Three dead as woman beheaded in France

440Hertz

Limpy wrote: »

Neo liberalism and Islam together are a bad mix for any western culture.

France is neoliberal now? That's news to me.

Generally it's probably the most non-neoliberal country in Europe, with a tendency towards big-state, high taxes and lots of regulation.

France, since the revolution, has defined itself as a secular republic.
It may not have always stuck to that, but that's how the country sees itself and what it's built on.

They stood up against the tyranny of the monarchy and the Catholic Church imposing its will and it's a very different cultural context in many respects to here or the UK in that regard. In both cases (as in much of Europe) the concept of secularism is a bit fuzzier.

They really take their secular heritage very seriously. So the concept of a religion trying to impose its will on the state, beyond just people's private beliefs, is something that isn't going to work. They're not anti-religious, but they take the concept of religion being a private matter and not something to impose on someone else very, very seriously.

Gradius

Amirani wrote: »

Yep, lots of truth in this.

Hence why it makes no sense for people to go around trying to justify it by saying people shouldn't be drawing cartoons or "looking for trouble". The problem here isn't Muslims, or even Islam itself. It's a minority of headcases that are waiting for some sort of slight or trigger to do something like this.

I don't agree at all.

To turn a phrase on its head, you don't have fire without smoke. There's an underlying element to this that pervades.

Tony EH

Pretzill wrote: »

Actually no there's isn't. And I never said it would be easy, just I think people need to see something is being done.

Pretzill wrote: »

Who said anything about psychopaths? Psychopaths don't often have a reason - these people do, it should be easy enough to spot who is extreme in their religious beliefs - you infiltrate, you use intelligence. Also, another thing which may help is to stop the focus on political correctness and cultural appropriation for the sake of excusing something illegal or murderous.

You, literally, said it should be easy.

suicide_circus

deBeauvoir wrote: »

If people haven't noticed we are moving more towards a social decomcray that is multicultural. If we are to succeed in this, we must respect each others differences and handle them with care.

Criticizing the existance of God in an intelligent and decent manner is one thing, but mocking it is childish, unkind and unproductive to democracy as you accomplish nothing but further tensions between groups which threatens democracy. The people who draw these pictures consciously know that they're provoking muslims hoping that they'll respond violently so as to villify them and promote right wing policies off the backs of these tragedies.

We don't allow people to do blackface anymore under the guise of freedom of expression and rightfully so! We do not want to incite the black community and cause riots and deteriorate race relations.

Do you teach your kids to think critically about God and dicuss it in an intelligent and decent manner, or do you teach them to just mock it so that they can develop a sense of superiority.

Part of being a decent person is to act maturely and compassionate towards these issues. To go on stage in a democracy to mock the others and their beliefs is unbecoming and is something that Donald Trump would do - which is not a good development for democracy!

Seriously, what does mocking accomplish towards peace and unity for our society and democracy.

You are a disgrace. Mocking bad ideas is central to our way of life. And the ideas being mocked when a cartoon of Mohammed is shown are demonstrably insane. Youre sentiments are degraded and pathetic.

Limpy

440Hertz wrote: »

France is neoliberal now? That's news to me.
Generally it's probably the most non-neoliberal country in Europe, with a tendency towards big-state, high taxes and lots of regulation.

Neo liberalism,.as in the group's working hand over fist to open borders, rescue migrants in boat's ect. How many group's with Powerful Media platform's and Money from the likes of George Soros foundations are in operation. They along with radial Islamic beliefs are the problem ( funded by Western allies mind you) SA ect.

440Hertz

Limpy wrote: »

Neo liberalism,.as in the group's working hand over fist to open borders, rescue migrants in boat's ect. ....

That's not neoliberalism. It's altruistic humanitarianism, based on trying to reach out and help people and seeing good will in fellow humans.

Europe in particular has very high ideals about humanitarianism and human rights, due to what happened in the recent past.

The values that Europe has stood for since WWII ended, particularly things like the concept of universal human rights, are hugely positive.

We need to be carful, but at the same time we also don’t need to go down the route of regressing to hardline nationalism either.

There’s a balance between security and humanitarianism.

Pretzill

deBeauvoir wrote: »

If people haven't noticed we are moving more towards a social decomcray that is multicultural. If we are to succeed in this, we must respect each others differences and handle them with care.

Seriously, what does mocking accomplish towards peace and unity for our society and democracy.

Great first post. What an absolute load of twaddle, it is this rhetoric that excuses these heinous acts of violence. Blackface has nothing to do with religious belief, it's offensive because of the way it was used historically. Mocking religion is a sign of a nations maturity. Unfortunatley it is diatribe like this which wants to pull us back towards the dark ages.

Strazdas

Gradius wrote: »

It's far more insidious than you portray.

Just one example, the former Malaysian prime minister declaring unabashedly that it's perfectly okay to kill millions of French people.

