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Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05

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    #782
    joemurt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 132 ✭✭joemurt


    tigger123 wrote: »
    Pretty good explainer here on the IT:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/explainer-the-gp-contract-talks-at-the-centre-of-varadkar-controversy-1.4396706?mode=amp

    By the sounds of things Leo shared the document with the NAGP in an effort to get the deal over the line. Cant see what the personal gain is for him in it.

    Can't see him having to go over this.




    You don't understand how Varadkar would or could benefit personally, professionally or politically for being seen to negotiate a government contract successfully?



    Strange.



    If the GP's had rejected the contract and went on national strike would this benefit or damage Varadkar and Fine Gael?



    This is a criminal matter.


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    #783
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,412 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    But the negotiations were done at that point, so your point in bold doesn't make sense with the facts of the case. I don't think you fully understand the situation, which is understandable because there has been a lot of muck thrown around about it and people are being sensationalist because of who it involves.

    Raids...come on now man in all fairness. Take a step back, review the chain of events and forget that it is Leo. Pretend it is a random person that you have no opinion of one way or the other. What do you actually think a raid is for here?

    He gave an agreed new GP agreement to the president of a body which represented 40% of GPs. Did he go about it the wrong way? Yes, the Department of Health should have officially provided it earlier than he did. Is it a criminal matter? Clearly not.

    Why do you think Leo didn't just email the agreement to his mate from his official email address?


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    #784
    THE_SHEEP
    Registered Users Posts: 230 ✭✭THE_SHEEP


    Floppybits wrote: »
    The FG supporters defence of Varadkar is astounding. According to them its ok to send confidential papers to parties not involved in the talks, dies this mean thats ok for everyone in government send confidential papers to whoever they want? You can bet if this was an FF, Green, SF or any other party then FG would be screaming for a head and the same supporters on here would be looking for blood but because it is Leo ah sure its grand. The hypocrisy is sickening and they know it.

    As for Leo I can't see how he can be trusted by the other parties in the coalition. Questions also need to be asked If he has done this previously or if has done it in this government? If FF and Greens back him they are basically saying to all other government members its ok to leak confidential documents. He will have to make sure he has his ducks lined up and hope that there is nothing else out there that is going to come back and bite him after this.


    Ah , the problem is , you don't understand the situation .

    His behaviors are excusable as he's gay , and the son of an immigrant !!

    ( Wink wink , Nod Nod !! )


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    #785
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    joemurt wrote: »
    You don't understand how Varadkar would or could benefit personally, professionally or politically for being seen to negotiate a government contract successfully?



    Strange.



    If the GP's had rejected the contract and went on national strike would this benefit or damage Varadkar and Fine Gael?



    This is a criminal matter.

    Gas really how you conflate with the government trying to get the other side to agree to a new agreement, by simply providing it to them, is somehow a criminal matter because it could benefit the Government. Of course giving the agreement to the other side would benefit the Government. That's the point.

    How is that criminal? Repeatedly saying it's a criminal matter doesnt make it so, unless you back it up. Even if you type it in bold.


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    #786
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Why do you think Leo didn't just email the agreement to his mate from his official email address?

    Ask Leo.

    Perhaps that's the only final version he had. Not everything needs to have a sinister reason by default.


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    #787
    Floppybits
    Registered Users Posts: 7,542 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Why do you think Leo didn't just email the agreement to his mate from his official email address?

    If the deal was done and made public as the Leo supporters are saying then why didn't Leo just tell his mate where to go to get them or why didn't varadkar just instruct one of his many advisors, aids or civil servants to have his mate sent the details through the proper channels? This defence that they deal was done and was public is not washing then why all this back channel crap?


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    #788
    circadian
    Registered Users Posts: 6,903 ✭✭✭circadian


    I find it interesting that many posters who would usually call fake news, complain about "leftists" etc are taking a story from a left leaning publication and running with it without questioning the accuracy as they would if it were an article about someone further to the right.


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    #789
    Floppybits
    Registered Users Posts: 7,542 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    THE_SHEEP wrote: »
    Ah , the problem is , you don't understand the situation .

    His behaviors are excusable as he's gay , and the son of an immigrant !!

