Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05

StupidLikeAFox

Sloppy work but there's no real detail on what harm was really caused. Was some negotiation compromised or something like that? Sounds like the deal was done already and there was nothing really to be gained or lost by sharing the document, but I'm open to correction on this

ExMachina1000

Sorolla wrote: »

Coveney already failed a leadership campaign - he will not candidate again.

Simon Harris would be the most popular choice.

Mairead Mc Guinness would also be a very popular choice

Holy mother of god . Are those the choices that are left?

Dank Janniels

Dank Janniels wrote: »

Every opposition TD gona come down like an avalanche of bricks on him next week, not before ofcource deleting their own whatsapps and shredding any "files" they might have lol
It is abit too soon tho for Sinn Fein to be throwing daggers so soon after their own senators shenanagans do ye think?

The shenanigans that resulted in resignations?

weldoninhio

Muahahaha wrote: »

Leo beat Covid on his own and here is the photo opportunity to prove it



Of course that was after he said there would be no photo opportunities of Leos battle against Covid. Then he gets a FG councillor to take his photo and stick it up on Twitter anyway :rolleyes:

Wasn’t a FG photographer that took that. Apparently it was his leak buddy who took it.

Banana Republic 1

stockshares wrote: »

The Journal have a Timeline on the contract negotiations in 2019
https://www.thejournal.ie/leo-varadk...urce=shortlink

Summary
1970
Previous General Medical Services (GMS) contract signed

2008
2008 financial crash. FEMPI legislation cuts funding.

2013,
NAGP formed for doctors after pension pay-outs at the IMO had angered some members. However, the NAGP was not signed up to the framework with the department. It was also not under the umbrella of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

2014
High Court case on related competition issues. IMO determined to be the sole negotiating body on behalf of doctors in a framework agreement with the Department of Health.

August 2016
new contract mooted. Health Minster Simon Harris said he wanted the NAGP involved. The drive to get a new GMS contract faltered

June 28 2018.
New drive for GMS contract following stories that medical card patients were being refused reimbursements for blood tests taken by GPs. Fianna Fáil health spokesperson Stephen Donnelly asked Simon Harris about the matter because the GP negotiations had been ongoing for a number of months. Donnelly said the NAGP had written to the Minister repeatedly “but it cannot even get a letter in response to say when he expects its representatives to be in the room”. It has received one letter from the Government stating that at some point in the future, the Government will engage with the association.”


6 February 2019
Senator Colm Burke told Harris at an Oireachtas Health Committee hearing that members of NAGP would be protesting later that day as they did not feel part of the ongoing negotiating process. Harris said it was a “fair point” but that his department engages with the IMO on contractual matters.

3 April 2019
talks concluded on Wednesday, with the new GP contract agreed between the IMO, Department of Health and HSE.

Friday, 5 April
IMO issued a press release which announced details of the negotiated agreement

Saturday, 6 April
The above-mentioned statement was issued by government with Varadkar and Harris welcoming the agreement with the IMO. The release did not contain much granular detail about what the draft contract contained.

Between 11-16 April 2019
The then-Taoiseach provided a copy of the full agreement to Dr Maitiu Ó Tuathail, president of the NAGP.

16 April 2019
a debate on General Practitioner Contractual Reform took place in the Dáil. During the same debate, the Fianna Fáil health spokesperson (and now Minister for Health) Stephen Donnelly said it was good to get some detail of the deal, given that the exercise had been very frustrating to date.
He raised concerns, as did other party spokespeople including Labour’s Alan Kelly, Social Democrats’ Róisín Shortall and Sinn Féin’s Louise O’Reilly, that they had not seen sight of the agreement ahead of the debate.
“The outline of the deal was agreed about two weeks ago. The GPs have not seen it, the public have not seen it, and we have not seen it. We are being given pages of facts and figures now. We have not seen them before. I have asked the Department for them and I have asked the HSE. We have been denied access to any of the detail. We are sort of expected to stand up here now and respond,” Donnelly said at the time.
Donnelly said health spokespeople for the political parties should have had the information on the deal ahead of time, “days in advance”, he said, adding:
In fact, we should have had it the day after it was agreed with the IMO.” Sinn Féin’s Louise O’Reilly said during the debate that the deal was done two weeks ago, saying “it is unfortunate that I did not have more detail in advance of the debate”.
However, former Independent TD and GP Michael Harty revealed he had seen more details of the deal.
The County Clare deputy told the Dáil he had a copy of the agreement in his possession, and said the agreement was “still under discussion at IMO meetings”.
“I may have an advantage, being an IMO member, in that I have in my possession a document which outlines, in broad brush strokes, what is contained in the agreement,” he said. Former Wexford TD Mick Wallace said during the debate:

