Formula 1 2021 - General Discussion Thread (Read 1st post rules)

duploelabs

muckwarrior wrote: »

Vettel ran into another car and blamed the other driver. If anything, you could say he's back on form :pac:

Depending on who had the racing line can dictate who was at fault, so potentially the car in front was in the wrong

LollipopJimmy

duploelabs wrote: »

Depending on who had the racing line can dictate who was at fault, so potentially the car in front was in the wrong

I wasn't writing him off, merely pointing out that Hulk being officially signed adds more pressure. However, Vettel was 100% to blame in that incident

El_Duderino 09

barryribs wrote: »

I'd like to give the four time world champion, who has just joined a new team, who completed the fewest laps testing, till mid season before we write him off.

I wouldn’t write him off at all. But you can fairly describe his current and recent form as very poor. If he always drove like this, he wouldn’t have been a world champion.

El_Duderino 09

duploelabs wrote: »

Depending on who had the racing line can dictate who was at fault, so potentially the car in front was in the wrong

Potentially. But nobody is seriously suggesting it was Ocon’s fault. I saw a poster who said it on the evening the race, but they haven’t tried to back up that position since then.

barryribs

Here's something I just found out about. When Flavio bought the Ligier team in 94, he gave one Michael Schumacher a run in the Ligier to see what he thought of the power unit for 95.

LollipopJimmy

barryribs wrote: »

Here's something I just found out about. When Flavio bought the Ligier team in 94, he gave one Michael Schumacher a run in the Ligier to see what he thought of the power unit for 95.


https://i2.wp.com/essaar.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/PBDiLG8.jpg?fit=1024%2C673

God be with the days when teams could test as much as they wanted and even had full test teams

Frank Bullitt

barryribs wrote: »

Here's something I just found out about. When Flavio bought the Ligier team in 94, he gave one Michael Schumacher a run in the Ligier to see what he thought of the power unit for 95.

He tested a Sauber when he was with Ferrari as well.

mickdw

Its abit a of a throw of the dice from the hulk.
Gamble on vettel walking at end of an unsuccessful season and jumping into the race seat.

El_Duderino 09

mickdw wrote: »

Its abit a of a throw of the dice from the hulk.
Gamble on vettel walking at end of an unsuccessful season and jumping into the race seat.

Yeah he’ll be 34 later this year so that is probably his last year with a serious chance of getting a drive again. Drivers like Gasley, Bottas, Perez might be coming available in then next couple of years. They would probably all get drives ahead of a 35 year old hulk.

I think anyone with a heart would like to see him get a decent car and be competitive.

Adamocovic

I can’t see Vettel leaving unless things go Ferrari bad this year.

Surely if he has an enjoyable win he will be eager to race next year at a more level playing field. Just to test it out and see if he still has it.

If he has more weekends like his last outing I wouldn’t blame him from just riding off to the sunset.

El_Duderino 09

Adamocovic wrote: »

I can’t see Vettel leaving unless things go Ferrari bad this year.

Surely if he has an enjoyable win he will be eager to race next year at a more level playing field. Just to test it out and see if he still has it.

If he has more weekends like his last outing I wouldn’t blame him from just riding off to the sunset.

True enough. I wonder about the team dynamics at AM. We know that everyone seemed to assume the Vettel’s treatment at Ferrari caused him to perform poorly. But we also know that Stroll was given preferential treatment over Perez last year (though nobody presumed that should lead to Perez performing similarly poorly to Vettel).

So if AM don’t treat Vettel as their No.1 will that also be a reason for Vettel to perform poorly? If Stroll gets an upgrade ahead of Perez I’d expect Perez to fight tooth an nail to overcome the disadvantage. If Stroll gets an upgrade over Vettel I’d expect the toys to fly out of the pram and lots of people to excuse any poor performance by Vettel

Jordan 199

I read that Ferrari gave Leclerc his race winning 2019 SF90 as a gift to him :cool:

eljono

Jordan 199 wrote: »

I read that Ferrari gave Leclerc his race winning 2019 SF90 as a gift to him :cool:

He posted a pic on his Insta of the car parked in his home garage, very cool!

duploelabs

Jordan 199 wrote: »

I read that Ferrari gave Leclerc his race winning 2019 SF90 as a gift to him :cool:

Beats an all4One voucher from your boss I guess

Jordan 199

duploelabs wrote: »

Beats an all4One voucher from your boss I guess

AMKC

eljono wrote: »

He posted a pic on his Insta of the car parked in his home garage, very cool!

