Ireland vs Wales, Friday 13th Nov 2020 7pm

OldRio

This made me laugh. I'm blocked by Jones.

https://twitter.com/LinebreakRugby/status/1327391621709750273?s=20

salmocab

salmocab wrote: »

What makes you say this?

Looked like POM made the decision for Murray to kick to the posts out from the left side

pickarooney

What's this "on debut" craic you hear all over the place in rugby now?
Since when do people say this instead of "on his debut"?

eastie17

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I'm a bit more reserved about Lowe than the sticky love-in that many enjoy, but I just saw his post-game interview talking about his thoughts during the anthems and wishing his family could be in the stadium, and you'd have to be completely stone-hearted not to appreciate how he wears his heart on his sleeve.

Yeah but this project thing is getting out of hand, 4 of the 15 were from overseas at one stage yesterday. I know we can do it but should we? I don’t know if we’d be much worse off and it’s sickening for lads like Cooney trying to grab a spot

CMcsporty

pickarooney wrote: »

What's this "on debut" craic you hear all over the place in rugby now?
Since when do people say this instead of "on his debut"?

Since we started getting the NZ commentary
Think Grant Nesbitt started the malarkey.
Was cool from him
Cringe from Nugent and the rest

CMcsporty

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Looked like POM made the decision for Murray to kick to the posts out from the left side

He also told Ryan and Murray to take a scrum
I thought it obvious from tv feed that Ryan was the dedicated ref talker with POM giving nods and one word decisions

CMcsporty

Morathi wrote: »

Genuine question, why are you not a fan?

Dunno where you're getting the YC idea from, he's had one in his whole tenure in Ireland.

Well I can imagine why someone wouldn’t like him
Personally hate the woohooing sh1te
But I’m old and grumpy

I do love his other attitudes. Takes zero crap and never a backward step in a schemozzle.
Ireland desperately need more of these type of characters.
CJ, POM, Aki they all leave confrontations on their terms.
Needed next week.
Loved seeing him pushing Williams out of the way

Re his defence
3 times he let it drop in the 22’? I must watch again.

Unfortunately if it comes down to his defence in the 11 jersey there is only one guy who will get selected. Lowe

He’s not the complete winger but it’s obvious that he will prosper at the highest level of international rugby.
If not for the appalling pass from Sexton he would have had another try.

He should definitely get another start v England

Solutionking

I would love to see the following coming to a stadium near us

11. Lowe
12. Aki/Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14. Larmour
15. Stockdale

If we had those backs and Farrel & co couldn't get a proper attack going then need to answer questions

Garda Kenny

Buer wrote: »

Commitment is useless without any structure or focus. They were atrocious. Horrible discipline, horrible set piece and horrible on both sides of the ball in play. There didn't seem to be any attacking plan at all. They only had 39% possession yet still kicked more ball away than us.

Ireland were largely competent and efficient. I think it says a lot when the reaction is fairly muted as we didn't beat Wales by more than 23.

The big positives to take are that we got to see a few things we haven't previously. Lowe went really well. A couple of defensive lapses but he gave us something nobody else has in attack. I thought Farrell linked well and was a great asset for tidying ball up for us, putting us back on the front foot. He should start next week.

Doris is better at 8 than 6. His handling is something we haven't had since Heaslip. Stander is undroppable. I'd like to see them swap positions which is harsh on POM after last night. James Ryan needs to get his form back and take more responsibility out of touch. He hasn't been poor but he's certainly not at the heights he was.

Kelleher was good but the throwing issues are still there. Mostly went well but a couple lost and there was definitely at least one if not two others that were blatantly crooked and not called.

Happy to see Burns get a run out. He looked competent and eager to get involved. Defended well. He certainly doesn't run the back line as effectively though and we lost a lot of attacking threat after Sexton went off. Wales were chasing shadows in midfield for the first 30 minutes.

Healy and Porter were very solid. There scrummaging was excellent but a few nice moments in the loose too such as Healy forcing a breakdown penalty.

VDF was very quiet and isn't going to get back into the side particularly with Vunipola on the horizon and Connors being a specialist in stopping guys.