Who is he talking to?

Where does his mandate come from?

Who secretly adheres to those same beliefs?

Who, amongst the "peaceful" millions of Muslims in Europe, tacitly condone and encourage and aid murder of Europeans?

Who will smile at you in public and wish you dead behind closed doors?

We'll never know, but these people have an audience, and a significant one. And that says a lot.

That is a somewhat separate issue. There are an estimated 20 million Muslims living in the EU. Clearly the numbers involved in violence are an absolutely tiny fraction of this.

Incidentally there are plenty of right wing / far right leaning racist and bigot types who will smile at Muslims and black people in public and "wish them dead behind closed doors" : that is a two way street.

Das Reich

Nekarsulm wrote: »

If people don't like living in a Republic where Church and State are separate, and freedom of expression allowed, there are many other countries more suited to their mind set.
France would be happy to see them go.

To see who go? The native French that is the minority (at least on the bigger cities)? I think other European countries don't need liberal left wing French people that proved to be a disgrace to their country.

Limpy

440Hertz wrote: »

That's not neoliberalism. It's altruistic humanitarianism, based on trying to reach out and help people and seeing good will in fellow humans.

Europe in particular has very high ideals about humanitarianism and human rights, due to what happened in the recent past. So, it's not

And the payback for this is beheadings, shootings and Bombs.

Amirani

deBeauvoir wrote: »

If people haven't noticed we are moving more towards a social decomcray that is multicultural. If we are to succeed in this, we must respect each others differences and handle them with care.

Criticizing the existance of God in an intelligent and decent manner is one thing, but mocking it is childish, unkind and unproductive to democracy as you accomplish nothing but further tensions between groups which threatens democracy. The people who draw these pictures consciously know that they're provoking muslims hoping that they'll respond violently so as to villify them and promote right wing policies off the backs of these tragedies.

We don't allow people to do blackface anymore under the guise of freedom of expression and rightfully so! We do not want to incite the black community and cause riots and deteriorate race relations.

Do you teach your kids to think critically about God and dicuss it in an intelligent and decent manner, or do you teach them to just mock it so that they can develop a sense of superiority.

Part of being a decent person is to act maturely and compassionate towards these issues. To go on stage in a democracy to mock the others and their beliefs is unbecoming and is something that Donald Trump would do - which is not a good development for democracy!

Seriously, what does mocking accomplish towards peace and unity for our society and democracy.

So you don't like satire then. Grand.

jam_mac_jam

deBeauvoir wrote: »

If people haven't noticed we are moving more towards a social decomcray that is multicultural. If we are to succeed in this, we must respect each others differences and handle them with care.

Criticizing the existance of God in an intelligent and decent manner is one thing, but mocking it is childish, unkind and unproductive to democracy as you accomplish nothing but further tensions between groups which threatens democracy. The people who draw these pictures consciously know that they're provoking muslims hoping that they'll respond violently so as to villify them and promote right wing policies off the backs of these tragedies.

We don't allow people to do blackface anymore under the guise of freedom of expression and rightfully so! We do not want to incite the black community and cause riots and deteriorate race relations.

Do you teach your kids to think critically about God and dicuss it in an intelligent and decent manner, or do you teach them to just mock it so that they can develop a sense of superiority.

Part of being a decent person is to act maturely and compassionate towards these issues. To go on stage in a democracy to mock the others and their beliefs is unbecoming and is something that Donald Trump would do - which is not a good development for democracy!

Seriously, what does mocking accomplish towards peace and unity for our society and democracy.

Blackface is not illegal so I am not sure how we don't allow it. Maybe it would fall under harassment laws I'm not sure.

In a democracy you have a right to offend people, you have a right to mock.

Yes ideally we should all respect each other and be nice but part of a democracy is allowing ideas you don't like. Which includes mocking religion.

Nobody has a right not to be offended.

Gradius

Strazdas wrote: »

That is a somewhat separate issue. There are an estimated 20 million Muslims living in the EU. Clearly the numbers involved in violence are an absolutely tiny fraction of this.

Incidentally there are plenty of right wing / far right leaning racist and bigot types who will smile at Muslims and black people in public and "wish them dead behind closed doors" : that is a two way street.

It is 100% connected. There is a significant audience of Muslims living in Europe that like the messages of "killing millions of French people is okay".

You don't get a prime minister, of all things, speaking out publicly to a handful of nuts. No, there are many more listening and nodding in agreement.

When there's a trend of immigrant Irish Catholics beheading Muslims in mosques in Pakistan, for the sole reason that they are Muslims, then you can get back to me with the "what about" stuff.

completedit

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Blackface is not illegal so I am not sure how we don't allow it. Maybe it would fall under harassment laws I'm not sure.

In a democracy you have a right to offend people, you have a right to mock.