    ( Wink wink , Nod Nod !! )

    Or that its FG and because its FG the rules do not apply to them.


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    #790
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    Floppybits wrote: »
    If the deal was done and made public as the Leo supporters are saying then why didn't Leo just tell his mate where to go to get them or why didn't varadkar just instruct one of his many advisors, aids or civil servants to have his mate sent the details through the proper channels? This defence that they deal was done and was public is not washing then why all this back channel crap?

    The deal had been made public, and a quick search of the IMO website can provide the dates to back that up, but the full text of the agreement had not yet been finalised for distribution, hence why the version that was sent contained the water marks and writing over it.


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    #791
    CruelSummer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,225 ✭✭✭CruelSummer


    Banana Republic 1 wrote: »
    When you joined FG was there a complicated hazing process or just a straight forward animal sacrifice.

    I am usually a FG voter, does that make my arguments less valid than a FF, SF or any other parties? I’m undecided if there was an election tomorrow on who I would support as I don’t agree with lockdown as a strategy to control Covid long term. The money will just run out.


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    #792
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,528 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    Floppybits wrote: »
    You would hope so but after this the question needs to be asked? Everyone who is a member of government will now be looked at to see if this is going on elsewhere especially FG. If the leader of FG thinks its OK to leak confidential documents then the rest must think the same.

    Yes, the broadband issues lost the state millions and forced them to go with the only choice - it’s a much bigger issue in my opinion but it seems like it’s business as usual.

    I just wonder How much confidential information is shared with favored parties or vested interests across all government business.


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    #793
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Of all the things to finish varadkar,never taught it would be plain old-fashioned corruption and cronyism in the end


    He's burnt too many bridges and now other than the most deluded...noone is defending this......even harmless timmy dooley stuck the knife in last night


    Has a single elected member of FG come put publically to back him??

    Intriguing actually, how quite FG TD'S have been, it also let slip (I wonder from whom), that Simon Harris, the actual Health Minister at the time & current "wannabe" health Minister, knew nothing about the offending documents sent to Leo's medical buddy.

    Me thinks Leo has single handily and quite bizzarely burned a lot of bridges, both in his own party and elsewhere, he's clearly on his own in this latest debacle albeit a tiresome pile of nonsense, but yet strangely quite gratifying to see Smug Leo on the defensive.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #794
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    TD paul murphy of all people :eek: outlines this v.well in a statement last night

    Section 7,criminal offences act 2018....an irish offial who uses confidemtial info obtained in course of their office to benefit themselves,or another person is breaking the law

    I don't see how this fits here, given what was provided? I think the likes of Paul Murphy and others need to take a step back here and separate Varadkar from the chain of events. Review the facts in isolation without bringing their opinion of the man into it.


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    #795
    CruelSummer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,225 ✭✭✭CruelSummer


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    TD paul murphy of all people :eek: outlines this v.well in a statement last night

    Section 7,criminal offences act 2018....an irish offial who uses confidemtial info obtained in course of their office to benefit themselves,or another person is breaking the law

    He’s such an upstanding citizen of this country, encouraging protestors to barricade in Joan Burton into a Garda car and all sorts of non peaceful ‘protests’, I wonder did he support people protesting outside Simon Harris’ house when they had a new baby.


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    #796
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Cute Hoor wrote: »
    Good man Joe, is there not a Sinn Fein topic elsewhere for this to be discussed. Why would you want to infiltrate a 'Varadkar leaking Confidential documents' thread with other fluffy stuff, is this the Mount St line.

    Actually can't stand leo and find Fine Gael an insipid party as I find every political party so an accusation of infiltration is baseless. I was replying to a post which posited that the only thing that could be raised to deflect from the Village story is something pointless from months ago. I just said that it is more likely that this could be more likely. Is it not allowed to raise something like that?


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    #797
    joemurt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 132 ✭✭joemurt


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    But the negotiations were done at that point, so your point in bold doesn't make sense with the facts of the case.

    Raids...come on now man in all fairness. Take a step back, review the chain of events and forget that it is Leo. Pretend it is a random person that you have no opinion of one way or the other. What do you actually think a raid is for here?

