Level 5 lockdown essentially failed

Lisa2011

Asking us all to stay home while allowing people into the country is wrong. Suppressing community transmission is pointless unless you have mandatory quarantine in place. I have followed all guidelines and restrictions even over Christmas despite places being open and the longer this lockdown goes on the less likely people will cooperate.

The government are incompetent. Their failure to go outside the EU vaccination supply chain for extra supplies is a disgrace.

I have had discussions with many people and their theory is the government only want to vaccinate the elderly and vulnerable and forget the rest of us.

timmyntc

Deleted User wrote: »

I actually think that was the point of the previous poster.

oops replied to wrong poster

Retr0gamer

Oranage2 wrote: »

If there's another lockdown after this then the government should be disbanded. There should have been a viable plans made after the first lockdown to safely open businesses and keep them open. This lockdown open lockdown open tactic is the most unimaginable tactic from a first world country.

What other plans though? Have you any idea about how to open the country without causing mass deaths because all other countries that aren't a basket case are doing lockdowns. The problem at the moment isn't the lockdown. It works. It's been proven to work. The problem is people breaking the lock down rules. It prolongs things and the only way to make lockdowns more successful is dealing with these breaches.

Andrewf20

The_Brood wrote: »

90% of everything this government, and much of Europe, has done or has failed to do in response to the pandemic has been an absolute and complete total failure.

The worst thing though is that they have the magic wand of 'it's unprecedented times we're following expert advice!' to wipe away any and all responsibility and sweep any and all complaints under the rung. Covid-19 is like Disneyland, a magical kingdom for the politicians because no matter how badly they fail, they will never have to answer for a single thing.

But at the end of the day those most at fault is us the people for A) voting in all these muppets and tolerating them quietly.

But is it the failure of citizens or politicians? Behaviour & interaction of people spreads the virus and people will generally prioritize their own desires over the common good. People will at times break the rules in big and small ways to suit themselves. Its well documented in psychology:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_choice

This is a hugely complex task with no easy solutions. Thankfully we are not like Brazil where the president does nothing and the place is rampant with the virus.

ceadaoin.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

What other plans though? Have you any idea about how to open the country without causing mass deaths because all other countries that aren't a basket case are doing lockdowns. The problem at the moment isn't the lockdown. It works. It's been proven to work. The problem is people breaking the lock down rules. It prolongs things and the only way to make lockdowns more successful is dealing with these breaches.

Yeah if only humans could be more like robots and override hundreds of thousands of years of instinct and behaviour. Then everything would be grand. Problem is it just isn't going to happen for long enough periods. Dont know why people can't accept this. Lockdowns don't really work, sooner or later you're back in the same position of growing cases. But still the health service hasn't been improved as far as I can tell.

AdamD

Retr0gamer wrote: »

What other plans though? Have you any idea about how to open the country without causing mass deaths because all other countries that aren't a basket case are doing lockdowns. The problem at the moment isn't the lockdown. It works. It's been proven to work. The problem is people breaking the lock down rules. It prolongs things and the only way to make lockdowns more successful is dealing with these breaches.

The problem is lockdown without nuance or thought. Lockdown without allowing low risk activities, without allowing people to meet up outdoors. Its not sustainable or sensible (and its also not what other countries are doing...)

punisher5112

Army should have been trained up, still should be and used in care homes, proper cleaning in these and hospitals.

Better staff training too.

Retr0gamer

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Yeah if only humans could be more like robots and override hundreds of thousands of years of instinct and behaviour. Then everything would be grand. Problem is it just isn't going to happen for long enough periods. Dont know why people can't accept this. Lockdowns don't really work, sooner or later you're back in the same position of growing cases. But still the health service hasn't been improved as far as I can tell.

What other alternatives are there? Scientifically it's the best way to deal with it. People will always be selfish and break the rules but accounting for that even it's the best way to go. There are no other alternatives and if we actually followed the rules we would have been out of the lockdown since February.