Solid performance all told. But it has to be viewed through the prism of the quality of opposition. The scrum and back row performances won't be allowed influence to the same level next week.

The lineout is an area to put a caveat on. Kelleher is mentally frail and can’t seem to thrive on pressure throws. Think his card might be marked by now. Sheehan, O Byrne and Herring for are the three in contention by next World Cup.

Jumpers aren’t altogether convincing either outside of OMahony. Ryan seems to be only reliable if there isn’t a contest in the air and when there is it’s 50-50 whether he’ll take it down cleanly. We need Henderson back and look at the option of maybe another top class jumper like Beirne coming in off the bench.

You can add Gibson Park to the list of positives. Some have said his decision making is iffy at times going blind when it’s not on. I believe he varies it nicely and his wide skip passes off the base open up defences where Murray cannot do that. He is also quicker than Murray and I don’t buy this line that he isn’t as reliable.

Doris and Connors looked like a level above along with OMahony but I agree that the mix has to be right and we need carriers like Stander starting and taking pressure off Doris. For me O Mahoney loses out but I can’t stress enough how good he is at setting the tone for the pack and being a nuisance to the opposition. It’s a very close call but he possibly isn’t an impact player off the bench either.

Burns looked good. He ran the ball a lot which is what you want from your fly half. Kicking fly halves like the Leinster understudies aren’t what Ireland needs especially with a frail looking lineout. Giving possession away is only right if you can stop the opposition upfield and contain them there. Our defence doesn’t look like it can do that with Sexton and Henshaw playing.

Which brings me to centres. Farrell and Aki playing together is tailor made pairing for teams like England. I would like to see that combination given a whirl next weekend.

Solutionking

Garda Kenny wrote: »

The lineout is an area to put a caveat on. Kelleher is mentally frail and can’t seem to thrive on pressure throws. Think his card might be marked by now. Sheehan, O Byrne and Herring for are the three in contention by next World Cup.

Jumpers aren’t altogether convincing either outside of OMahony. Ryan seems to be only reliable if there isn’t a contest in the air and when there is it’s 50-50 whether he’ll take it down cleanly. We need Henderson back and look at the option of maybe another top class jumper like Beirne coming in off the bench.

You can add Gibson Park to the list of positives. Some have said his decision making is iffy at times going blind when it’s not on. I believe he varies it nicely and his wide skip passes off the base open up defences where Murray cannot do that. He is also quicker than Murray and I don’t buy this line that he isn’t as reliable.

Doris and Connors looked like a level above along with OMahony but I agree that the mix has to be right and we need carriers like Stander starting and taking pressure off Doris. For me O Mahoney loses out but I can’t stress enough how good he is at setting the tone for the pack and being a nuisance to the opposition. It’s a very close call but he possibly isn’t an impact player off the bench either.

Burns looked good. He ran the ball a lot which is what you want from your fly half. Kicking fly halves like the Leinster understudies aren’t what Ireland needs especially with a frail looking lineout. Giving possession away is only right if you can stop the opposition upfield and contain them there. Our defence doesn’t look like it can do that with Sexton and Henshaw playing.

Which brings me to centres. Farrell and Aki playing together is tailor made pairing for teams like England. I would like to see that combination given a whirl next weekend.

:P

It was his first start

clsmooth

Garda Kenny wrote: »

The lineout is an area to put a caveat on. Kelleher is mentally frail and can’t seem to thrive on pressure throws. Think his card might be marked by now. Sheehan, O Byrne and Herring for are the three in contention by next World Cup.

Jumpers aren’t altogether convincing either outside of OMahony. Ryan seems to be only reliable if there isn’t a contest in the air and when there is it’s 50-50 whether he’ll take it down cleanly. We need Henderson back and look at the option of maybe another top class jumper like Beirne coming in off the bench.

You can add Gibson Park to the list of positives. Some have said his decision making is iffy at times going blind when it’s not on. I believe he varies it nicely and his wide skip passes off the base open up defences where Murray cannot do that. He is also quicker than Murray and I don’t buy this line that he isn’t as reliable.