    He gave an agreed new GP agreement to the president of a body which represented 40% of GPs. Did he go about it the wrong way? Yes, the Department of Health should have officially provided it earlier than he did. Is it a criminal matter? Clearly not.




    The negotiations were not complete and the deal had not been signed off on as has been highlighted repeatedly by the likes of Chambers, Oreilly, Grace Moore and others on twitter. So again you are wrong.



    Golden rule - just because Varadkar says something is x doesn't actually make it x. The negotiations were still active.



    Stop replying in bad faith. You need a mod warning for continually ignoring peoples replies.


    Raids would be appropriate if their is a pattern of criminal behaviour regards goverment or EU documents that are confidential being mishandled. Is there a pattern of Fine Gael mishandling confidential documents? There seems to be. Is it standard practice in FG. One way to find out. Fine Gael is not above the State. Accountability needs to be seen to happen. Starting with the Garda knocking on doors.


    ''Did he go about it the wrong way? Yes'' Yes but no.........untouchables right?.......


  • Options
    #798
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,528 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    CruelSummer wrote: »
    He’s such an upstanding citizen of this country, encouraging protestors to barricade in Joan Burton into a Garda car and all sorts of non peaceful ‘protests’, I wonder did he support people protesting outside Simon Harris’ house when they had a new baby.

    Almost as upstanding as the aforementioned who presided over water taxation and the cervical smear scandal.


  • Options
    #799
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    I don't see how this fits here, given what was provided? I think the likes of Paul Murphy and others need to take a step back here and separate Varadkar from the chain of events. Review the facts in isolation without bringing their opinion of the man into it.

    Leo's response was the act refers to Public Servants, Elected representatives of Dail Eireann are apparently exempt as are not public servants. Whilst possibly correct, quite a Bizzare excuse. I would have thought, albeit not always the case, TDS are supposed to be public servants.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #800
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    CruelSummer wrote: »
    He’s such an upstanding citizen of this country, encouraging protestors to barricade in Joan Burton into a Garda car and all sorts of non peaceful ‘protests’, I wonder did he support people protesting outside Simon Harris’ house when they had a new baby.

    Thats neither here nor there...lad is smashing it out the park,telling it like it is on twitter and cutting swathes through varadkars waffle/lies


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    #801
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,412 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Ask Leo.

    Perhaps that's the only final version he had. Not everything needs to have a sinister reason by default.

    You'd think that he would have explained that in his very long press release yesterday, if there was a non sinister explanation, given that he's had a few days to get his story straight.

    And even if that was the only final version, why do you think that he sent a paper version to a home address, instead of getting it scanned and sent electronically?


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    #802
    Nobotty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭Nobotty


    Cute Hoor wrote: »
    No, the real story here is that Varadkar gave an official Government document marked 'Confidential / not for circulation' to a buddy, simple as.
    Do people not understand the meaning of CONFIDENTIAL
    Do people not understand the meaning of NOT FOR CIRCULATION

    I'll just repeat my question, he gave a copy of the agreement to the then president of an organisation that represented DOUBLE the number of Gp's as the IMO
    Is he not just going to walk into the Dáil Monday and apologise for the method used to share it and then make the point of how great he was for working to get them on board?
    He is after all a narcissist
    What people are also understandably trying to make a point of here is he had no legal authority to do so
    I don't know if he does or if he required the minister for healths permission
    If he did Simon Harris is going to say he gave this
    In fact for all we know Harris couriered the package
    The more I look at it,I think the Village have been stupid here and are exposed, I could be wrong, its just my opinion
    I know its not what some people here will want to hear but I have to say it because it jumps out at me


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    #803
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    joemurt wrote: »
    The negotiations were not complete and the deal had not been signed off on as has been highlighted repeatedly by the likes of Chambers, Oreilly, Grace Moore and others on twitter. So again you are wrong.



    Golden rule - just because Varadkar says something is x doesn't actually make it x. The negotiations were still active.



    Stop replying in bad faith. You need a mod warning for continually ignoring peoples replies.