AdamD wrote: »

The problem is lockdown without nuance or thought. Lockdown without allowing low risk activities, without allowing people to meet up outdoors. Its not sustainable or sensible (and its also not what other countries are doing...)

But we have had lockdowns with nuance. We have had relaxation of the rules. They work when numbers aren't too high. At the moment the numbers are way too high to open up. We are at full lockdown and the numbers are stagnating. What would those numbers look like if we open up for another free for all like at christmas when we had a third of the current numbers?

timmyntc

Retr0gamer wrote: »

What other plans though? Have you any idea about how to open the country without causing mass deaths because all other countries that aren't a basket case are doing lockdowns. The problem at the moment isn't the lockdown. It works. It's been proven to work. The problem is people breaking the lock down rules. It prolongs things and the only way to make lockdowns more successful is dealing with these breaches.

Japan, Singapore, Vietnam, China, Thailand et al are all basket cases?
No. They are countries with proper contact tracing.
Proper contact tracing works.

Indefinite cycle of lockdowns does not work. I mean look at us - we are back round about the same situation as last year, with over 6 months of lockdowns in that time. And what have we gained? Nothing.

timmyntc

timmyntc wrote: »

Japan, Singapore, Vietnam, China, Thailand et al are all basket cases?
No. They are countries with proper contact tracing.
Proper contact tracing works.

Indefinite cycle of lockdowns does not work. I mean look at us - we are back round about the same situation as last year, with over 6 months of lockdowns in that time. And what have we gained? Nothing.

It only works when cases are very low and strict border controls implemented. We can't do the second, it's impossible. And there are several papers suggesting some level of pre existing immunity, anywhere from 20% to 50% to SARS COV2 in these populations.

timmyntc

Deleted User wrote: »

It only works when cases are very low and strict border controls implemented. We can't do the second, it's impossible. And there are several papers suggesting some level of pre existing immunity, anywhere from 20% to 50% to SARS COV2 in these populations.

A lot of those countries dont have strict border controls or mandatory quarantining. As soon as a positive case is flagged, they do not stop until they find how they contracted it, everyone theyve been in contact with, and ultimately how the virus got into the country.

We dont do that here - as Philip Nolan says, anything beyond the last 48hrs is merely an 'academic exercise'.

Retr0gamer

timmyntc wrote: »

Japan, Singapore, Vietnam, China, Thailand et al are all basket cases?
No. They are countries with proper contact tracing.
Proper contact tracing works.

Indefinite cycle of lockdowns does not work. I mean look at us - we are back round about the same situation as last year, with over 6 months of lockdowns in that time. And what have we gained? Nothing.

China is a definite basket case and I wouldn't go believing any of their numbers.

As for the other countries you mention, two things. They all had lock downs, same as us. What the advantages they had was no open land border with a basket case country like the UK. Secondly they are all asian countries and if you ever visited one of them you'd notice even pre-pandemic they were very much about about face masks to reduce airborne illnesses. Their society an advantage to them when it came to an airborne virus. Japan in particular has a society that would obey lockdown rules rigurously and look where that has gotten them compared to us.

So if all of these countries had lockdowns that worked isnt that just proof that lockdowns work?


Also, this is very important, contact testing is only possible when numbers are below a certain amount. We currently have about 500 infections daily. Doing contact testing on so many people isn't possible and also not feasible. There's only so much you can do but it's hard work when so many of these infected have been in contact with so many people. When the numbers were high in these countries contact testing wasn't working either.

Oranage2

Retr0gamer wrote: »

What other plans though? Have you any idea about how to open the country without causing mass deaths because all other countries that aren't a basket case are doing lockdowns. The problem at the moment isn't the lockdown. It works. It's been proven to work. The problem is people breaking the lock down rules. It prolongs things and the only way to make lockdowns more successful is dealing with these breaches.

I've made many suggestions in previous threads, and you'll be surprised to know that Ireland is in fact a backwards country.

Allinall

Oranage2 wrote: »

I've made many suggestions in previous threads, and you'll be surprised to know that Ireland is in fact a backwards country.

