Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

Sephiroth_dude

...no, not on September the 3rd (although for all I know they might have), it's the 3rd thread...
1st thread
2nd thread
3rd thread
4th thread
Threadbans carry over

Shouldn't need to say this, but unfortunately too many of you seem to ignore a very basic principle when posting - remain civil to each other, otherwise you will have posting privileges removed

Mod:

Can we not have the roundabout question of putting teachers on PUP every 10 pages or so please.

You know the answer to the question so why bother asking it.

Mod warning added 22/01/21
Stick to the topic, which is not moderation or other users. Remain civil. Report, don't react, to posts or posters who you think are an issue. This is unfortunately a polarised topic for some (not all). There is some middle ground though and please do not think the worse of posters simply because you have opposing views

hotmail.com

The opposition are very annoying on schools. I see Brid Smith saying that arrangements should be made for children with special needs. Social Democrats saying something similar now.

They were shouting the loudest to close the schools.

Aodhan O'Riordan - don't get me started. He'll say anything to get votes.

khalessi

hotmail.com wrote: »

The opposition are very annoying on schools. I see Brid Smith saying that arrangements should be made for children with special needs. Social Democrats saying something similar now.

They were shouting the loudest to close the schools.

Aodhan O'Riordan - don't get me started. He'll say anything to get votes.

Brid Smith has been meeting online with teachers and parents since before Christmas and I dont know much about her but she did put across about schools having to be safe and corrected Patrick O'Donovon his government mantra

Loafing Oaf

hotmail.com wrote: »

Aodhan O'Riordan - don't get me started. He'll say anything to get votes.

Yeah he was very definite the other day that Leaving Certs should be brought back but quickly changed his tune when he saw the way the wind was blowing, sorry, 'public health advice':rolleyes:

...Ghost...

We have a difficult few weeks ahead of us. Let's all work together to keep more people safe and well

Mrsmum

I think something will have to be done for special needs kids. The rest of us will cope, perfectly well or badly, but we'll cope. I just caugh a bit there on Newstalk where a mother was talking about her son. He's awake night and day and spends the day lying on the floor kicking it. I only caught a small bit but that would break your heart. And there's far worse than that. Clearly those families need support somehow. I'm worried about my son in LC but I know I couldn't cope at all if I were a mother like that lady. They are the ones that need help first.

plodder

is_that_so wrote:

That puts some of them in a different group anyway. Groups are categorised according to the risk from COVID. Vaccinate them and their risk and the potential health service pressure diminishes.

I would have thought that the potential for the UK variant to affect children more, might result in reconsideration of the priorities. Also, it's not clear to what extent the disastrous effect on Leaving cert students has been taken into account either. If it were restricted to LC teachers only with other restrictions based on age or vulnerability, I suspect you're talking about < 10,000 people. Could we really not guarantee to offer the vaccine to that cohort within the next two months?

jrosen

Email from our primary school teacher, very detailed. I have mentioned before how organized and tech knowledgeable he seems to be. Hie plan to me seems very manageable and very flexible. I think it will work for all families.
My son is very excited.

Deeec

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think something will have to be done for special needs kids. The rest of us will cope, perfectly well or badly, but we'll cope. I just caugh a bit there on Newstalk where a mother was talking about her son. He's awake night and day and spends the day lying on the floor kicking it. I only caught a small bit but that would break your heart. And there's far worse than that. Clearly those families need support somehow. I'm worried about my son in LC but I know I couldn't cope at all if I were a mother like that lady. They are the ones that need help first.

I agree something needs to be done to help these families. Im not sure opening special schools is the answer though. Money needs to be spent sending services to homes in a safe manner. Maybe provide sensory equipment to homes etc to help families. Government will have to do whatever it takes to help these kids and families and they need to act quick on this.

jrosen

I actually do think they should have opened the schools for SN kids. Perhaps not for every student every day but there could have been an approach taken were the kids got in at some point.
As said above, the rest of us will muddle through.

Deeec

jrosen wrote: »

Email from our primary school teacher, very detailed. I have mentioned before how organized and tech knowledgeable he seems to be. Hie plan to me seems very manageable and very flexible. I think it will work for all families.
My son is very excited.

