The play should want to push themselves on.
The likes of Deegan, Frawley, Penny etc should be looking at getting themselves into Cat 1 game time in the European Cup for someone rather than racking up minutes playing backwater URC games
30 caps is a very decent career, particularly compared to the amateur era when anyone on 30 caps would have been regarded as a veteran. By way of example, Mick Doyle was a celebrated Leinster/Ireland/Lions player who went on to coach Leinster and Ireland. He had 20 caps.
Mod: For the last time, stop derailing threads with criticisms of Frank Murphy.
Nope, it was due to Corkman and ex-Munster player Frank Murphy abdicating his responsibility to ref the province he's from and used to play for.
That 30 caps includes 22 appearances and 16 starts against Tier 1 teams. I'd suggest it'd be a lot more but for injury. But regardless, that seems like a reasonably meaningful Test career to me.
Loads of players get caps these days thatcwould never be got in the olden days, due to substitutions and games against lower tier - still caps but certainly not meaningful ones.
Even that ERC "triumph" was only due to Leinster playing the second team as they were prioritising a different competition
I agree and apologies for quoting you to reiterate my point which was directed at someone else.
Plenty of ifs and maybes, but I'm willing to give the chap to the end of his career for him to determine if he's making the right choices currently
To be clear, I'm not making the argument that he ruined his career. I understand why Deegan would want to stay. Equally, there are arguments for why he could have left. And if he did decide to leave, I don't think it would appreciably / materially affect Leinster, and could be / have been more beneficial for him.
That's the only point I'm trying to make.
That's honestly not my memory at all. He didn't make his international debut until 2017, so thinking he was destined to make the wing spit in Ireland his own in 2013 doesn't seem to line up at all to me.
Agreed on 2019 tho. And Farrell seemed to be a fan too, dropping Earls for him in his initial squad back in 2020. It's a shame it all ended so abruptly for him.
The poster said that Murphy didn't feature again at Test level after his move to Ulster. This is true, but that was due to injury,rather than the fact that he was at Ulster. It was a bit of context.
Not saying it is but at the end of 2013 he seemed destined to make the wing spot in Ireland his own with retirements like Shaggy etc. Plus Joe was a huge fan.
From recollection and memory is poor I admit his form dropped in the next few years after the move which would tie into the no caps and picked up later in his career. Still with issues around injuries
In 2019 WC he was by far one of the best Irish players
You keep making my point for me.
If you're saying they aren't comparable it is only because Ryan not moving is a far worse case of a career being stifled by not moving than Deegan looks to be.
Please! No logic! It's unbecoming!
30 caps is hardly something to be sniffed at. But for injury, I daresay he'd have had a URC medal and more caps, Farrell seemed to be a fan.
Also this:
When he left Leinster he was the starting winger for Leinster
isn't accurate. He started finals due to injuries elsewhere, he wasn't de facto starting winger.
Is Conway a success? his only medals came at Leinster. He played 42 games with leinster From Feb 2010 to May 2013. For the next 10 years he managed just 150 caps and only 30 international when he finally got into the squad in 2017. When he left Leinster he was the starting winger for Leinster, looked like he was ready to jump into the international team and ended up not getting capped for 4 years.
I'm not sure how much of that was down to injury but certainly not a Tadgh Beirne etc
Absolutely unlikely, as he has better players ahead of him.
Just as it would be similarly unlikely should he be playing with either of the other 3 provinces.
However that is not a reason to point to his career so far in Leinster as "ruined" as a particular poster here did.
I feel it came from a position of wanting their province to be stronger rather than any real critique of deegans career to date.
...and after that Ryan's pathway into the Ireland squad was significantly easier than Deegan's currently is.
Do you think Deegan is likely to get remotely close to 47 caps?
Again as I posted Ireland has been very succesfull in the last few years, most countries envy our system
Why should we change it? especially when you consider the people demanding it gets changed is not for the good of Ireland, but for the good of their province. Now maybe this is not the case here but it seems like it.
One of the huge plus's of the Ireland system is young player can stay at home and work in the system right up to international level which means a higher rate of success. Sending kids over to England when 16, has it really worked? the only reason this is done is because the IRFU are a joke and they can't put together a competition that would allow kids to work in Ireland and then move to England when more mature. By the way how is the soccer team getting on.
If you think players won't leave the system because once they turn a certain age they will be told to move and go to XYZ then you are deluded. See what happen when Madigan was told he had to move to Munster? he walked out and was lost to the system. Plenty more players will feel the same. What would happen if Coombes was told he was going to Leinster?
Pushing players from one province to another had nothing to do with the players. That;s the number 1 issue you have.
The OP says it is 'too late' for Deegan despite him already reaching his 100 caps for Leinster a year sooner than Ryan did at Munster.
