I think Max Deegan is the cautionary tale of what happens to a young high potential player who sits in the reserves for too long and what player movement should seek to prevent. It's too late for Max Deegan himself, he ruined his career by staying too long at a team with too much competition but had he moved at 23 who knows where he'd be now.
Frawley isn't a guy who has struggled to get minutes - when he's been healthy he's almost always been in the Leinster 23. He missed the bulk of last season with injuries, but has already racked up 753 minutes so far this season for Leinster (out of a maximum 880). He's played in 11 games, starting 8 of them.
This notion that he isn't getting enough gametime or exposure just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
He hasn't managed to push past the guys ahead of him up to now, either at 10, 12 or 15, has just been because they're better players at this point in time, but that changes.
If he really sees himself as a 10 and that's the position he wants to go for then he should consider moving this summer, but to Ulster or Connacht, but other than that, he's developing just fine where he is.
i think a player should have ambtions for themselves to be playing in the big games and should back themselves to push on.
also should be realistic about what their place in the depth chart is and take coaches chat at contract time with a pinch of salt.
Take Frawley as an example, hes not in the conversation for outhalf, he's 3rd choice at best, hes 2nd/3rd choice 12 with Henshaw & Osbourne and hes 2nd choice 15 with Keenan.
His way into the 23 is as utility player on the bench but hes always at risk of the next player coming through pushing him further down the chart.
For me he should def be looking to move, Munster possibly but if he wants to be an outhalf he'd be 2nd to Crowley, he'll probably be 1st choice 12 when Nankivell leaves. I think he should be looking at Ulster and thinking he can be 1st choice outhalf there ahead of Burns or Flannery. His utility shouldnt be as required there either
The ideal situation for a successful Ulster and Munster are that all or mostly all of the core elite players are from their province, and then the squad is filled out with surplus Leinster and IQ players from abroad, plus 2/3/4 NIQs. That to me is a viable model.
Connacht will obviously have more Leinster players but honestly their homegrown talent is noticeably ticking up as well.
So, yea i hate the idea of forcing guys to move.
Agree with this. You mention the fans part here but I see it as being far too understated in the overall conversation here.
Part of the benefit of the current approach is that the core of each province is being developed with local lads that the fans can connect with. These players grow up as fans of the team, coming through local schools and clubs - some fans know them, their friends, or family or played with or against them. It is clear that in most cases trophy wins mean more to the local player.
That is not to say that imports, either foreign or from other provinces, cant become fan favourites or care for the team but a local kid coming through to be a star just hits different for all involved.
It is pretty unique within rugby and even broader professional sport to have such high proportion of players fans can associate with like this and it is a differentiator. Diluting that with a draft system for minimal, if any, benefit is killing a goose that lays the golden eggs from a fan perspective, that is before even getting into all the potential issues from a player perspective, that have been discussed here already in more detail.
This has been discussed in depth, but we rotated more in the warm ups than other teams without ever playing our real first team. Sexton's ban partly played into this I am sure. But given how the fixtures fell it was viewed as the best way to build up to the QF.
It was clearly a deliberate decision, and not an action forced by a lack of depth. Farrell went from capping more players than any other coach in the world cup cycle to focusing on his core group in the final year. Pretty much the only position I Would question this at is 7, otherwise it wasn't the cause of our problems.
What’s a small group tho’. We had less rotation than anyone else among the top teams. Why would we choose a tactic that risks running out of steam when successful teams don’t do that? I agree w Palmerston that with a relatively small playing pool we are always challenged in the depth table but that’s different to saying we are choosing to forgo depth in favour of a tighter frontline group with maximum experience. That’s harder to believe.
@[Deleted User] the advantage would be to have fewer players at Leinster (maybe elsewhere, wingers at Ulster occasionally) who aren’t getting meaningful game time in their early 20s. Maybe that makes a difference to their development, maybe it doesn’t. I don’t think it’s in conflict with the idea of resourcing the grassroots/development components.
This, it was a tactical decision for years to lean on cohesion and keep the trusted group small.
My arguments against haven't been what you've described as cultural - it's just I don't feel you've outlined any material positives for a relatively material change in process.
We're always going to be severely challenged at the very top table internationally on depth - it's a function of being such a small country. France underperformed to an even greater extent when you consider the enormous playing resources they had at their disposal, so I'm not convinced ripping up the way we do things is going to change things here dramatically.
I've said it multiple times on here - but ultimately we have to keep investing in expanding our underage player development pathways. We're already as reliant as we can ever be on the Blackrock / Michaels route. The solutions to improving Ireland aren't weakening that pathway or spreading it more thinly across all four provinces, it's finding ways to replicate what those schools are doing in more parts of the country.
We absolutely had a deep enough squad to rotate at the WC, it was a tactical decision not to do so.