I had an email from my kids school this morning aswell and I am very happy with what they have put in place. In the last school closure I was very unhappy with the level of support we received from the school. I literally had to become their teacher!

This time around they have put an online platform in place where they will upload video tutorials which can be viewed at anytime. They are also only going to work on Maths, English and Irish. Teachers are also available for queries. Im very impressed by this sensible approach and is workable in our house.

mirrorwall14

@C__MC from the last thread

The easiest way to share a text book is to have a digitial version of it on your computer and then screenshare with your students. What book is it?

scouserstation

Deeec wrote: »

I agree something needs to be done to help these families. Im not sure opening special schools is the answer though. Money needs to be spent sending services to homes in a safe manner. Maybe provide sensory equipment to homes etc to help families. Government will have to do whatever it takes to help these kids and families and they need to act quick on this.

Would it not be easier to just open SN schools as sending service providers to people's homes would carry probably more risk than having the kids in a regulated environment that the units can provide

The Wordress

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think something will have to be done for special needs kids. The rest of us will cope, perfectly well or badly, but we'll cope. I just caugh a bit there on Newstalk where a mother was talking about her son. He's awake night and day and spends the day lying on the floor kicking it. I only caught a small bit but that would break your heart. And there's far worse than that. Clearly those families need support somehow. I'm worried about my son in LC but I know I couldn't cope at all if I were a mother like that lady. They are the ones that need help first.

What I heard mentioned before was anyone in Special Ed who did not have childcare committments or otherwise could do home school tuition for Special Needs children, which would have worked in theory because it massively reduced contacts and people could stay in the same bubble.

I think the school and outside agencies need to work with parents here to have a plan in place for the child.

Yes, I feel for Special Needs parents but I think it is just too dangerous to open schools at the minute.

Deeec

scouserstation wrote: »

Would it not be easier to just open SN schools as sending service providers to people's homes would carry probably more risk than having the kids in a regulated environment that the units can provide

Possibly Im just throwing out suggestions. My thinking was that the personal needs of the kids could then be looked after by parents. The issue with opening the special schools seems to be the level of personal contact between staff and the kids. In a home setting parents are meeting those needs and the person going into help is providing professional services and not SNA services. Maybe Im completely wrong in my thinking though.

It would have to be done on a safe manner ie. PPE provided etc.

Eoinbmw

Deeec wrote: »

Possibly Im just throwing out suggestions. My thinking was that the personal needs of the kids could then be looked after by parents. The issue with opening the special schools seems to be the level of personal contact between staff and the kids. In a home setting parents are meeting those needs and the person going into help is providing professional services and not SNA services. Maybe Im completely wrong in my thinking though.

It would have to be done on a safe manner ie. PPE provided etc.

It might be feasible for some children but others really need to get away from the home environment it is part of the problem unfortunately!
There is no one size fits all for these children!

Mrsmum

Eoinbmw wrote: »

It might be feasible for some children but others really need to get away from the home environment it is part of the problem unfortunately!
There is no one size fits all for these children!

And also, no doubt, the little bit of respite would make their families better able to look after them the rest of the time too.

Triangle

I feel that the next ps pay increase should be balanced in favor of the sectors that have positively helped during the pandemic I. E. HSE front line, gardai and army (I'm sure there's others out there too)
But the fact that they take on new tasks and risks without complaint should be applauded and rewarded.

Eoinbmw

Mrsmum wrote: »

And also, no doubt, the little bit of respite would make their families better able to look after them the rest of the time too.

That is a Fact!

Stateofyou

jrosen wrote: »

Email from our primary school teacher, very detailed. I have mentioned before how organized and tech knowledgeable he seems to be. Hie plan to me seems very manageable and very flexible. I think it will work for all families.
My son is very excited.

That sounds great! We've yet to hear. Would you mind giving a bit of detail on what's been planned?

Deeec

Eoinbmw wrote: »

It might be feasible for some children but others really need to get away from the home environment it is part of the problem unfortunately!
There is no one size fits all for these children!