Yes ideally we should all respect each other and be nice but part of a democracy is allowing ideas you don't like. Which includes mocking religion.

Nobody has a right not to be offended.

It doesn't achieve anything. It's not funny or edgy, none of our lives are better because the prophet Muhammad is depicted in a picture.
So many aspects of life are restricted for the greater good and this is one of those cases. Ideally everything would be fair game but sometimes there will be taboos and this is one of them.

440Hertz

440Hertz wrote: »

That's not neoliberalism. It's altruistic humanitarianism, based on trying to reach out and help people and seeing good will in fellow humans.

Europe in particular has very high ideals about humanitarianism and human rights, due to what happened in the recent past.

The values that Europe has stood for since WWII ended, particularly things like the concept of universal human rights, are hugely positive.

We need to be carful, but at the same time we also don’t need to go down the route of regressing to hardline nationalism either.

There’s a balance between security and humanitarianism.

The problem with the emotional humanitarian argument is that Europe can't logistically cope with infinite waves of refugees. Nobody is saying reject them all either, but if you can't take everyone, you need to come to an agreement on how many can be taken. If politicians came up with an annual number of migrants, and stuck to that, then most people wouldn't have a problem.

The worst example I can think of is Merkel giving hope to millions of migrants in 2015. Several hundred rapes and violent assaults later German is quietly deporting them by the planeload but nobody is talking about it because it hurts the feeelz.

ZeroThreat

Strazdas wrote: »

Tens of millions of Muslims are living peacefully in Europe. The numbers involved in terrorist acts are absolutely tiny : we're talking 0.00001% or something. The ones that resort to violence are often unstable misfits, sometimes with suicidal tendencies. Dying in a hail of police bullets is an easier way of checking out of this life than doing it to themselves.

0.00001% is one hundred thousanth of a percent, or one in 10 million.

I'd hazard a guess the numbers involved in extremist terrorism are higher than 2 people. (given that the muslim population of the EU is about 20million)

More likely at least a few percent. (if you include the support network for these terrorist cells and the most radicalised fanatics)

DelaneyIn

(ANSA) - ROME, OCT 29 - Brahim A, a 25-year-old Tunisian who killed a man and two women at a church in Nice Thursday, beheading one of the women, landed at the Italian island of Lampedusa, Italian security sources said, confirming reports from the French city.

Another Tunisian, Anis Amri, arrived at Lampedusa as a minor in 2011 and went on to kill 12 people in a truck attack on a Berlin Christmas market in 2016.

https://www.ansa.it/english/news/world/2020/10/29/nice-killer-landed-at-lampedusa_fc80c0d5-f71d-4ed7-9f73-a9c1d71f317f.html

Again, many warned that this was inevitably going to happen. Those helping illegal immigrants land in Europe, including many Irish NGOs, must be arrested for aiding and abetting illegal immigration and human trafficking.

They have a lot of blood on their hands. As do all who support open borders. This Islamist would never have been in France if not for their help and support.

Limpy

DelaneyIn wrote: »

https://www.ansa.it/english/news/world/2020/10/29/nice-killer-landed-at-lampedusa_fc80c0d5-f71d-4ed7-9f73-a9c1d71f317f.html

Again, many warned that this was inevitably going to happen. Those helping illegal immigrants land in Europe, including many Irish NGOs, must be arrested for aiding and abetting illegal immigration and human trafficking.


They have a lot of blood on their hands. As do all who support open borders. This Islamist would never have been in France if not for their help and support.

440hertz this is the outcome of being a soft lefty.

Spanish Eyes

I thought I read somewhere that the murderer was Tunisian, same as that truck driver murderer on the Promenade des Anglais. Tunisia has a complicated post colonial relationship with France, just like Algeria. There are a lot of Tunisians living in France now.

What a disgusting act. But my words won't solve anything. No one has the answers now that the stable door has been open for so long.

440Hertz

DelaneyIn wrote: »

https://www.ansa.it/english/news/world/2020/10/29/nice-killer-landed-at-lampedusa_fc80c0d5-f71d-4ed7-9f73-a9c1d71f317f.html

Again, many warned that this was inevitably going to happen. Those helping illegal immigrants land in Europe, including many Irish NGOs, must be arrested for aiding and abetting illegal immigration and human trafficking.

They have a lot of blood on their hands. As do all who support open borders. This Islamist would never have been in France if not for their help and support.

I doubt that to be quite honest, particularly given that France has very recent history as the colonial power in a large number of predominantly Islamic countries, notably in North Africa, which is where the majority of the French Islamic community comes from.

suicide_circus

completedit wrote: »

It doesn't achieve anything. It's not funny or edgy, none of our lives are better because the prophet Muhammad is depicted in a picture.
So many aspects of life are restricted for the greater good and this is one of those cases. Ideally everything would be fair game but sometimes there will be taboos and this is one of them.