Like almost everything written here it’s theoretical. Heads up - we are just fans **** talking on the internet. The name of the thread should give away why I’m outlining that the IRFU, if it wanted, could move players around at will because it is the body that underwrites contracts. Should they move players around more than they do and systematise it? I’m not convinced it would make a great deal of difference. In the case of certain players, yes, they probably would have been better off at a different province earlier in their careers. I’ve named Penny as one case, I’m sure there are others. There are counter examples that show the system is fairly well functioning like Conway. For me the most compelling argument for a systematic approach is the fact that we didn’t have a deep enough squad to rotate at the WC, even though we had very few players benched through injury. I imagine that is areal issue for the IRFU brains trust. It certainly should be.
Most of the arguments against are cultural, that’s not how we do things. Hmmm.
A South African playing in France could feasibly support a family back home on the wages. An Irish player couldn't. There's so many players with only 4/5 real pro clubs that they need to get out as well. Most know they'll never be capped and the top players aren't prevented from playing for the Springboks so there are several vital differences from Irish players.
There are tons of Saffers playing in France and England. It'd be interesting to see the age profiles.
That's all true. But financially a young Lad moving to another province would be on buttons. If a player went abroad it would surely be for financial reasons. South Africans don't seem to mind moving.
You'll be working more in France though.
And if you're a 20-year-old you're basically putting your studies on hold indefinitely and that's likely to cost you dearly when you're older. If you can handle moving to a new country, switching universities and studying in French on top of a full-time pro contract in the lower leagues, fair play to you.
If you're early-mid 20s you're writing off your international career. If you're not good enough for international rugby you may not be good enough to get a non-JIFF place on a French team's roster. You're probably looking at ProD2 at best.
If you're late 20s, early 30s you're likely to have a partner and maybe children to consider and if they can't/won't move to France it complicates things.
It's not extremely simple but there are some players for whom it's an attractive option. Joey Carbery is maybe one of those as his Ireland career looks dead, he's nearly finished his Masters, his first child isn't born yet and as an ex-international (which he would be if he moved abroad) could start for a mid-table Top14 club if he stays fit.
There is a notion that the provinces need to be balanced by the IRFU, therefore move some of Leinster's better prospects across the country. I disagree with this but I think that's the purpose. I think all 4 provinces are reasonably strong as is and I'd say the IRFU agree.
Yeah, sure, no one is denying the IRFU could, of course, force the structure you're outlining onto the system and provinces. But maybe you should ask yourself why they haven't?
You're not really outlining at all what the proposed benefits would be of your supposed structure, while you appear to be acknowledging some obvious weaknesses (when you acknowledge some players will say "f** this" and head to England etc).
Young players who are talented enough are already getting good levels of gametime. Leinster probably give more gametime to young players than any of the four provinces over the past 8-10 years.
So what's the actual point or purpose of your needlessly disruptive proposal?
You can tell people to get a grip but if you don't think that such a system would be incredibly damaging both on a relationship level as well as an operational level to Irish rugby very quickly, I think you'd want to look closer to home.
This isn't a Leinster thing. Munster have a great crop of locks coming through in the last few years. Under this approach, a likely move would be to tell Evan O'Connell he's only being offered a contract in Belfast. It's a blueprint for irreparably damaging the working relationship between players and the IRFU as well as infuriating fans. Sure, it would work in a number of cases. But we'd also see an unprecedented number of players lost to Irish rugby. Ulster, in particular, would get absolutely shafted if they had a productive crop coming through given they are already fighting an exodus every year of young people moving to Britain. Their players would happily move across the water rather than to Limerick or Galway.
I've no doubt that approach was made previously (Irish rugby would be fairly silly not to). But he's 34 in a few months and now playing in Japan for his pension. I'd imagine that's where his mind is at and concerned with feathering his nest. Would still be worth an approach for a 1 year deal to give them some breathing space.
I'd go where the money is. Simple as that. I'd rather go to France for more money than move to another province for the same wage.
This is near hysterical. "Forcing kids to move away from their families"..."lose thousands of young players".."cripple the entire system"... the people we are talking about are 20 year olds or older, they are pro athletes ffs. You think olympic swimmers or track and field athletes are crying about moving away from their families, or soccer players who go to England at 16? Get a grip. I suspect there is some sort of short circuit for some posters when it comes to rugby and Dublin schools/Leinster. When I mentioned human rights earlier I wasn't kidding. Some posters feel like pushing players between provinces for the sake of the teams is abusive.
You mean like all the current ex Leinster schools players who are already playing for provinces that are not Leinster?
