Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

BoardsMember

Thought Murray did well when he came on, quick and unfussy. Henshaw tòo. And Conan. The bench turned the game from one we were really struggling in, to one we got a TBP from.

Must love hardship

For everyone giving out about healy.. was it not Furlongs side of the scrum which was under more pressure from genges illegal scrummaging??

Healy had a lovely intervention v Jamie George early in the first half.

I think it was a poor decision to start healy and o mahony together when Porter was missing. Hopefully the management learn from it

I think the entire front row struggled to be honest, but the bulk of penalties came through Furlong.

I think Healy is still playing absolutely fine, I just don't think he's a starter against a top 4 team in their own backyard (let's not forget England were 4th in the world until we beat them).

Reflecting on this forum yesterday, a lot of over reaction (mostly driven by the usual cranks) but there generally seems to be a lack of acknowledgment of how difficult a dominant scrum platform is to play against.

AckwelFoley

It just shows where Irish rugby is now when we go to Twickenham and beat England by 17 points and we are dissecting it like we lost. And that's good.

Scrum was terrible, but most disappointing of all for me as the amount of penalties conceded. The count was way too high. Needless mistakes too were irritating

That said, we left points on the field, frankly it could and probably should have been 50

England has some good performances and team spirit, but they never threatened the Irish line, so if we lost, it was from the boot. The RTE post match presenter Joanne (think thats her name) made the point England were the better team and lost. She was watching a different game. How you can not threaten the opposition line, spend the entire game on the back foot and lose by a bonus point victory and be a better team baffles me.

Englands scrum was effective, spirit was high, but ireland ground it out without being at out best. We were pretty poor against Italy but frankly with Italy with 12 men on the field at one point the game wasnt a contest, but overall to this point, looking at results, being pretty consistent

If france win next week they deserve the slam. If France lose and ireland win, Ireland deserve the slam, while France have been good, they are less consistent, their match in Friday being case in point and the number of bonus points we have compared to them would vindicate my point I'd like the think

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777742#Comment_118777742

I think what's far more telling is the underreaction the fact we played against 14 men for 78 minutes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777784#Comment_118777784

I disagree to be honest. Good teams can go down to 14 and still make it a game. Take out the scrum penalties yesterday and Ireland's 17 point margin widens on the basis of territory if nothing else.

I've said it in this thread already but worth repeating - I would rather a team play with 14 players and an utterly dominant scrum over 15 and the scrum giving up 5 - 7 penalties.

I would say we completely compounded the situation by playing so loose in their 22. Every turnover was a knock on by us - which gave them an automatic out through a scrum penalty on their own scrum. We played into their one strength on the pitch by trying to force things and I think we went into the game gunning for a bonus point to give us a shot next week and when we saw the red we tried to force it.

Having built a score and then allowing England back into it, Ireland teams of the past would have dropped their heads. I'm quite pleased that we went the other way.

I think a completely objective view of the game throws up plenty of positives and some qualification for the negatives. Big concern is the scrum and whether that was a once off or we have a targetable weakness there without Porter / Kelleher / Furlong.

Akrasia

We need to find a place for Gavin Coombes in the back row. I prefer him at 8 but he needs to be there somewhere. Nobody matches him for power in that role. He's going to be in the world cup starting 15 (injury permitting) so we need to get him up to speed

Clegg

I like Coombes as a player, but there's absolutely no way you can say for certain that he's going to start for Ireland at the World Cup. He's a good player, but currently lagging behind Doris and Conan at 6 and 8.

The fact he isn't getting much gametime at all when Farrell is all about bringing young players through, suggests to me that the coaches see issues with his game.

TRC10

Going down to 14 men in Rugby Union has nowhere near as big an impact as some would have you believe (especially when the teams are evenly matched) and history shows as much. In the Wales match last year we played most of the match with 14 and lost by a score and should have won. When we won our first ever game in SA, we played the vast majority of the game with 14. In fact very often the team with 14 wins. I don't know about anyone else, but I became way more nervous when England got the red card, because I knew just how much emotional energy it would give them and their crowd.

If anything, the red card psyched England up way more than they would have been. They fed off the emotional energy it gave them and used it to play a forward orientated pressure game by kicking and forcing errors, hence them scoring in 3s. It was peak England/Saracens 2016-2020. But ultimately, for all their screaming and shouting when we made errors, they never created any try scoring opportunities or looked like threatening our line. Whereas whenever we got the ball in their half we looked like we'd score. It was just poor decisions and handling errors that let them off the hook. We were always going to put them away when we cut out the errors, and that's what we did.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777872#Comment_118777872

While you might prefer to play with 14 men for close to a full game then 15 men and a dominated scrum I doubt any player or professional would. The reality is our inability to adapt to being dominated in the scrum is also a huge negative.