Doris and Connors looked like a level above along with OMahony but I agree that the mix has to be right and we need carriers like Stander starting and taking pressure off Doris. For me O Mahoney loses out but I can’t stress enough how good he is at setting the tone for the pack and being a nuisance to the opposition. It’s a very close call but he possibly isn’t an impact player off the bench either.

Burns looked good. He ran the ball a lot which is what you want from your fly half. Kicking fly halves like the Leinster understudies aren’t what Ireland needs especially with a frail looking lineout. Giving possession away is only right if you can stop the opposition upfield and contain them there. Our defence doesn’t look like it can do that with Sexton and Henshaw playing.

Which brings me to centres. Farrell and Aki playing together is tailor made pairing for teams like England. I would like to see that combination given a whirl next weekend.

That’s extremely knee jerk with regards Kelleher. He’a got plenty of development to come. It could be argued that defence is the strongest part of Sexton (2020 edition) and Henshaw’s game. I don’t think we lose against England either due to our centre combos. It all comes down to matching them up front. Henshaw and Aki are a combo is plenty physical and it didn’t help us in Twickenham earlier this year.

Richard Hillman

I'm not going to give up on Murray but hopefully JGP moving the ball quickly woke up everyone in the Irish set up. Running up to a ruck and standing there for 3-4 seconds waiting for some set piece manoeuvre is from a bygone era.

I honestly thought the Japan game last year would have been a lightbulb moment. Where it was painfully obvious that we were by far slower than any decent team at moving the ball.

clsmooth

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I'm not going to give up on Murray but hopefully JGP moving the ball quickly woke up everyone in the Irish set up. Running up to a ruck and standing there for 3-4 seconds waiting for some set piece manoeuvre is from a bygone era.

I doubt Murray will ever develop that aspect of his game at this stage of his career. That said, you see the benefit of having him involved on the bench with his goal kicking ability and ability to cover 10 at a pinch. We already know he’s well able to close out games. Refreshing to see a bit of zip from 9. Hoping JGP holds onto his place next week although if Sexton is out, I suspect Murray will get the nod with an inexperienced 10 outside him.

Solutionking

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I'm not going to give up on Murray but hopefully JGP moving the ball quickly woke up everyone in the Irish set up. Running up to a ruck and standing there for 3-4 seconds waiting for some set piece manoeuvre is from a bygone era.

I honestly thought the Japan game last year would have been a lightbulb moment. Where it was painfully obvious that we were by far slower than any decent team at moving the ball.

I personally don't think Murray is playing bad, he is playing ok we are just so used to him been incredible.

I do think the way Ireland are trying to play requires quicker ball, I do think next wekk we will have Byrne or Burns at 10 against England and we need Murray on the pitch. A inexperienced 9 & 10 against England they will gobble up

theVersatile

Garda Kenny wrote: »

The lineout is an area to put a caveat on. Kelleher is mentally frail and can’t seem to thrive on pressure throws. Think his card might be marked by now. Sheehan, O Byrne and Herring for are the three in contention by next World Cup.

You can add Gibson Park to the list of positives. Some have said his decision making is iffy at times going blind when it’s not on. I believe he varies it nicely and his wide skip passes off the base open up defences where Murray cannot do that. He is also quicker than Murray and I don’t buy this line that he isn’t as reliable.
.

So your answer to the dodgy darts is Dan Sheehan who had three overthrows last weekend, and not Heffernan for some reason? Calling Kelleher mentally frail after one start is daft - and the shiny new toy syndrome is incredibly annoying (might as well call up Michael Milne as well to sort out our LH problems am I right!???)

Variation means nothing if its the wrong decision being made and we lose momentum as a result. It only happened on a handful of occasions so I wouldn't be extremely critical, but there's definitely a reason someone like Murray takes the extra second to assess his options.

Akrasia

OldRio wrote: »

We've just scored over 30 points against Wales and never looked like shipping a try. Played really well in patches. When we play at speed it's a joy to watch.
Yet.
Slightly disappointed to be honest. Far to many points left out there esp in the first half and as for the performance at the start of the second half, well it was awful. Unfortunately this trait in our game is becoming a habit.

As for Wales? 6 losses on the bounce and they looked devoid of ideas. Dreadful.

