Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117712836#Comment_117712836

Would you not be in favour of mandating drivers off local roads onto the M50, based on your principle ; "if good infrastructure exists, it should be mandatory to use it."?

Or is it just cyclist route choices that we get to dictate?

Larbre34

No. Yes. Maybe?

Of course not, but consider it in these terms instead. Why would a pedestrian with a nice wide, even footpath walk on the road? It makes no sense that they would. Likewise with cycling, it should make no sense for cyclists not to use good infrastructure where it exists. You're calling for good infrastructure and for the freedom not to use it. I mean, sure, fine, go for your life but it's an odd contradiction. All road use by all road users is an element of being dictated to, its just the nature of a rules based system.

magicbastarder

You seem to be a chap who understands the need for rules and proper regulations. Lemme tell you about 'good' cycling infrastructure....

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117713420#Comment_117713420

If truly 'good' infrastructure is built, there should be no need to mandate its use. When driving from Galway to Dublin, nobody is mandated to use the motorway - in fact they pay for the privilege - and yet because it's the fastest safest route between A and B, nearly everyone uses it. Those who don't have their reasons - they need to make a stop elsewhere, they want to enjoy a more scenic route, etc.

Cycling infrastructure should be treated the exact same - so fast and safe that you use it by default, not by law.

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117713119#Comment_117713119

There was a poster earlier on the thread advocating exactly this for vehicular traffic coming from the southside to the port. You didnt seem to have a problem with that🤔

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117713588#Comment_117713588

Thats a false equivalence and anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see it. Pretty poor stuff there buffalo

Macy0161

How infrastructure is viewed by the locals should be only one factor, and probably a very small one. None of these projects are just for locals. They're for everyone who may have a reason to use the roads that the entire population pays for through general taxation. Locals don't like carysfort avenue infrastructure? So what, if the people that are using for commuting, recreation, whatever do.

The carry on, and apparent changes, based upon locals opinions on bus connects (and luas/ metro) is exactly why the broader context should take priority. This had potential to transform the city for the entire population. Prioritising a small cohort at the expense of the rest of the population - in what was already compromised scheme to try and minimise disruption to cars - is ridiculous.

Again, I type this as someone who has spent the majority of the last 20 years as a single occupancy car commuter. That doesn't mean I don't support progress, or think progress should be stalled, to suit me.

magicbastarder

care to explain why it's not a reasonable comparison? and why we shouldn't also force people to use the motorway if they're driving from galway to dublin?

it's the safest and fastest way.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708780#Comment_117708780

The issue with Keegan is that he shows up everywhere and seems to have his hand in everything. He was also behind that aborted College Green thing. His approach seems to be to drive a lot of cars out of the city, it looks like all at times. Fewer cars would benefit but we don't have a good enough public infrastructure to do that and he seem to think the answer is anything but private cars. Somewhere in the conversation there is a workable solution but it won't come from Keegan.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117713974#Comment_117713974

I'm ambivalent about Keegan, but College Green (and Strand Road) were about prioritising other modes of transport, and giving people safer options. Seems like you're criticising for trying to make the changes that make other options more viable, while at the same time saying he's not doing enough to make other modes more viable?

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117713857#Comment_117713857

Sorry it's not up to the high standards of your rebuttal. 😂

Chiliconkeni

Apologies for posting this if it has been mentioned before. It seems to be just fully opened now.

I'm all for using the bike lanes instead of the road as I feel it is far safer. However the new cycle lane going from Sandyford to Goatstown direction has now added six separate pedestrian/bike crossings to my journey. Six times within 900m I have to stop and press the button, wait for the green man. I stick to the bike lane but it's just an example of poor infrastructure.

This example for me is what leads to arguments between cyclists and motorists about using/not using the bike lane. I can see both sides of the argument - car drivers see the investment in all these lanes but perhaps don't see the effectiveness of the cycling infrastructure.

Key: Red is a pedestrian crossing.