Yeah its not an easy issue to find a solution for. Each child probably needs their own plan to suit their needs. Also my plan does nothing to help parents cope. I really hope that some help is put in place to make it easier for kids and parents. My heart goes out to any family in this difficult situation.

lulublue22

One of the most interesting aspects of the special needs debate is the lack of discussion around the withdrawal of 1:1 services ie s&l , OT and CAMHS due to the current situation yet it is perfectly feasible to open special schools. Doesn’t make sense to me.


ETA - Due to inclusion there are also a huge cohort of children with addition / special needs in mainstream classes . A number of these children will also be severely affected by the closure of schools. Why are they not as entitled to provision by virtue of the fact they don’t attend a special school / class. The issue isn’t as clearcut as some would like to make out.

mirrorwall14

Stateofyou wrote: »

That sounds great! We've yet to hear. Would you mind giving a bit of detail on what's been planned?

Just to say, second level here, we’ve been on meetings all day/yesterday and are planning everything. Info for parents will come but it’s not ready yet. I’d imagine it will come later for you

jimmytwotimes 2013

Triangle wrote: »

I feel that the next ps pay increase should be balanced in favor of the sectors that have positively helped during the pandemic I. E. HSE front line, gardai and army (I'm sure there's others out there too)
But the fact that they take on new tasks and risks without complaint should be applauded and rewarded.

Agree.

The move of education to online platforms with little Dept guidance is to be commended and hopefully they think of this too at the next round of pay talks.

A lot of work has gone in to this and at short notice on both occasions.

Stateofyou

Triangle wrote: »

I feel that the next ps pay increase should be balanced in favor of the sectors that have positively helped during the pandemic I. E. HSE front line, gardai and army (I'm sure there's others out there too)
But the fact that they take on new tasks and risks without complaint should be applauded and rewarded.

Great, so we can include teachers in that as they have also taken on the extra tasks of health and safety and online teaching.

When my kids were kept home just after Halloween, the teachers made sure to check in and send photos of maths and Irish lessons. Didn't have to as it was our choice but they did. They were amply rewarded with Christmas treats this year and a word of praise to the principal.

Stateofyou

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Just to say, second level here, we’ve been on meetings all day/yesterday and are planning everything. Info for parents will come but it’s not ready yet. I’d imagine it will come later for you

Ah yeah, not worried or anything, just curious to see what others are doing since every school will have a different approach!

mirrorwall14

Stateofyou wrote: »

Ah yeah, not worried or anything, just curious to see what others are doing since every school will have a different approach!

They will. Even our school has massively shifted since last lockdown based on feedback from students, teachers and parents!

Stateofyou

Do ye know if there are many parents reaching out to give opinions on what they'd like to see for remote learning? I know some schools have asked for this but wondering the extent of it.

DSN

Much as I dread the next few weeks I agree needs must at this stage. Email from primary school already, she was the teacher my son had last year now my daughter has her & she was very organised & responsive & this time we on seesaw & she said she's adding prerecorded videos / tutorials as well. She does best she can with remote 10/11 yer olds! Waiting to hear about the 1st yr, but I think they were ok last year so I hear - varying by teacher - the usual. I do think some subject v hard to teach remotely as well. I do fee for special needs & LCs tho not sure what the answer is. Just hope this won't be for long 🥴

eviltwin

Great to see some innovative thinking from schools. Unfortunately ours is asking parents to come into the school on Monday to collect books and the kids just carry on as normal.

Eoinbmw

eviltwin wrote: »

Great to see some innovative thinking from schools. Unfortunately ours is asking parents to come into the school on Monday to collect books and the kids just carry on as normal.

My youngest daughters is the same!

Stateofyou

eviltwin wrote: »

Great to see some innovative thinking from schools. Unfortunately ours is asking parents to come into the school on Monday to collect books and the kids just carry on as normal.

What do you mean, assigned work and parents teaching the material?

Smacruairi

eviltwin wrote: »

Great to see some innovative thinking from schools. Unfortunately ours is asking parents to come into the school on Monday to collect books and the kids just carry on as normal.