If Frawley has re-signed then could easily see both Harry Byrne and Tector move on in the summer. Wouldn’t be surprised if there was a real shake up at 10 next season leaving something like:
Leinster: Ross Byrne, Frawley, Prendergast
Munster: Crowley, Hanrahan, Butler
Ulster: Harry Byrne, Flannery, Burns
Connacht: Carty, Tector, West / Naughton
We'll have to agree to disagree. Yes its possible the rugby would lose players, it already does for lots of reasons some of which could be avoided. But if that became the path to pro rugby kids would still go for it. It is the way of pro sport the world over and the wheel keeps turning. The IRFU would be telling our best prospects, 'hey, here's a pro contract with a path way to a great career and the prospect of playing for your country'. You seem to think moving a hundred miles down the road is some sort of punishment, these are professional sporting contracts, moving to a different town for your job is absolutely normal. If a player sulks off because he has to move to play I'm not sure he's cut out for pro rugby to begin with and I'm absolutely certain that is how selectors and coaches would see it.
Provinces do what they are told, end of story. IRFU writes the cheques. And professional players actually are commodities in the way employees are to any firm. If you ask the question are they or aren't they then the answer is yes, they are employees into whom very large investments are made. In any sports team culture is very important but its also a cut throat business, if you aren't cutting it you're gone, if you get a serious injury you are finished, etc. Teams will support players per the investment they've made but they won't think twice about not renewing contracts, its business. Players get dropped, parked, overlooked. Let's not kid ourselves that this is family or that the fan vision of these teams is fully accurate. It's kill or be killed and the executives and coaches who don't make the tough calls get killed too (except maybe the suits outside the coaching staff in Munster 😉).
It would not be workable and would fall apart very, very quickly. It would require the IRFU to be willing to let multiple players fall out of the system completely. If the likes of Edogbo said "nah, I don't want to move to Belfast", do you think we are really better off letting him leave Irish rugby - the pushback on this would be enormous. It would not survive the first few cases of players rejecting it.
I would add that players leaving the academy are often in the middle of their university studies and can not just move on a whim.
It's not a "human rights" thing, its just being a pretty **** employer to your employees with the least leverage who may not take particularly kindly to it. If you start telling our best prospects at 20 years old "you're moving to Galway or you're not playing professional rugby in Ireland" then it is not going to create the kind of environment where these players will thrive and it won't exactly engender much loyalty. They are not commodities to be passed around as the IRFU sees fit.
There is nothing stopping a province offering a contract offer to an academy player from another province and it has happened in the past.
The IRFU are already responsible for the academy system, the academies in the provinces are IRFU staff.
Ireland had been number 1 in the World for the longest time a NH team was, they won a Grand Slam, they have been successful for the last 10 years more than ever before.
Forcing kids to move away from home/family etc would be the worst decision ever for the IRFU to do. They would ruin their reputation, the reputation of rugby in Ireland and lose thousands of young players to the sport if they implemented that.
Long term you would cripple the entire system of rugby in Ireland. Somehow I doubt anyone in the IRFU or any club would support such a proposal
I think you are misunderstanding what Im saying. I am agnostic on the whole thing frankly, as Palmerston pointed out its not as if there is a batch of payers in Leinster who might/would be getting more top end game time elsewhere and Im not sure the issue is with younger players. To me its more about guys like Penny who has a lot of promise but has not had any great run of top end games (this season may be his breakthrough tho), and there are a few others in the same boat, but again I'm not sure they'd be much better off at another province. And if players in their mid 20s are moving abroad as they fall down the pecking order at Leinster then maybe it would be better if some off those guys had gone abroad earlier in the careers where they might have had better development opportunities. As in the case of Beirne (and maybe Jaegar) that might be better for team Ireland in the long run. On the question of maximising resources I think there is a question there. The failure to advance in this years World Cup suggests to me that we are missing a trick somewhere along the line. The lack of squad rotation in the competition begs the question about why we don't have a bigger squad of players who are at the requisite level to compete at a world level.
What's interesting to me is the principle that the IRFU could, if they chose, move players around at will and decide early on that while Leinster schools produce the lions share of players it doesn't/shouldn't follow that they are by default Leinster players.
But don’t you think our current system maximizes resources more than the one you propose?
It wouldn't be popular, but my point is that the IRFU could do it and it could become the template for player development. Someone earlier said it wouldn't be workable. It would be workable because the IRFU holds all the cards. We've had this argument on here many times. Players can't be forced to do anything, but they can be presented with options from which they have to choose. Going back to your club, playing GAA or going to England would be options. Picking your favourite province or deciding you only want to live in Dublin to be near your girlfriend and playing pro rugby may not be options. The schools argument is similar, Belfast, Galway and Limerick have excellent universities and higher ed options. And on the England/Wales/France thing, having young players cut their teeth abroad is not the end of the world. It worked out well for Tommy Bowe and Beirne, perhaps Jaegar too. People seem to regard this as a human rights thing, but that's not the IRFU remit, theirs is to maximise resources to produce success for provinces and the Irish team while developing the game.
You can’t make guys making 8-10k a year and have to make decisions about school just go wherever.
At the very least say goodbye to anyone who has the option to play high level GAA.
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