Get this into your head; the problem here is not that someone has been "insulting", it's that on being insulted people are sawing through the necks of other people. This is the type of mindset that people are expected to overcome aged 2 and a half. Making ANY kind of excuse is ****ing despicable.

Spanish Eyes

Cross post with yours DelaneyIn.

completedit

completedit wrote: »

It doesn't achieve anything. It's not funny or edgy, none of our lives are better because the prophet Muhammad is depicted in a picture.
So many aspects of life are restricted for the greater good and this is one of those cases. Ideally everything would be fair game but sometimes there will be taboos and this is one of them.

Absolutely disagree.

My life is better because I have the freedom to say what I want and to depict who I want.

There is no "greater good" in restricting my freedoms in order to prevent murdering animals from beheading me.

That is literally appeasement.

In the western world, it is not illegal to depict mohammad or drink alcohol.

In many places the middle east it is illegal to drink alcohol and to depict mohammad.

Do you believe the guys in those parts of the middle east should be willing to accept western beliefs and traditions? Or is it just we should be mindful of not offending the lunatics in case they kill us?

Strazdas

ZeroThreat wrote: »

0.00001% is one hundred thousanth of a percent, or one in 10 million.

I'd hazard a guess the numbers involved in extremist terrorism are higher than 2 people. (given that the muslim population of the EU is about 20million)

More likely at least a few percent. (if you include the support network for these terrorist cells and the most radicalised fanatics)

How many Islamist terrorist attacks have there been in Europe in the last two years? That would tell us that the overwhelming number of the 20 million Muslims are living peacefully and are not engaged in terrorism.

The IRA carried out far more killings in Europe than Islamist terrorists have (400 estimated murders by ISIS types since 2006).

breezy1985

Das Reich wrote: »

To see who go? The native French that is the minority (at least on the bigger cities)? I think other European countries don't need liberal left wing French people that proved to be a disgrace to their country.

The French are not a minority in any French city

jam_mac_jam

completedit wrote: »

It doesn't achieve anything. It's not funny or edgy, none of our lives are better because the prophet Muhammad is depicted in a picture.
So many aspects of life are restricted for the greater good and this is one of those cases. Ideally everything would be fair game but sometimes there will be taboos and this is one of them.

Speech doesn't have to be funny, edgy or achieve anything. It doesn't have to make our lives better.

I don't agree that the restriction of the freedom of speech is for the greater good or to enforce taboos. I admire France and its attitude to secularism and freedom of speech.

Who decides on the taboo? I may not agree with the cartoon but I am not going to restrict it.

The greater good is that we live in a democracy which allows the freedom of ideas and that's very important in my opinion.

Gradius

Other, thankfully thwarted, attacks in Avignon and Lyon.

These other stories are obviously garnering attention from the disgrace in Notre Dame.

But it does make you wonder, naturally, how much violence is being committed on a day to day basis in France now that received no attention?

There's the ever-useful mandate to suppress knowledge of this trend. It's not a conspiracy theory, quite simply matter of fact.

The answer is obvious of course, but you still ask yourself just what in the hell has happened to France?

TomTomTim

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolutely disagree.

My life is better because I have the freedom to say what I want and to depict who I want.

There is no "greater good" in restricting my freedoms in order to prevent murdering animals from beheading me.

That is literally appeasement.

In the western world, it is not illegal to depict mohammad or drink alcohol.

In many places the middle east it is illegal to drink alcohol and to depict mohammad.

Do you believe the guys in those parts of the middle east should be willing to accept western beliefs and traditions? Or is it just we should be mindful of not offending the lunatics in case they kill us?

Calling him a pedophile is a crime though. The EU agreed with the ruling too. I honestly struggle to see how anyone thinks an institution that constantly facilitates mass immigration, and restricts our freedoms, is a good one.

Gradius

Strazdas wrote: »

How many Islamist terrorist attacks have there been in Europe in the last two years? That would tell us that the overwhelming number of the 20 million Muslims are living peacefully and are not engaged in terrorism.

The IRA carried out far more killings in Europe than Islamist terrorists have (400 estimated murders by ISIS types since 2006).

So who is the former prime minister of Malaysia speaking to?

Are you saying that a person of such standing is going out of his way to speak to 8 people?

Can you explain that?

440Hertz

I agree, you can’t just give in to volent bullies trying to push an ideology.

This isn’t about a simple issue like your average terrorist group, often just looking for independence or fighting over tangible things like territorial disputes. Rather this is about imposing an ideology and a notion that they can impose a very odd and extreme view of Islamic law on populations that have nothing to do with them.

If you allow yourself to be bullied into censoring everyone else to prevent an tiny and unrepresentative bunch of psychopaths, who probably live on the internet primarily, deciding to go around killing random people, you’re just empowering them and the set of taboos will extend and extend and extend.