Demand more interaction. Use your class reps if you have them, defo your parent reps on board of management. If the childcare excuse is used ask for prerecorded videos on a medium like edmodo, schoology, or teams/Google classroom.

eviltwin

Stateofyou wrote: »

What do you mean, assigned work and parents teaching the material?

They will be given assignments on Google classroom - spellings, Irish and a maths problem and writing task every day. No mention of pre recorded videos or check ins or anything like that. I’ve emailed asking if a weekly zoom call could be organised, I know my son would benefit from seeing his friends and teacher, but no word so far.

Smacruairi

eviltwin wrote: »

They will be given assignments on Google classroom - spellings, Irish and a maths problem and writing task every day. No mention of pre recorded videos or check ins or anything like that. I’ve emailed asking if a weekly zoom call could be organised, I know my son would benefit from seeing his friends and teacher, but no word so far.

Yeah they should be better set up. If they are using Google they probs won't use zoom as its not the selected platform, but no reason they can't run a live lunch time call for everyone to chat. It could be even be supervised by a parent on a rotating basis which would create buy in by everybody.

Key to this is everyone in this together, not the school being a service provider but the focus of thr community.

Eoinbmw

eviltwin wrote: »

They will be given assignments on Google classroom - spellings, Irish and a maths problem and writing task every day. No mention of pre recorded videos or check ins or anything like that. I’ve emailed asking if a weekly zoom call could be organised, I know my son would benefit from seeing his friends and teacher, but no word so far.

Mine must be attending the same school lol!

jrosen

Ours teacher uses google classroom but will also be taking smaller groups for zoom. I dont believe this will be a wide spread school approach. I think we have just gotten lucky with our teacher this tear.

KrustyUCC

Liveline now is very informative now with parents on with the devastation of children with special needs not being allowed back to school

hotmail.com

Joe Duffy talking about the education for special needs children.

hotmail.com

Aodhan O'Riordan will change his position after today's Lifeline no doubt.

Stateofyou

eviltwin wrote: »

They will be given assignments on Google classroom - spellings, Irish and a maths problem and writing task every day. No mention of pre recorded videos or check ins or anything like that. I’ve emailed asking if a weekly zoom call could be organised, I know my son would benefit from seeing his friends and teacher, but no word so far.

This is what I'm apprehensive about. Our children need to be TAUGHT by professional educators.
Assume it's the principal who decides these plans?

jimmytwotimes 2013

eviltwin wrote: »

They will be given assignments on Google classroom - spellings, Irish and a maths problem and writing task every day. No mention of pre recorded videos or check ins or anything like that. I’ve emailed asking if a weekly zoom call could be organised, I know my son would benefit from seeing his friends and teacher, but no word so far.

If you're looking for social interaction. Get on to some of the other parents and organise a group call on any of the available platforms. That's what a group of parents did in my daughters class the last lockdown.

Teacher can handle the education side of things i wud hope

Stateofyou

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

If you're looking for social interaction. Get on to some of the other parents and organise a group call on any of the available platforms. That's what a group of parents did in my daughters class the last lockdown.

Teacher can handle the education side of things i wud hope

My kids love their teachers, one in particular is very close to hers. It would be a shame to not keep a connection there at all. I think she would actually be quite upset about it.

Endintheclowns

Triangle wrote: »

I feel that the next ps pay increase should be balanced in favor of the sectors that have positively helped during the pandemic I. E. HSE front line, gardai and army (I'm sure there's others out there too)
But the fact that they take on new tasks and risks without complaint should be applauded and rewarded.

Teachers have been working in small rooms with 30 other people from different households for months now. They've played their part but alas that is now too dangerous. They've also taken on new tasks and risks without complaint btw.

There is literally no other profession in the country where 30 people are put in such a small confined space for hours on end in the middle of a pandemic.

KrustyUCC

hotmail.com wrote: »

Joe Duffy talking about the education for special needs children.

Will all fall on deaf ears unfortunately

Inviere

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think something will have to be done for special needs kids. The rest of us will cope, perfectly well or badly, but we'll cope. I just caugh a bit there on Newstalk where a mother was talking about her son. He's awake night and day and spends the day lying on the floor kicking it. I only caught a small bit but that would break your heart. And there's far worse than that. Clearly those families need support somehow.