“Only 20% of GPs are IMO members, 40% are members of the NAGP, while 40% are not members of any union. This new contract has been negotiated without the input of the vast majority of GPs or their representative bodies. The vast majority of GPs have still not seen the new GP contract. Only one-in-five GPs have seen the contract via the IMO.”
The health minister clarified at the end of the debate that GPs had begun a process of intense consultation, which took place in Dublin the night previous.

17 May 2019.
The Department of Health published the entire text of the IMO deal.

22 May 2019
Results of the ballot of IMO members were announced with 95% of GP members of the IMO across the country supporting the signing of the contract.

A the classic Stephan Donnelly spoof, regurgitate in chronological what we all know happened so as to run out the clock and avoid answering questions

Banana Republic 1

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I believe there is more to come on this story. Leo knew about this story breaking early last week. He has been quiet.

I guess the first move will be a vote of no confidence next week.

I don't think FF, FG or Green can afford an election now. The public are too angry about restrictions.

It's a pity really because he is one of the few capable politicians in both FF and FG. Their talent pool is quite shocking now.
He will more than likely leave politics if forced to resign.

He is a cross between a show pony and a publicity hound.

Augme

Arghus wrote: »

This could go either way - he might brazen it out, thinking that there's enough else going on that eventually the public will stop being all that interested and even if there's a fuss kicked up by the opposition and even members of government it'll eventually blow over. In a sense, I think the story of the leaking of documents might not capture the attention of the public - it's not exactly Watergate. It's not inconceivable that the morass of the daily political news cycle will move on.

The big problem is it will be much harder for him to brazen it out in a coalition government. Fianna fail will be absolutely licking their lips at this and it would be a huge benefit for them for him to have to resign given how their tenure in government has been so far. They'll see this as a chance to even things up a bit. The Greens are already in a lot of trouble and can't afford to look weak on this either.

tigger123

Pretty good explainer here on the IT:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/explainer-the-gp-contract-talks-at-the-centre-of-varadkar-controversy-1.4396706?mode=amp

By the sounds of things Leo shared the document with the NAGP in an effort to get the deal over the line. Cant see what the personal gain is for him in it.

Can't see him having to go over this.

tigger123

Augme wrote: »

The big problem is it will be much harder for him to brazen it out in a coalition government. Fianna fail will be absolutely licking their lips at this and it would be a huge benefit for them for him to have to resign given how their tenure in government has been so far. They'll see this as a chance to even things up a bit. The Greens are already in a lot of trouble and can't afford to look weak on this either.

And what if FG back him (which they more than likely will)? Can you see FF collapsing the government because of it?

AndrewJRenko

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Sloppy work but there's no real detail on what harm was really caused. Was some negotiation compromised or something like that? Sounds like the deal was done already and there was nothing really to be gained or lost by sharing the document, but I'm open to correction on this

If that were true, Leo, or more appropriately Harris as line Minister could have published the agreement, not send a paper copy marked not for circulation ' to his mate's house, when his mate works for an organization that is about to collapse as a result of poor governance.

Gooey Looey

tigger123 wrote: »

Pretty good explainer here on the IT:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/explainer-the-gp-contract-talks-at-the-centre-of-varadkar-controversy-1.4396706?mode=amp

By the sounds of things Leo shared the document with the NAGP in an effort to get the deal over the line. Cant see what the personal gain is for him in it.

Can't see him having to go over this.

Why didn't he do it through the proper channels and above board?