I honestly don't know how you can say a completely objective view of the game throws up more positives then negatives either tbh. Even saying the fact we built a score, allowed them back into in and our heads didn't drop is a positive is about as green tinted as you can get.

Again, our only big concern is the scrum? Yep, let's just ignore out in gain decision making and on-field leadership.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778030#Comment_118778030

Teams can adapt to playing with 14 men, teams can not adapt to one part of the set piece becoming a guaranteed penalty for the opposition. This isn't just my opinion, plenty of the post game commentary has highlighted the scrum as England's avenue into the game.

An objective view of the game does throw up plenty of positives. England didn't come close to scoring a try and only made it into our 22 via kicks to the corner (at least once from a scrum penalty). Ireland were FAR better ball in hand, had far more line breaks, defenders beaten, meters run and we won a good deal more of our ruck ball. One area where things were closer to parity? Territory - and that's what a dominant scrum does despite the rest of their game being completely second best. That's what's called being objective.

And you ignore the second part of what I said - qualifying the negatives. The biggest negative for me outside the scrum was the mistakes made against Italy being repeated. We kept trying to force it when all we needed to do was hold onto the ball. Lowe's offload, Beirne's offload and to a degree Doris's offloads that went forward were all tries within a few phases had we recycled in my opinion. Furlong carries with both hands instead of one into contact and again - we've possession inside the English 5m line.

These are fixable issues and let's remember why we're playing like this. Generally - we've had a decade of watching Ireland hammer away at try lines only not to score. Secondly - we really needed a bonus point from today. We need to reign it in a little bit especially when playing against 14 - but we definitely need to be a team that can strike more quickly and adeptly than we've done historically so I like this evolution of our game - building towards a world cup.

"Yep, let's just ignore out in gain decision making and on-field leadership."

Going to highlight this last part. England brought it back to 15 all, were in the ascendancy and knew that every knock on was a territory gain for them. The crowd were fever pitch. It was one of the best examples of leadership I've seen from an Ireland team to not just claw back the win, but to push on for a bonus point. I think that would have been beyond us in the past.

I think you're being ridiculously negative to be honest.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777784#Comment_118777784

We played against 14 men and utterly outplayed them.

What's the issue?

O'Mahony is a classic case of Ireland keeping players around too long. Heaslip was the same story, was a million miles from his best for a lengthy period of time.

Finally Murray is coming off the bench but was a starter for a solid two years beyond his best days. Kearney was a similar story but not as offensive as the aforementioned.

We're far too teary-eyed about our players and need to be more ruthless if we want to compete at World Cups.

The fact we're likely gonna start a 38-year-old Sexton at a World Cup in 18 months is utterly bonkers. He'll be the second oldest player ever to play at a World Cup.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778276#Comment_118778276

The fact we're likely gonna start a 38-year-old Sexton at a World Cup in 18 months is utterly bonkers. He'll be the second oldest player ever to play at a World Cup.

We're likely going to start our best available team. If Sexton is still our best out half in 18 months he'll start. Explain how that's bonkers?

Surely starting a clearly inferior player because he's younger is even more bonkers?

Clegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778276#Comment_118778276

You posted this nonsense yesterday and deleted it soon after. So I'll just paste my reply to your original.

Heaslip was a consistently excellent player to the day he retired. No idea where you've got the idea that he stayed on too long. He suffered his back injury in 2017. In 2016 he was nominated for World Player of the Year.

He's in the conversation alongside POC, BOD and Sexton for the greatest Irish player in the professional era.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778165#Comment_118778165

We went into yesterday game favourites. If England had 15 players on the pitch I don't think we would have been comfortably beaten. That's my concern. Maybe we improve before the world cup, maybe we can hope at the world cup when we okay elite teams that they'll be playing 78 minutes with one man less then us.

We won. But there were far more that concerned me then the opposite when talking about where we will be next year and for the world cup.

Bogwoppit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778307#Comment_118778307

If my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle.

England lifted their individual performances and absolutely emptied themselves to get back level aided by a very poor ref.

They never looked like scoring a try where as we had plenty of opportunities. A red card disrupts the game for both sides, we could have dealt with it better but we still scored 4 tries to none in twickenham, that deserves respect no matter what the circumstances.

Clegg

Hugo Keenan is an incredible rugby player. Makes the correct decision so often. Think he's going to be one if the first names on the teamsheet for the foreseeable future.

https://twitter.com/CianTracey1/status/1502957777899110407?t=246TVPji4ESEEX5QyO4lFA&s=09

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1502991296717369346?t=vJCCSRqWxkQf-75fk6kqMw&s=09

TRC10

Finlay Bealham's dad, who hasn't seen his son in 2 years, crying after seeing his haircut

Bogwoppit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778423#Comment_118778423

The line he ran for his try was sensational.