Do Share for us not on Insta.

pjohnson

Hulk was long linked to them before testing even began.

The only stop was when Mercedes/Toto were flirting with signing him as reserve in order to leave Vandoorne/DeVries at their FE Team.

quokula

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

True enough. I wonder about the team dynamics at AM. We know that everyone seemed to assume the Vettel’s treatment at Ferrari caused him to perform poorly. But we also know that Stroll was given preferential treatment over Perez last year (though nobody presumed that should lead to Perez performing similarly poorly to Vettel).

So if AM don’t treat Vettel as their No.1 will that also be a reason for Vettel to perform poorly? If Stroll gets an upgrade ahead of Perez I’d expect Perez to fight tooth an nail to overcome the disadvantage. If Stroll gets an upgrade over Vettel I’d expect the toys to fly out of the pram and lots of people to excuse any poor performance by Vettel

Vettel has never had number 1 treatment at any team in his career, and has never expected it. That's very different to the treatment he got at Ferrari after Binotto became team principal, where among other things they publicly lied about contract negotiations, and tried to control everything he said to the media.

duploelabs

quokula wrote: »

Vettel has never had number 1 treatment at any team in his career, and has never expected it. That's very different to the treatment he got at Ferrari after Binotto became team principal, where among other things they publicly lied about contract negotiations, and tried to control everything he said to the media.

Except for when he won 4 consecutive wdc with red bull!

El_Duderino 09

quokula wrote: »

Vettel has never had number 1 treatment at any team in his career, and has never expected it. That's very different to the treatment he got at Ferrari after Binotto became team principal, where among other things they publicly lied about contract negotiations, and tried to control everything he said to the media.

Ah, people will dress it up any way they want. They will suggest Webber was an equal even though he considered himself to be treated as no.2.

But the contract negotiations is a complete red herring. Ferrari said he would need to take a massive pay cut to get a new contract. He refused and Ferrari considered that the contract negotiations had ended but Vettel says they never even begun.

The whole of the last few years is all a bit like that, making a narrative to explain away the embarrassment Vettel must have felt at being outperformed by a relative rookie on about 5% of his pay.

Perez was treated similarly poorly at RP and he was actually treated as the no.2. But nobody expects him to perform poorly as a result. He had a solid season while being treated as a no.2 and being dropped after beating his teammate. Vettel was told he’d need to take a pay cut after losing to his teammate and he refused.

At what point does the narrative around Vettel's last few seasons become about something other than explaining away his underperformance?

AMKC

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah, people will dress it up any way they want. They will suggest Webber was an equal even though he considered himself to be treated as no.2.

But the contract negotiations is a complete red herring. Ferrari said he would need to take a massive pay cut to get a new contract. He refused and Ferrari considered that the contract negotiations had ended but Vettel says they never even begun.

The whole of the last few years is all a bit like that, making a narrator to explain away the embarrassment Vettel must have felt at being outperformed by a relative rookie on about 5% of his pay.

Perez was treated similarly poorly at RP and he was actually treated as the no.2. But nobody expects him to perform poorly as a result. He had a solid season while being treated as a no.2 and being dropped after beating his teammate. Vettel was told he’d need to take a pay cut after losing to his teammate and he refused.

Then he had to take a pay cut when he moved ho Aston Martin anyway but the relationship at Ferrari was obviously toxic(why else would he have sold all the Ferraris he had collected) and he needed to go somewhere new.
Hopefully he can find his old self and get his mind back in a good frame of mind again or this could be his last season in F1 if Stroll beats him which would be frankly embarrassing to him and terrible for his career.

El_Duderino 09

AMKC wrote: »

Then he had to take a pay cut when he moved ho Aston Martin anyway but the relationship at Ferrari was obviously toxic(why else would he have sold all the Ferraris he had collected) and he needed to go somewhere new.
Hopefully he can find his old self and get his mind back in a good frame of mind again or this could be his last season in F1 if Stroll beats him which would be frankly embarrassing to him and terrible for his career.