Those families do need support. However, they've needed support for a LONG time & have only got scraps here & there. Covid & lockdowns are only highlighting issues that the media have turned a blind eye to, which have been going on for decades in this country. Sure, many of the students with additional needs have school as a huge piece of their life structure....without it, and without knowing when it'll return, makes life uncertain and confusing. This can manifest in behaviours that put families under enormous pressure.

I'm not sure allowing these students to return to school yet though is the wisest course of action. Schools, despite the political spin, and not immune to covid. Many of the students who attend these schools have significant health concerns, and a dose of Covid in such a school would do untold damage. Yes there are bubbles and pods, but these bubbles & pods only exist at the school door....lest we forget there are bus contractors bringing a LOT of these students to school and home in small/medium sized converted vans too.

Staff and their own families are at serious risk of contracting/spreading Covid too, by being in proximity to other staff & students. Despite what the media portrayal of a special needs school is, it is DEFINITELY not a regulated environment. Many of the students attending are not expected or able to wear masks for any length of time, many are being sent into schools with coughs, colds, sore throats, temperatures (despite attempts to mask this with Calpol etc, which wears off after a few hours and several students develop mysterious temperatures within a short time of each other), many won't understand the vital importance of social distancing, hand hygiene, etc. Despite best efforts of staff and bus escorts, there's only so much you can do with sanitiser and regular washing/cleaning. Some students also exhibit behaviors like spitting too, and at a time like this, it's completely unrealistic to expect staff to try to maintain safety using prayers and PPE. This can happen on buses also, so you've droplets continuously circulating the bus.

It's a tremendously difficult situation for all involved, and my heart goes out to them. Do not be fooled by media portrayals of special schools being safe though. They're absolutely not, and anyone pushing for SEN students to be back as normal, are completely missing the mark in terms of their health and safety....it's by far the lesser of two evils here to keep them out of school.

These students need safe, reliable, regular, and effective support that can be delivered in a safe manner. Throwing 10-15 students together for ~6 hours a day on buses/vans and shared areas (with zero social distancing, and NO masks) and hoping that they don't contract or indeed spread this virus is beyond my understanding. It really seems like some people have no idea of the real dangers to these students, nor a single iota of what daily school life looks like for them.

lulublue22

Inviere wrote: »

Those families do need support. However, they've needed support for a LONG time & have only got scraps here & there. Covid & lockdowns are only highlighting issues that the media have turned a blind eye to, which have been going on for decades in this country. Sure, many of the students with additional needs have school as a huge piece of their life structure....without it, and without knowing when it'll return, makes life uncertain and confusing. This can manifest in behaviours that put families under enormous pressure.

I'm not sure allowing these students to return to school yet though is the wisest course of action. Schools, despite the political spin, and not immune to covid. Many of the students who attend these schools have significant health concerns, and a dose of Covid in such a school would do untold damage. Yes there are bubbles and pods, but these bubbles & pods only exist at the school door....lest we forget there are bus contractors bringing a LOT of these students to school and home in small/medium sized converted vans too.

Staff and their own families are at serious risk of contracting/spreading Covid too, by being in proximity to other staff & students. Despite what the media portrayal of a special needs school is, it is DEFINITELY not a regulated environment. Many of the students attending are not expected or able to wear masks for any length of time, many are being sent into schools with coughs, colds, sore throats, temperatures (despite attempts to mask this with Calpol etc, which wears off after a few hours and several students develop mysterious temperatures within a short time of each other), many won't understand the vital importance of social distancing, hand hygiene, etc. Despite best efforts of staff and bus escorts, there's only so much you can do with sanitiser and regular washing/cleaning. Some students also exhibit behaviors like spitting too, and at a time like this, it's completely unrealistic to expect staff to try to maintain safety using prayers and PPE. This can happen on buses also, so you've droplets continuously circulating the bus.