If anything, pointing at Ryan's Irish caps makes the case even stronger about what he could/should have achieved if he moved in his early 20s when his way was blocked at Munster - he might have more than double those Irish caps.
We don't have evidence yet that Deegan can get to top international level but we do have it for Ryan and he was absolutely held back from getting there sooner by staying at Munster.
It is an inconvenient truth for the case a certain fanbase and media heads that Ryan is probably the best example of a top level Irish player being held back until so deep into their career by a blockage in front of them and them not moving. It is made worse by it being a huge need at other provinces at the same time.
Ryan was lucky in a sense that when he picked up the bulk of his caps there was a shortage of high level locks. You can't say the same about the back row. Deegan doesn't even make the Leinster bench most of the time
Yep, and I don't see the same happening with Deegan.
He still only had a smattering of them prior to 2010 / 2011, when he was c. 27 years of age. The vast bulk of his caps came after that point.
Would you not consider him a journeyman as it is?
He is essentially, if the Leo is taking the game seriously Deegan is on the bench at best (assuming everyones fit) We can all name the starting back row if Cullen both respects the opponent and considers it a must win game Deegan won't be in it.
He's a journeyman just at Leinster. He hasn't ruined his career by any means, but maybe limited it a bit. Leinster players have an easier path to Irish caps largely due to Leinster and Ireland have pretty similar game plans and will likely to continue to have for the next cycle as well since Goodman is going to the Irish set up.
He probably could have made more money in France, he might have more HC's if he moved away from Leinster.
Munster probably have the better track record of success with Leinster players like Conway, Jones and Loughman. Carbery was very unfortunate the way 2019 went for him which was more a set of Ireland decisions more than anything provincial.
I don't think they're really comparable.
Donnacha Ryan has 47 Ireland caps. I don't think Deegan is likely to get anywhere close to that, tbh.
Plenty of 'cautionary tales' out there for any decision a player could make. There are very good arguments that the 3 highest profile players that made the direct move from Leinster to Munster are 'cautionary tales' why players shouldn't consider it - saw a joke about Leo Cullen sticking on his office wall the article of Carbury now moving abroad.
Donnacha Ryan is another player who one could see as a cautionary tale, in the same way as you're saying Deegan might be. He was approaching 30 before he got into the starting team for big games, having been blocked by POC, DOC, MOD but never moving until later in his career. If he'd moved to Leinster in his early 20s he could have been a cornerstone of that incredibly successful period, been one of Ireland's most decorated players at club level, have many more Irish caps, and earned a hell of a lot more money.
It is impossible to know what the 'right' decision is for a player at a given point in time.
Tbh, don't really know if Murphy's status changed much or you could say it worked for him at Ulster any more than it did at Leinster in an international context. His last game for Leinster was starting and winning a Euro cup final. He was in-and-out of Ireland squads/teams before leaving and after leaving Leinster. I don't really know if being at Ulster boosted his chances of going to that RWC any more than it would have if he'd stayed put.
In fact his career tailed off significantly at Ulster, he dropped totally off the radar, he's still only 32.
Jordi Murphy was called into the 2019 RWC squad whilst at Ulster, but got injured. So it worked for him, he just had a poorly timed injury.
If he wants a "carrot", maybe look at Timoney - slightly older, much less feted, a much less star-strewn rise through the ranks, didn't get offered an Academy place at Leinster and now has an Ireland cap more than Deegan?
dial down the hyperbole there....
"ruined his career" is a completely ridiculous thing to say about a 27 year old.
Deegan is a very valuable member of Leinster squad. Last season he played every single minute of the last 8 rounds of the URC, including QF and SF. He was also involved in ireland training camps and had an 'off the bench' test appearance against Fiji. If thats "ruining your career" then we are all fcuked!
taking your hypothetical "he should have moved" opinion, he could also have had a 'JJ Hanrahan' career where he was a great prospect at u20s level but had very much a "never met his potential" career being a journeyman and never being the stone cold first choice in his position.
Deegan still has time, and im sure a test career is still forefront in his mind. Hes already found out that not being 1st choice at leinster is not a hindrance to getting into an ireland squad, and as i said, only being 27 does not mean his career is over. He has seen the likes of Jordi Murphy move province for more gametime yet not feature at test level, so where's the carrot?
So far he has 4 celtic league medals and an HC medal in his cabinet. Many a better player has gone through their career with very little to show for it.
That could easily go the other way though especially for Ireland. It is a risky path to ‘specialize’ as a utility which he is kind of doing from a national pov.
also going on about moving away from their family like we're sending them to a different continent, the further away they'd be is two or three hours. It's Ireland not America or France
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://wd.vanillicon.com/v2/dd23f423fe14831a2a84d9f17c825ecc.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://wb.vanillicon.com/v2/bc2fc647ead03112f34ab15102cdc6cb.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://we.vanillicon.com/v2/e7ef1946e92d84157dc464ad6c3ddaab.svg)