Yeah absolutely. Ferrari was right on the nose and he wasn't worth the money he had been worth previously. The proof was clear for all to see, he was beaten by a relative rookie in only his second season and on a fraction of his wage. He refused the pay cut at Ferrari but accepted it was fair at AM. That can hardly be seen as Ferrari's fault but somehow it's part of the narrative that amounts to "but shur, how could Vettel perform anything other than poorly, considering how he was treated at Ferrari?". They offered him a reduction in pay which he refused (and then took at AM). How is this an example of poor treatment?

Even if stroll is within 20 points of him at the end of the season, it will be embarrassing for Vettel and a big win for Stroll. He needs to really hammer stroll at every opportunity to rescue his reputation for the future.

vectra

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah absolutely. Ferrari was right on the nose and he wasn't worth the money he had been worth previously. The proof was clear for all to see, he was beaten by a relative rookie in only his second season and on a fraction of his wage. He refused the pay cut at Ferrari but accepted it was fair at AM. That can hardly be seen as Ferrari's fault but somehow it's part of the narrative that amounts to "but shur, how could Vettel perform anything other than poorly, considering how he was treated at Ferrari?". They offered him a reduction in pay which he refused (and then took at AM). How is this an example of poor treatment?

Even if stroll is within 20 points of him at the end of the season, it will be embarrassing for Vettel and a big win for Stroll. He needs to really hammer stroll at every opportunity to rescue his reputation for the future.

Where did you see that?

El_Duderino 09

vectra wrote: »

Where did you see that?

It's a year ago. I can't remember the source. It's what Ferrari said

vectra

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's a year ago. I can't remember the source. It's what Ferrari said

But isn't that the complete opposite to what Vettel said?
I'm confused

quokula

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah, people will dress it up any way they want. They will suggest Webber was an equal even though he considered himself to be treated as no.2.

There is zero evidence of this, other than Webber's occasional sour grapes when Vettel beat him. They never, not once, used team orders in Vettel's favour or displayed any kind of favouritism.

The one incident in their five years together where Vettel was given an advantage was that time they brought two new front wings to the British GP (something they always made a point of doing, so neither driver would ever get better hardware than the other), but one of them failed in practice so rather than leaving two drivers with the old spec, they gave the new one to Vettel, given that he was way ahead of his teammate in the championship at the time.

The only other time there were team orders it was actually in Webber's favour, when they asked Vettel to let him win at Malaysia 2013, ending in controversy when Vettel simply had too much pace on track and made the overtake anyway, which he was heavily criticised for by the team, which is a pretty bizarre way of showing favouritism.

barryribs

Theres a good article from the race below on the politics behind the move.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/how-leclerc-swung-ferrari-away-from-vettel/
I think neither party wanted to continue working together, pay cut or otherwise.

El_Duderino 09

vectra wrote: »

But isn't that the complete opposite to what Vettel said?
I'm confused

No. He said they didn't offer him a contract. And they didn't offer him a contract.

They said there would need to be a serious pay cut (which is appropriate) and Vettel refused and that ended the conversation so they didn't go through the charade of offering him a contract

AMKC

quokula wrote: »

There is zero evidence of this, other than Webber's occasional sour grapes when Vettel beat him. They never, not once, used team orders in Vettel's favour or displayed any kind of favouritism.

The one incident in their five years together where Vettel was given an advantage was that time they brought two new front wings to the British GP (something they always made a point of doing, so neither driver would ever get better hardware than the other), but one of them failed in practice so rather than leaving two drivers with the old spec, they gave the new one to Vettel, given that he was way ahead of his teammate in the championship at the time.

The only other time there were team orders it was actually in Webber's favour, when they asked Vettel to let him win at Malaysia 2013, ending in controversy when Vettel simply had too much pace on track and made the overtake anyway, which he was heavily criticised for by the team, which is a pretty bizarre way of showing favouritism.

Malaysia. There is a track I would love to see back on an F1 calendar. Great track with some great races. Terrible that it was dropped.

barryribs

AMKC wrote: »

Malaysia. There is a track I would love to see back on an F1 calendar. Great track with some great races. Terrible that it was dropped.

And always had the possiblity of a tropical storm or two over the course of a weekend. Also had some good elevation changes through the lap. Turns 5 to 8 were amongst the best