I'm finding the negativity after that game totally ridiculous. On here, media reaction, it's absurd.

For once, I agree with Stephen Jones.

https://twitter.com/stephenjones9/status/1502784264726888453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778490#Comment_118778490

I think England have been fairly paltry, unenergetic and disinterested throughout the tournament. I think they were the opposite yesterday and that can be important for a team. If they go on to beat France next week I think the narrative will be that the team turned a corner attitude wise under adversity in yesterdays game and built a performance out of that.

If they lose then yeah - a once off effort but a team going backwards otherwise.

I don't think either side should be happy coming away from the game, but I can see why England are pleased they brought it back to 15 all and got the crowd behind them.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777743#Comment_118777743

Don't mind RTE, I have yet to see some of them give any praise. EOS was the same and Flannary was just laughing at him. A bonus point victory and the best team lost, crazy sh*t

ALl England done all day was tackle players and kick the ball as high as possible. They done it well but they showed nothing else, Ireland created all the chances and scored all the tries.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778423#Comment_118778423

Thought the back 3 did well yesterday, Keenan was very good, Lowe had some great runs, his ability to stay on the pitch and drive the extra yard is great and Conway was also very good in particular a couple of 50/22s, although I thought after the first one he had a look of a man who just realised he could do it.

Clegg

I think Ringrose is having his strongest Six Nations to date. We've always known he was a very talented runner with ball in hand and he showed that ability against Wales and France.

Yesterday though, he showed his passing skills. On two separate occasions he found himself with a bit if space in front of him. Twice he straightened the line, fixed the defender and passed to a man in space. That led to two trys for us.

He has been criticised at times for not being aware of what's around him. But yesterday he displayed the basics of outside centre play perfectly.

StevenToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778293#Comment_118778293

Heaslip isnt even in the conversation for best no.8 we ever had....

Id have willie duggan, eric miller, cj stander, anthony foley...even john muldoon ahead of him....

Clegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778684#Comment_118778684

Never seen Willie Duggan play so I can't comment on that. But Heaslip was a far better player than anyone else on that list.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778684#Comment_118778684

I really like Foley. Knew fatmans track better than anyone. One of the smartest players on pitch you will ever see but i would have Heaslip ahead. Heaslip also well ahead of Miller and Muldoon. Not a bit close for either of them. Willie Duggan ahead of my time so cant comment too much on him

OldRio

England's 'heroic defeat' will give Jones something to grasp onto. Realistically they have serious problems. Ireland cut them apart. Scotland beat them. Wales had every opportunity.

The last couple of years their 6 nations campaigns have been poor. The blazers at the RFU might be sharpening their knives. World Cup next year has probably bought Jones a little more time.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778572#Comment_118778572

I've no problem being critical with our performance, because frankly i spent quite a while effin and blinding at the TV with the amount of penalties and unforced errors. We need to be critical and I'm sure the team will be too. Gone are the days of we won and that's all that matters.

But as you said, England didn't threaten our line at all and the really spent the majority of the game in their own half on the back foot

England played well in but they shot their load getting to 15-15, they were exhausted and it showed. But they were not the better team, not by a long shot.

Going in to Twickenham as favourites and winning by 17 is a good result by any metric. We have gone their before when we were fancied and got our arses handed to us

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778684#Comment_118778684

What utter nonsense.

Heaslip was immense. 229 Leinster caps, 100 test caps (95 Ireland, 5 Lions), a stack of medals to back it up. He was integral part of a Leinster side that won 3 HC in 4 seasons

He is one of the best players we have ever produced.

tooka

Did anyone think the reactions of some of the English forwards to a turnover or winning a scrum penalty bordered on derangement

Jamie George and genge and itoje over the top reactions were comical to me.

kuang1

A few here mentioning how we were favourites yesterday... I checked paddypower just before kick off yesterday and they had England as favourites by a solitary point in the handicap betting.

So England were favourites in the eyes of paddypower.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118779180#Comment_118779180

Nothing wrong with it tbh. Theyre coached to celebrate these things. It came through the sarries players a lot. They were encouraged do it at Sarries. Players there are told to celebrate the small victories and often celebrate if they get a turnover because they want to celebrate the effort of the players around them.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118779180#Comment_118779180

Sarries came up with that, that's why you had George and Itoje leading the rest of the players. The do it to try and get a reaction from the other players.

Fair play to the Irish players for not reacting and well played to Sexton for running up after the Irish players lost the ball and gave anyone a big shout, clap on back etc. Made George who was shouting and roaring look like a plonker.