It's a tremendously difficult situation for all involved, and my heart goes out to them. Do not be fooled by media portrayals of special schools being safe though. They're absolutely not, and anyone pushing for SEN students to be back as normal, are completely missing the mark in terms of their health and safety....it's by far the lesser of two evils here.

These students need safe, reliable, regular, and effective support that can be delivered in a safe manner. Throwing 10-15 students together for ~6 hours a day on buses/vans and shared areas (with zero social distancing, and NO masks) and hoping that they don't contract or indeed spread this virus is beyond my understanding. It really seems like some people have no idea of the real dangers to these students, nor a single iota of what daily school life looks like for them.

excellent post - the whole area of special needs has been woefully underfunded and ignored by successive governments over decades. Any gains in the area of special needs has been extremely piecemeal , haphazard and hard fought for by those at the coal face.

Inviere

lulublue22 wrote: »

excellent post - the whole area of special needs has been woefully underfunded and ignored by successive governments over decades. Any gains in the area of special needs has been extremely piecemeal , haphazard and hard fought for by those at the coal face.

Couldn't agree more. It's why I find the sudden concern as almost nauseating. There are SEN schools out there held together by blu-tak, cellotape, and the sheer good will of those who work inside them to provide the students with all the respect and dignity they deserve. Unfortunately, I really can't say the same for the Department of Education, and even groups like TUSLA. Successive governments have been nothing short of outrageous, in their neglect of this forgotten 'sector' of education.

Forgive me, but it almost comes across as fashionable, the sudden interest in SEN. These families and students have been neglected by governments LONG before anybody heard of Covid-19....and they'll be neglected LONG after Covid-19 has left us.

Schools are NOT safe for these poor kids to be in, they can't be...the Department of Education just wants the school doors open, it ticks a very public box, and they all get to feel great about themselves. If Norma Foley ever set foot inside a Special School, I'd be very surprised.

BonsaiKitten

Stateofyou wrote: »

My kids love their teachers, one in particular is very close to hers. It would be a shame to not keep a connection there at all. I think she would actually be quite upset about it.

This is something I really noticed in my class during the last school closure. I taught live every day and we'd take a good few breaks (I was doing small groups mainly so was helpful to have time to swap them in and out). So many kids would turn up early for the sign in times or hang out in the Zoom until the last possible minute so that they could see me and their classmates.

I'm sorry to read what's happening at your school eviltwin. I hope they step their game up because that sounds like such a lack of effort from them.

Teach30

Smacruairi wrote: »

Demand more interaction. Use your class reps if you have them, defo your parent reps on board of management. If the childcare excuse is used ask for prerecorded videos on a medium like edmodo, schoology, or teams/Google classroom.

Please be mindful that teachers home internet may be terrible. Mine is and so limits massively live teaching and uploading long videos. I’ve asked to go into the school building so that I can do some lives. It’s not that I dont want to, I just can’t!

Rural Ireland broadband scheme very poor and I’m not currently in position to sign up for another bill. Last time I used my mobile data and ended up with a bill for over €280 for two weeks.

Fingers crossed the school caretaker will allow access to school for me.

lulublue22

Inviere wrote: »

Couldn't agree more. It's why I find the sudden concern as almost nauseating. There are SEN schools out there held together by blu-tak, cellotape, and the sheer good will of those who work inside them to provide the students with all the respect and dignity they deserve. Unfortunately, I really can't say the same for the Department of Education, and even groups like TUSLA. Successive governments have been nothing short of outrageous, in their neglect of this forgotten 'sector' of education.

Forgive me, but it almost comes across as fashionable, the sudden interest in SEN. These families and students have been neglected by governments LONG before anybody heard of Covid-19....and they'll be neglected LONG after Covid-19 has left us.

Schools are NOT safe for these poor kids to be in, they can't be...the Department of Education just wants the school doors open, it ticks a very public box, and they all get to feel great about themselves. If Norma Foley ever set foot inside a Special School, I'd be very surprised.

Having previously worked in the area , given where we are now as a country and the fact that transmission rates in special schools has been higher than other educational settings I can’t understand how in good conscience anyone could stand over them being a safe environment for children or staff. That is not in any way to detract from the needs of the children or families involved.