Note: About 200m of a two lane bike lane is on the Audi Garage/Beacon hospital side of the Drummartin link road and stops just after the Beacon Hospital junction, so you have to cross back again to the other side of the road to head towards Goatstown direction.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714007#Comment_117714007

It was shot down in court because the plan was a bit of a shambles. Personally not a fan of a wide open space that will just attract those who loiter elsewhere but I do agree with a need to look at overall city traffic management but this plan did not do that.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117713974#Comment_117713974

What on earth did the College Green Plaza have to do with cars? It's bus only. Has been for over 10 years.

tomasrojo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714054#Comment_117714054

If you're talking about the College Green plan, it wasn't shot down in court.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714128#Comment_117714128

is_that_so seems to know next to nothing about the College Green Plaza proposal.

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714012#Comment_117714012

Dont confuse my response as a rebuttal. I was merely pointing out that your post was such an obvious false equivalence that its not worthy of deconstructing or rebutting

alentejo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714042#Comment_117714042

I fully get this. I am all for cycle infrastructure, however the design of the majority of schemes is appalling.

I am not too sure what the alternative this though

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714204#Comment_117714204

I'm obviously one of the slower members on this forum, because I can't really see the false equivalency, I'd appreciate if you'd lay it out for me, and any other posters/readers who may not be able to see it

Flinty997

I don't get it either.

Often the cycle lane (for a variety of reasons) is poor for high speed cycling, or access to where I'm going. In which case I have to use the road.

Very similar to motorways and alternative routes.

A clear example of this is the phoenix park where the cycle lane was often to congested with pedestrian's to use. So you'd use the road.

tomasrojo

We've already had mandatory use of cycle tracks (with no qualification other than they meet the requirement of having the right signage and road markings), and it was removed, because it was unfair, given there were no minimum standards in terms of design or quality, and largely unenforced anyway.

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714504#Comment_117714504

I should point out that I regret the choice of fastest and safest as my desired attributes. What I really want is safest and 'takes the least amount of time', i.e. doesn't necessarily have to be suitable for 30km/h road cyclists, but doesn't - as per @Chiliconkeni's example above - require you to stop multiple times while the parallel road retains priority, or else takes a more direct route compared to motor traffic.

The older Phoenix Park cycle lanes required users to yield at road crossings including car park accesses, while if you stayed on the main road you would have priority. 👎️ However, there was filtered permeability at some points elsewhere in the park, making the cycle route more direct than driving. 👍️

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714081#Comment_117714081

It doesn't but the Keegan plan meant 600 buses each way a day on Parliament Street.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714128#Comment_117714128

And I stand corrected but it was shot down on the basis of its knock-on effects on transport in the city.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117715377#Comment_117715377

doesn't sound that insane to me? one bus on average every minute would be 960 buses a day (based on 16 hours of service) so it depends on whether any would actually be stopping on the street for pickup.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117715440#Comment_117715440

For a street of that size with pinch points at either end it is and it was part of the reason it was rejected. This has been the main issue with the Keegan visions, they just don't work out what to change and how to do so properly before he ploughs on.

tomasrojo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117715410#Comment_117715410

The author of the report by Bord Pleanála dismissed modelling by making single timed journeys by himself or herself and saying the modelling was way wide of the mark. That's not remotely convincing. And the author seemed to think that "induced demand" was a good thing, while it's never used as a good outcome academically, since it means you've spent a lot of money, increased emissions, with ultimately congestion remaining the same.

But whatever faults it had, that was three years ago now. I don't know what plans there are for College Green currently.

tomasrojo

In fact, most of these cases of plans facing obstacles seem to have at the heart of them someone rejecting the idea of traffic evaporation or people switching travel modes.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117716025#Comment_117716025

It did look half-thought out and apparently only designed for cyclists and pedestrians. DB, in particular, raised a lot of objections to it. The plaza bit was about the simplest element, yet they looked like they ignored anything outside of that area and left it up to others to figure out.

tomasrojo

I can't remember enough about it. I just remember the ABP report had some very questionable approaches when it came to statistically representative sampling, and the author felt that people going around the city on the M50 wasn't acceptable, when the journey through the city would take about the same time.