It’s really not.

Any evidence that we are a worse country than in the past?

Oranage2

Allinall wrote: »

It’s really not.

Any evidence that we are a worse country than in the past?

Not compared to the past but certainly compared to other first world countries. The fact that we've a blasphemy law and that abortions and divorces are very new to our society should tell you all you need to know. Also the people running the country are all school teachers and pub owners.

Andrewf20

Oranage2 wrote: »

I've made many suggestions in previous threads, and you'll be surprised to know that Ireland is in fact a backwards country.

Oranage2 wrote: »

Not compared to the past but certainly compared to other first world countries. The fact that we've a blasphemy law and that abortions and divorces are very new to our society should tell you all you need to know. Also the people running the country are all school teachers and pub owners.

2nd in the world on the human development index report & the 16th happiness country. I think overall we are doing ok...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report#2020_World_Happiness_Report

thenightman

The most vulnerable (nursing home folks) are completely vaccinated. Now its the underlying conditions folks. Surely when they are done some social respite must be afforded to us? level 5 lockdown going on four months + is not sustainable. Cases have plateaued because people have had enough, the level 5 tool is completely blunt at this stage. The goal was to keep the most vulnerable safe and out of ICU. When they are vaccinated that goal is complete. Now the goalposts are being moved to cases being too high, cases aren't all that important when ICU's aren't filling up surely?

Yer man Nolan (whose 'educated predictions' have never married with reality) casually talking about another 10 weeks of lockdown like its a fine long weekend is a slap in the face, and I don't understand how any rational person can accept such callous and careless chatter.

cnocbui

Allinall wrote: »

It’s really not.

Any evidence that we are a worse country than in the past?

Believe what you like, but I want to leave and never return, so badly you wouldn't believe.

Tazz T

cnocbui wrote: »

Believe what you like, but I want to leave and never return, so badly you wouldn't believe.

Exactly. Yet again this year we will be an outlier of the European community that we claim to be part of due to poor government with a disproportional reaction to a soon to be gone pandemic.

You should leave. Many can't.

wakka12

MrStuffins wrote: »

Portion of people disagree with and complain about the restrictions, giving out about "the gubernment" and saying "Mehole" loads of times.

They actively ignore restrictions.

Cases don't go down as quick as they should and restrictions are extended.

It's pointed out to them that this is because there is a portion of people who are ignoring the restrictions.

They say they are ignoring the restrictions because they disagree with them and say "Mehole" loads more times.

They actively ignore restrictions............

There is never ever going to be total compliance with any restrictions. Not under any circumstances should anyone make rules expecting that 100% of a population will agree and follow them, the rules have to be made to accomodate for that certainty. Which our goal from level 5 absolutely does not.It also ignores the fact that not everybody has a home where they can isolate effectively for indefinitely long periods of time. Essential workers, hospitals, homeless shelters, disabled people living in care conditions, special education where close contact is necessary, prisons etc there's so SO many exceptions where COVID will spread in a particular environmemt regardless of how hard we the majority lockdown which is why the arbitrary figure for what is acceptable COVID cases daily is so meaningless and unhelpful and really dangerously poor guidance for the country tbh and the population continues to be punished for COVID spread that is often completely out of their hands.

NeuralNetwork

Oranage2 wrote: »

Not compared to the past but certainly compared to other first world countries. The fact that we've a blasphemy law and that abortions and divorces are very new to our society should tell you all you need to know. Also the people running the country are all school teachers and pub owners.

We don’t have a blasphemy law. We entirely abolished it at a constitutional level and the blasphemy law we had on paper was originally dormant and the more recent incarnation was effectively unusable to bring any prosecution it had so many defences and exclusions, and nobody in the history of the state was ever convicted of blasphemy. The last conviction under it was 1855!