    Raids would be appropriate if their is a pattern of criminal behaviour regards goverment or EU documents that are confidential being mishandled. Is there a pattern of Fine Gael mishandling confidential documents? There seems to be. Is it standard practice in FG. One way to find out. Fine Gael is not above the State. Accountability needs to be seen to happen. Starting with the Garda knocking on doors.


    ''Did he go about it the wrong way? Yes'' Yes but no.........untouchables right?.......

    You need to calm down a bit. Backseat modding won't go down well on here, so you should probably cut that out if you plan on staying around. Given you are brand new to boards, I can help you out - there is a charter in each forum that should be read and followed.

    Here is the IMO statement from 5 April, confirming an agreement had been reached, prior to the document being shared:

    https://www.imo.ie/news-media/news-press-releases/2019/statement-imo-reaches-210/index.xml

    Want to say I'm wrong again?


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    #804
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    joemurt wrote: »
    The negotiations were not complete and the deal had not been signed off on ...
    They were.

    https://www.imo.ie/news-media/news-press-releases/2019/statement-imo-reaches-210/index.xml

    IMO wrote:
    Statement: IMO reaches €210m deal with Govt for GP services


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    #805
    seligehgit
    Registered Users Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭seligehgit


    Cute Hoor wrote: »
    No, the real story here is that Varadkar gave an official Government document marked 'Confidential / not for circulation' to a buddy, simple as.
    Do people not understand the meaning of CONFIDENTIAL
    Do people not understand the meaning of NOT FOR CIRCULATION

    Totally agree.

    I would in normally be sympathetic to Fine Gael but this is the crux of the issue.

    The conflicting accounts re the timelines needs clarification.

    Leo Varadakar should not have passed on a document confidential/not for circulation irrespective of whither it was at that point in time ( his account/timeline proves correct ) commercially sensitive.

    ""Stephen Donnelly, then in opposition" clearly stated as opposition health spokesperson "he had no sight or copy of the offending document in the Month of April, suggesting the opposite of what Leo stated, namely the document was widely circulated and in the public domain."

    The tanaiste (then Taoiseach) in addition undermined his fellow minister Simon Harris.

    Perplexed as to the motivation behind the leak as NAGPI ( that appears to have folded due to clinical governance issues ) was not an official trade union/negotiating partner ?

    Was this a bit of one upmanship,an internecine warfare between 2 medical respresentative bodies striving to recruit new members?

    NAGPI had 40% of the membership versus 20% in the IMO.

    Or simply bringing the majority of GPs on board?


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    #806
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Yet this deal wasnt published until may 18th?

    Theres no way out,the chap has been suppling his mates with confidential info from his desk and been found out

    Are you claiming the IMO statement from 5 April has been faked?


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    #807
    Cute Hoor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Cute Hoor


    circadian wrote: »
    I find it interesting that many posters who would usually call fake news, complain about "leftists" etc are taking a story from a left leaning publication and running with it without questioning the accuracy as they would if it were an article about someone further to the right.

    Did you not read where Varadkar admitted in his statement yesterday that he gave the official Government document marked 'Confidential / not for circulation' to his buddy, what has that got to do with left, right, centre, whatever, he admitted it


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    #808
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Are you claiming the IMO statement from 5 April has been faked?

    Actually, I think that might be the nub of the problem. Weren’t there two organisations involved? IMO and the one Leo sent the document to?


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    #809
    Bishop of hope
    Registered Users Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Are you claiming the IMO statement from 5 April has been faked?

    Jaez, the losing bidder was sent the contract before the winner?
    Leo got caught out here, there's no deflecting that. Not best practice would be a mild way of putting it.


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    #810
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    Bishop of hope wrote: »
    Jaez, the losing bidder was sent the contract before the winner?
    Leo got caught out here, there's no deflecting that. Not best practice would be a mild way of putting it.

    What do you mean losing bidder? There were no bidders here.


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    #811
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yet this deal wasnt published until may 18th?
    That seems to be correct.

    The deal was done, it's outline was published, but the full detail wasn't published until later.

    The Taoiseach decided to provide the details of the done deal to what was the largest GP representative body (or, if you're in spin mode - his mate).

    I can see a possible misdemeanor here - I'm struggling to see a high crime.


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