Wales seemed to have no plan other than to have Halfpenny bang in penalties from anywhere close to his range. It might have worked if he was up to his usual standard and kept them in range a little bit longer

3 of the penalties he kicked from were incredibly harsh, I don't think there was any infringement at all, never mind just a marginal 50:50 call, but that's the refereeing we've got to get used to

Akrasia

CMcsporty wrote: »

Wales were disjointed in their defence and offered nothing in attack.
I don’t think it’s fair to say that Farrell should start because he played ok in that game.
V’s Aki against France

There is a case to play both Aki and Farrell v England in the interest of pure beef.
But with no Tuilagi....
The half back selection will probably dictate who he picks at 12
If it’s JGP and Byrne. Henshaw will probably start.

My preference would be for Marmion, Carty, Aki, Henshaw

Btw is JG Park first senior 80 min performance?
He did well. Snappier

I thought JGP played well but some of his breaks and blindside moves were telegraphed far too much and they didn't have the impact they could have had if he had sold a dummy. for example, that move where he broke around the ruck and passed to Earls, there was space there, but it was closed very quickly as it was obvious a few seconds before what he was going to do.

Akrasia

CMcsporty wrote: »

Re his defence
3 times he let it drop in the 22’? I must watch again.

There was one kick that he was defending where the ball landed behind him and bounced very awkwardly 2 times, Lowe had time to let it bounce and pick it up on the 3rd bounce

I thought this was actually mature play because he had the time to do it, the welsh kickchase was poor and he wasn't under pressure to catch the awkward bounce

It would have been a different story if the welsh had chased it better and he was forced to make the risky catch with a chance that he could fumble it within out own 22 with no support around him

In hindsight losing Henderson and Stockdale right before kick off and then losing both out halves and still making Wales look completely ordinary is impressive. With Larmour, Ringrose and Furlong to come back in I think a bit of context is required around the performance.

A brief browse of some welsh forums and they are very unhappy and a lot of talk already about Pivac's position but I think the mismanagement of the regions is much more to blame. The talent isn't there at the moment.

schmoo2k

eastie17 wrote: »

Yeah but this project thing is getting out of hand, 4 of the 15 were from overseas at one stage yesterday. I know we can do it but should we? I don’t know if we’d be much worse off and it’s sickening for lads like Cooney trying to grab a spot

Them the rules - would be stupid to not work with them. Also the limiting of foreign players at club level achieves what your asking for, but at the end of the day talent will surface to the top.

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

In hindsight losing Henderson and Stockdale right before kick off and then losing both out halves and still making Wales look completely ordinary is impressive. With Larmour, Ringrose and Furlong to come back in I think a bit of context is required around the performance.

A brief browse of some welsh forums and they are very unhappy and a lot of talk already about Pivac's position but I think the mismanagement of the regions is much more to blame. The talent isn't there at the moment.

I know one or two players are kicking on and Warburton and a couple of others have gone but the more I look at this Welsh team and consider how their regions perform in the Pro 14 and Europe the more I come to the conclusion that Gatland was a coaching genius there.

bilston

bilston wrote: »

I know one or two players are kicking on and Warburton and a couple of others have gone but the more I look at this Welsh team and consider how their regions perform in the Pro 14 and Europe the more I come to the conclusion that Gatland was a coaching genius there.

They were still pretty inconsistent at times but he was definitely able to motivate a response.

This team looks brow beaten.

aloooof

Some thoughts on the game, with a bit of a view towards England:

1. I think overall there were plenty of positives. But I feel it's hard to know how much to read into them as Wales were absolutely dire. I suspect we'll learn an awful lot more next week about how this team is progressing.
   
   
2. Good first half, not so good second half. Particularly the first 10 mins after HT. That's happened 2 games in a row now, hope that doesn't become a trend.
   
   
3. We demolished them in the set piece. Really encouraging at scrum time, especially with Healy and Porter next week facing up against 2 of the Sarries front row that got the better of them in the scrum in September.
   
   
4. JGP with some very snappy service. I thought he took the wrong option once or twice (particularly after one of Lowe's breaks into their 22, when a try was on). He also had 2-3 box kicks that were aimed centrally. Initially thought it was poor execution (was expecting them towards the 5m line), but doing it a number of times made me think it was by design.
   