We’ve just modernised divorce laws without blinking, abortion was resolved without major fuss, we are one of the few countries on the planet that positively (not by court ruling) amended our constitution to enshrine same sex marriage rights and you can change gender by self determination and a solemn statement, and there wasn’t a decade long, heated debate about toilet signs, unlike the US... So whatever about the history, you couldn’t call contemporary Ireland anything but very progressive and pragmatic about a whole raft of social issues that absolutely vexed many western countries.

Also on blasphemy, such laws are actually common around Europe and many are actively enforced.

It’s also still an offence in Victoria, Tasmania and New South Wales.

New Zealand only abolished theirs in 2019.

They were only abolished in France in 2016, although were also dormant.

Finland has them, Italy has them, Germany has them with possible prison sentences.

Blasphemy is also still an offence in Northern Ireland and in Scotland, although you’re extremely unlikely to ever be prosecuted for it. It was only abolished in England & Wales in 2008 and the last prosecution there was 2007 albeit unsuccessful, but there was a successful prosecutions in 1977

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitehouse_v_Lemon

So yup, we are totally backwards ... having completely abolished blasphemy and never having convinced anyone of it in the first place...

Also we rank 8th in the world for democracy - ranking in the top ten, very close to the Nordic countries, NZ, Switzerland etc

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Only in Ireland... (rolls eyes)

wakka12

Deleted User wrote: »

Funny reading back on my OP from December 1st.

Seems like the answer to my question is at least 5 months of very severe lockdown followed by more months of heavy restrictions.

A complete failed experiment/policy.

We’ll be dealing with the fallout for years to come.

You've called a lot of things that are coming to fruition now especially how unsustainable our current approaches have been..and fairplay..you have got a lot of slack over it the last year and I think I probably referred to you as some kind of denialist or whatever at some point but anyway you stuck to your guns and were right so apologies for it. Although unfortunately it's not going to make up for the current situation the country finds itself in. I hope that a majority of the country comes to their sense in the run up the St Patricks Day and makes the government aware of how unacceptable it is to maintain the current level 5 for such an absurdly protracted period of time

Allinall

Oranage2 wrote: »

Not compared to the past but certainly compared to other first world countries. The fact that we've a blasphemy law and that abortions and divorces are very new to our society should tell you all you need to know. Also the people running the country are all school teachers and pub owners.

You’re just making stuff up now.

School teachers and pub owners eh? All of them?

The fact that abortions and divorces are relatively new means that we are now a forward moving country.

The exact opposite of what you claim.

cnocbui

Allinall wrote: »

You’re just making stuff up now.

School teachers and pub owners eh? All of them?

The fact that abortions and divorces are relatively new means that we are now a forward moving country.

The exact opposite of what you claim.

Trying to bury the records of the Mothers and Babies scandal and exempting the Catholic church from civil proceedings relating to pedophile priests, are not something an advanced country does.

The legal, banking and Helath systems in this country are all backward compared with other countries.

Accidentally

Allinall wrote: »

You’re just making stuff up now.

School teachers and pub owners eh? All of them?

The fact that abortions and divorces are relatively new means that we are now a forward moving country.

The exact opposite of what you claim.

Unfortunately in both these cases it was the people dragging the politicians with them. At a political level there is very little foresight and even less leadership.

Allinall

Accidentally wrote: »

Unfortunately in both these cases it was the people dragging the politicians with them. At a political level there is very little foresight and even less leadership.

That’s exactly how it should be.

The politicians represent and act on the wishes of the people.

MrMusician18

cnocbui wrote: »

Trying to bury the records of the Mothers and Babies scandal and exempting the Catholic church from civil proceedings relating to pedophile priests, are not something an advanced country does.

The legal, banking and Helath systems in this country are all backward compared with other countries.

Where are these mythical countries?
Utopia isn't a real place you know.

cnocbui

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Where are these mythical countries?
Utopia isn't a real place you know.

Australia and NZ would be two.

MrMusician18

cnocbui wrote: »

Australia and NZ would be two.

You'll let the Maori and Aboriginal peoples know that they were never oppressed by their wonderful governments.

No country is all sweetness and light.