Nobotty

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Sloppy work but there's no real detail on what harm was really caused. Was some negotiation compromised or something like that? Sounds like the deal was done already and there was nothing really to be gained or lost by sharing the document, but I'm open to correction on this

This is the thing
In fact it could be argued that the purpose of giving the president of the Nagp a full copy was to bring their members on board
Many are also members of the IMO and most would be discussing whether it was enough to sign
It wasn't leaked to a newspaper
It should have been sent via formal channels strictly speaking but that doesn't always go on and no more is heard about it
There's another obvious story here
Why did the person giving the village these WhatsApps wait nearly a year and a half to do so?

tigger123

Gooey Looey wrote: »

Why didn't he do it through the proper channels and above board?

Leo will have to explain that.

I wouldnt think it's that unusual where negotiations are almost finalised with one professional body, that the derails are shared with another one where the agreement is going to have a massive impact memberships of both.

Augme

tigger123 wrote: »

And what if FG back him (which they more than likely will)? Can you see FF collapsing the government because of it?

There will be plenty in FG (simon coveney and his supporters for example) who will also be very interested in seeing how this plays out and will be very happy to be rid of Leo too. FF won't collapse the government but they will use it to beat leo and FG with. FG tds will then start to wonder if losing significant public support is worth it for the sake of leo's ego.

JeffKenna

tigger123 wrote: »

Leo will have to explain that.

I wouldnt think it's that unusual where negotiations are almost finalised with one professional body, that the derails are shared with another one where the agreement is going to have a massive impact memberships of both.

To be fair, Leo always delivers.

History Queen

tigger123 wrote: »

Leo will have to explain that.

I wouldnt think it's that unusual where negotiations are almost finalised with one professional body, that the derails are shared with another one where the agreement is going to have a massive impact memberships of both.

Jesus I'd hope leaking negotiations with a recognised union with anyone outside those talks would be absolutely unusual.

Fuascailteoir

tigger123 wrote: »

Leo will have to explain that.

I wouldnt think it's that unusual where negotiations are almost finalised with one professional body, that the derails are shared with another one where the agreement is going to have a massive impact memberships of both.

Both memberships should have been included from the start. The way it had worked out now casts a long shadow over him. Not to mention the comments regarding refugees but I wouldn't think many would be too shocked about that nor care less

AndrewJRenko

Nobotty wrote: »

This is the thing
In fact it could be argued that the purpose of giving the president of the Nagp a full copy was to bring their members on board
Many are also members of the IMO and most would be discussing whether it was enough to sign
It wasn't leaked to a newspaper
It should have been sent via formal channels strictly speaking but that doesn't always go on and no more is heard about it
There's another obvious story here
Why did the person giving the village these WhatsApps wait nearly a year and a half to do so?

It's not the Taoiseach's job to get anyone on board. He undermined his Minister for Health by doing a favour for a mate.

If he was really concerned about bringing docs on board, he could have published it, so that the 60% of docs who weren't in his mate's soon-to-collapse organization with poor governance.

Bubbaclaus

History Queen wrote: »

Jesus I'd hope leaking negotiations with a recognised union with anyone outside those talks would be absolutely unusual.

I'm sure if the ASTI had negotiated an agreement with the Government for all teachers and Leo had then given a copy of that agreement to the TUI there would be no story.

The only reason there is a story here is because the NAGP were never given official status to represent GPs, despite the GPs in their membership being double that of the IMO. The real story here is why NAGP werent given a seat at the table for the earlier negotiations, not why were they given a copy once it was done.

CruelSummer

The question is why leak this story and now? Ever since Leo went against NPHET & Tony Holohan - the media have been out for him. It’s almost like it’s coordinated...between mainstream media attacks & twitter hashtags. This so called scandal is a practice rife with every single elected politician in the Dáil - why him & why now?

We need Leo in Government, he has more medical knowledge than his cabinet counterparts & is good at steering a ship through a crisis. The amount of begrudgers towards him is truly Irish.
People actually suggesting Mary Lou, Michael Martin or even Harris etc would be a safe pair of hands through this is baffling. Three leaders incapable of making any proper decisions without NPHET ‘guiding’ the way. This is absolutely what we do not need right now.

_Brian

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Sloppy work but there's no real detail on what harm was really caused. Was some negotiation compromised or something like that? Sounds like the deal was done already and there was nothing really to be gained or lost by sharing the document, but I'm open to correction on this

Being held accountable for breaking the law or doing wrong isn’t about why harm was caused.

To take a simpler example you can’t just drive round with no insurance and use the “no harm was done” when stopped by a guard.