L

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778845#Comment_118778845

That's not a "heroic defeat", they never looked in an ass's roar of scoring a try. The whole game plan was based on tackling anything that moved and kicking the ball, which is more or less what Jones has done in every game. Of course some England fans think it was great but the rest can see it as nothing more than another balls up made by Jones.

That been said he wont be sacked, he will sack all the coach's he hired last year, if he manages to fall onto another coach like Mitchell then England of course could do great things in Wc, if not then Jones is in big trouble. He should have let Mitchell go watch his son.

Jones took over an England team in 2015 which had a huge issue in centre with Manu wasn't available, in 2022 he is still managing a team which has a huge issue when Manu us not available, he never even tried to fix the issue. Manu injured for WC and they are also screwed

mfceiling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778684#Comment_118778684

Eric Miller better than Heaslip 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

bobbyss

Wish they would all stop those sneaky looks at the TV monitor.

Clegg

Eric Miller was a good player. But the most memorable thing he ever did was get a 30 day ban for kicking Anthony Foley in the balls.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118779180#Comment_118779180

Not at all. It was exactly the right thing to do in that situation. They were clearly up against a mamooth task and mentally celebrating those victories to keep and moral and adrenaline up is essential in those situations.

That was really the only positive from England's performance yesterday. They fought hard all the way and never gave up. Being honest I was actually surprised they did, I would have said it more likely they turn in a bit of a shambles.

TRC10

Did anyone else see Jamie George literally bubbling up in his post match interview and saying it was "one of his proudest moments in an England shirt". That's pretty embarrassing to be honest. Like, I know they were down to 14, but they still got outscored 4 tries to 0 and lost by 17 points, which shouldn't be happing even with a man advantage. We were all raging after losing AWAY to Wales last year, having played 4/5 of the game with 14. Maybe they just rate us so highly that losing to us by 17 points is a "heroic effort". Maybe we should be flattered.

If an Irish player said that after a 17 point loss at home, I'd never want to see them in a green jersey ever again.

OneLungDavy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780017#Comment_118780017

Couldn't agree more. Englands standards have slipped so much, down to celebrating after this loss. They gave up trying to play rugby, kicked everything and relied on their scrum and defence pressure. At least when we lost POM last year we still scored a few tries and played a bit.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780017#Comment_118780017

I suspect their view is understandably coloured by bringing the game back to 15-15 with not much time to go. That was a phenomenal performance to that point. Ireland did exceptionally well to take advantage of the tiring English side to close the game out exceptionally well. Seems some of us are going out of our way to find fault in England being proud of what they managed for 60 min.

Dubinusa

I donthink we can gloss over the reality. Our handling was fairly poor yesterday. Decision making was poor at times. The scrum was mullered! Tadgh Furlong was outplayed! When have we ever said that. Healy looks completely off the pace and of course, Carberry was only trusted to play for 20 seconds!

If England are as poor as some think, we are not as good as I hoped we would be. Winning by 17 is grand but, it was only in the last 8 minutes that we pulled away. I can't understand why our lads felt the need to force things. Some slower play and cooler heads were needed, imo.

crossman47

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778293#Comment_118778293

Add ROG to that list.

Clegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780276#Comment_118780276

He's a level below those four. I don't think he had the consistency across his entire career, nor the Lions recognition.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780319#Comment_118780319

His points records, his match winning abilities. winning kicks for grand slam as well as role with Munsters wins in europe. he is def up with those 4.

Clegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780355#Comment_118780355

Thought his final 3/4 seasons were very poor. Just didn't play well enough. He was very good at his peak, but didn't last as long as the others. Also, he was very poor across the 09 Grand Slam season. BOD was the standout player that year.

And there's the fact that he was never the undisputed best across B&I or Europe unlike BOD, POC, Sexton or Heaslip.

ROG for me is in the same bracket as Bowe and Kearney.

Podge_irl

I do love a ROG conversation... 😄

ROG was great, but his game had too many flaws for him to be in the same bracket as BOD/POC/Heaslip/Sexton. Sexton on his own is, frankly, starkly ahead of him. That is why Stephen Jones was the starting flyhalf for the Lions ahead of him.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780017#Comment_118780017

A recently underperforming English team, lost a player after 2 minutes and still put it up to a highly rated Irish team turning the crowd in their favour in an almost cinematic fashion, and as a front row his role in that was key. Of course he was emotional, of course it meant a lot to him. If anything it says how rated Ireland are at the moment.

Good for Jamie George, seems hugely popular amongst the Irish players and has had a terrific career. If that game meant a lot to him then I'm happy to have seen Ireland come out the right side of that. We've had plenty of emotional Irish players interviewed after coming second best and now we're the team winning.