   If Sexton is fit for next weekend, I'd expect JGP to keep his place.
   
   
5. Very quiet game from VdF. With Wales having such comparatively little possession and carrying*, the things he excels at became less important. (*The stat at HT was that Wales had 12 carries).
   
   
6. Excellent outing from POM. His lineout ability, especially defensively, is superior to any other backrow we have, imo. If Sexton is injured, there might be a case for having him in next week with the leadership he brings, but also with the pressure Itoje exerts on our lineout, which hasn't been in brilliant shape. (Thought the decision to take 3 points early on was influenced by Kellehers poor throw just a min or 2 previous, with a penalty in an almost identical position).
   
   Having said that, I thought Doris was excellent again and personally would go 6. CJ, 7. Connors and 8. Doris next week.
   
   
7. James Ryan not quite scaling the heights we're used to seeing from him. Not bad by any means, but hopefully can get back to his old self soon.
   
   
8. Thought Farrell played well, particularly in 1st half. Hard to know what midfield combination to go with now, but I'm pretty happy with any combination.
   
   
9. Lowe with some excellent passages of play. Seemed to really mean a lot to him too in his interview, hard not to be happy for the guy.
   
   
10. The 10 situation is a worry. Any news on Sexton or Burns? If they're both out we're probably look at Ross Byrne who's only other start was against England in that RWC warm-up game.

Solutionking

^^^
Byrne was not the issue against England the last time. It doesn't matter who we play at 10 if they walk all over us again.

I agree POM had a good game, but I just cant see him as an option against England. I would go withthe backrow as you mentioned

I don't think JGP and POM in the same backrow is a good combination, they are too similar in what they are doing, end up falling over each other

pickarooney

bilston wrote: »

I know one or two players are kicking on and Warburton and a couple of others have gone but the more I look at this Welsh team and consider how their regions perform in the Pro 14 and Europe the more I come to the conclusion that Gatland was a coaching genius there.

Then you look at what he managed with the Chiefs this season...

CMcsporty

Akrasia wrote: »

I thought JGP played well but some of his breaks and blindside moves were telegraphed far too much and they didn't have the impact they could have had if he had sold a dummy. for example, that move where he broke around the ruck and passed to Earls, there was space there, but it was closed very quickly as it was obvious a few seconds before what he was going to do.

Good points
At least he was making the breaks
Something sorely lacking by Ireland and makes it easier for the defence to close down the Irish attack because they don’t need to worry about the SH sniping around a ruck.
In fairness to Murray he did this at least once v France

Asus X540L

fitz wrote: »

Looks way more comfortable at 15 than Stockdale did.

That wouldn't be too hard.

Digifriendly

Wayne Pivac and Ian Foster must be 2 coaches under a lot of pressure at present.

bilston

pickarooney wrote: »

Then you look at what he managed with the Chiefs this season...

True

Dubinusa

Bizarre watching Wales. They were ranked world #1 18 months ago! Complete free fall.
That was a pretty easy win. All of the players were good.
POM, Doris the standouts. VDF showed up when Wales got some possession in the 2nd half. He is under pressure now, but I think he's going to rebound.
Keenan was not tested at all, which was a pity. We didn't learn much about his defense. Our line out defense was very good. Ryan and POM challenged a lot of the Welch throw ins. with great results. Sexton looked brilliant. Burns looked good and JGP served up quick ball. We look a better side right now. Not as predictable. Next week will be a test. Seriously tough match up, but I think we'll do better than the last few meetings.
Kilcoyne can't get back fast enough. Healy was good yesterday and is capable but the drop off to EB is quite large. I thought Kelleher was very busy around the park. He's not the complete package yet.
Farrell and Henshaw worked well together. A different look and big and powerful. Lowe was grand. He and Conway are our best options atm.
I really hope Keenan gets the nod next week. A great test of his defense.
We did make some poor mistakes. Ryan knocking on. Sexton with a stray pass, but I like the variation of what they are trying. Ryan was good. Not brilliant but solid. He's a lock to get the call every time. He's the best lock we have, even when he's average. Roux was very good.
I reckon next week we will push England and who knows, we may win.