found that the exam was based on the entire course, of which he missed the final four months of Leaving Cert????

That's the question I put to my Leaving Certs last week when it came up in our online class.