It seems while there was an announcement that a deal was struck the details were being kept secret. Leo intentionality leaked these details to further his own agenda.

I can’t see how he can weather this out. More to the case I can’t see how the greens can continue to support him as leader of a coalition party soon to be Taoiseach again.

AndrewJRenko

Fuascailteoir wrote: »

Both memberships should have been included from the start.

You can't negotiate with an unlicensed trade union. The Dept Health had a communication channel with NAGP.

tigger123

Augme wrote: »

There will be plenty in FG (simon coveney and his supporters for example) who will also be very interested in seeing how this plays out and will be very happy to be rid of Leo too. FF won't collapse the government but they will use it to beat leo and FG with. FG tds will then start to wonder if losing significant public support is worth it for the sake of leo's ego.

Will they lose significant public support over this though? Or will it be over and done with by Wednesday?

I cant see this leading to a heave against Leo in FG, but that remains to be seen.

Not directed at you, but I think a lot of people who dont like Leo (which they're obviously entitled to do) is clouding their perception of what's happening here, and the political reality of it.

dresden8

Leo says the story is true but then says it's defamatory.

What the actual fnck?

zanador

CruelSummer wrote: »

The question is why leak this story and now? Ever since Leo went against NPHET & Tony Holohan - the media have been out for him. It’s almost like it’s coordinated...between mainstream media attacks & twitter hashtags. This so called scandal is a practice rife with every single elected politician in the Dáil - why him & why now?

We need Leo in Government, he has more medical knowledge than his cabinet counterparts & is good at steering a ship through a crisis. The amount of begrudgers towards him is truly Irish.
People actually suggesting Mary Lou, Michael Martin or even Harris etc would be a safe pair of hands through this is baffling. Three leaders incapable of making any proper decisions without NPHET ‘guiding’ the way. This is absolutely what we do not need right now.

I think because he is a Dr and a friend that he sat on it wondering what to do and then finally it was too much. He probably hears stuff we don't from what went in during Leo's time as minister for health and if he's in his network other stuff. And from frontline healthcare worker staff the pressure just be immense, and as a doctor to see the handling of the pandemic and Leo going against nphet purely for ego and economy it must have stung.

Bishop of hope

_Brian wrote: »

Being held accountable for breaking the law or doing wrong isn’t about why harm was caused.

To take a simpler example you can’t just drive round with no insurance and use the “no harm was done” when stopped by a guard.

It seems while there was an announcement that a deal was struck the details were being kept secret. Leo intentionality leaked these details to further his own agenda.

I can’t see how he can weather this out. More to the case I can’t see how the greens can continue to support him as leader of a coalition party soon to be Taoiseach again.

Indeed the pressure will be put on the Greens in cabinet over this by their own membership again I'd say.
Leo's pomposity knows no bounds, I'm the big cheese, look at this.
It's been his biggest failing always.

ThunbergsAreGo

tigger123 wrote: »

Will they lose significant public support over this though? Or will it be over and done with by Wednesday?

I cant see this leading to a heave against Leo in FG, but that remains to be seen.

Not directed at you, but I think a lot of people who dont like Leo (which they're obviously entitled to do) is clouding their perception of what's happening here, and the political reality of it.

Pretty much, those that don't like him will continue not to do so. Those that do, will continue to like him.

And those that don't care will continue not to care. This won't change anyone's opinion of him.

AndrewJRenko

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I'm sure if the ASTI had negotiated an agreement with the Government for all teachers and Leo had then given a copy of that agreement to the TUI there would be no story.

The only reason there is a story here is because the NAGP were never given official status to represent GPs, despite the GPs in their membership being double that of the IMO. The real story here is why NAGP werent given a seat at the table for the earlier negotiations, not why were they given a copy once it was done.

The real answer to your real question is
1) because they didn't have a negotiating license
2) because they were dodgy as hell
https://www.businesspost.ie/news-focus/odce-launches-criminal-investigation-into-doctors-group-0ee1cfb8

wirelessdude01

Did any FG TD or senator release a statement fully backing Leo yesterday?

ThunbergsAreGo

zanador wrote: »

Leo going against nphet purely for ego and economy it must have stung.

Level 3 is why we are seeing a drop in numbers, it appears Leo may have been right.