More people believing Conspiracy theories

katiek102010

katiek102010 wrote: »

Seriously do the conspiracy theorists not realise they have their own forum.

I'm off,

Don't use all the tinfoil, the rest of us need it for Christmas dinner

Nite all

ShatterAlan wrote: »

And there go the ad hominems.

At least the other people in the thread actually somewhat examine the conspiracies before dismissing them. I don't think 'katiek102010' would have that ability

ShatterAlan

a_squirrelman wrote: »

Well this turned into an actual conspiracy thread, can we have it moved?

No...let's NOT have it moved. You want to trashcan a legitimate discussion because ... well...you just want to?


Nobody on here is spouting rubbish about alien abductions or lizard people or any of that other muck that is used to besmirch those with a legitimate doubt about official narratives. So if this discussion sits ill with you then step off.



But you don't get to decide what can be discussed and what can't.

dxhound2005

ShatterAlan wrote: »

No...let's NOT have it moved. You want to trashcan a legitimate discussion because ... well...you just want to?


Nobody on here is spouting rubbish about alien abductions or lizard people or any of that other muck that is used to besmirch those with a legitimate doubt about official narratives. So if this discussion sits ill with you then step off.



But you don't get to decide what can be discussed and what can't.

What do you mean by a legitimate doubt? Why is it not legitimate to doubt the official narrative about lizard people. Lots of people believe the official narrative is a conspiracy.

ShatterAlan

Pinch Flat wrote: »

My own take in people who believe in conspiracy theories is that they generally seem to be poorly educated and struggle to work out fact from fiction. Mix in a bit of gullibility as well and you're there. A conspiracy theory gives them an easy explanation for what's going on and who's to blame.

two lads I was in school with - neither of whom would have shined academically - are all of a sudden all over covid. Real experts. "It's a flu", "A scamdemic", "Only sheeple wear masks","de hospitals are empty". A lot of their linked stuff on FB would originate in the UK far right / fascists - EDL etc. One posted a meme the other night about people fighting on d-day while we hide behind sofas wearing masks. I didn't want to point out that Ireland was neutral in WW2 but thats the level of ignorance you're dealing with. But hey they're true irish patriots at the end of the day.

A lot of their posts pre covid would have been anti-Muslims/ foreigners ("Ireland is for de irish"), anti water rates and also de homeless (I could see no evidence on line of their volunteerism/ fund raising on their part despite been so into it.)

And what's you take on The Gulf Of Tonkin incident? A fake attack that never occurred but ushered in the escalation of the Vietnam War. Many a smart person saw that for the subterfuge that it was to further a political agenda.



Again you are trying to connect those with a very healthy and well-founded skepticism with idiots.


The best way to deflect from a legitimate and possible crime is to connect the doubters with absurdity. Consequently people either keep their mouths shut for fear of being painted as nutcases.


Personally I didn't believe a shred of what came out of the Saville Inquiry into the Bloody Sunday Massacre. That doesn't mean that I am convinced of moving statues or Faces On Mars. But it was quite convenient to connect the two in order to ridicule my authentic doubts. And that's what has been happening for years now.



If you doubt a narrative.......you're some nut who believes in moguls eating babies.


If you don't adhere to anti-Muslim hate speech......you're a terrorist sympathiser.


If you question the morality and efficacy of the death penalty.......you want rapists and murderers to be given a hug.


It goes on, and on, and on.

Capt'n Midnight

The big conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theories are controlled by those who keep useful idiots busy working for them.

Look at the Kennedys and Anti-Vax. There's bound to be a selfish financial or political angle there.

ShatterAlan

murpho999 wrote: »

I had a cousin and her new partner who I'd met a few times at family gatherings before, over for dinner a few years ago and during the course of conversation it became clear that he was at Jim Corr level of believing in conspiracies.

911 - Inside Job.
JFK - No way Oswald did it.
Moon Landings - Faked.

I found it quite shocking that this intelligent and serious man really believed in everything he was saying and any counter argument you present was deemed rubbish and that I need to wake up and realise what's going on.

I just don't get how they think these things can happen without whistleblowing. Organising 911 would require the co-operation of a lot of people but it is plausible as a small group could be behind the people that actually did it.

The moon landings though, it's ridiculous to think it didn't happen. That would require co-operation of thousands of people who would then remain silent for the rest of their days.

But no matter what you say or present to these people they just dismiss it and carry on their life believing there's a great big organisation out there controlling the world.

Last i heard was he was in town at the Anti-Masking protests so Covd is now doubt a conspiracy as well

What were the counter arguments?


FWIW I believe the Moon Landings were fine and dandy. Sir Patrick Moore was part of the operation and if he says the whole caper was bona fide then that's good enough for me. Clever man, that Patrick.


The other's I would question.

Capt'n Midnight

ShatterAlan wrote: »

FWIW I believe the Moon Landings were fine and dandy.

It was in the middle of the cold war.

There is no way the Soviets would have let them get away with a hoax.


The hardest part is getting into orbit around the earth. . After that you can take your time getting to the moon and back using simple reliable hypergolic propellants. You just need a larger rocket to carry all the extra fuel and stuff.

Heavens Above and other apps can let you watch satellites. And GPS works


The moon landing were during the cold war.
Test pilots had a shocking death rate back then. During a stretch of 1952, seven test pilots died each month at Edwards. It was an acceptable risk.

dxhound2005

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

It was in the middle of the cold war.

There is no way the Soviets would have let them get away with a hoax.


The hardest part is getting into orbit around the earth. . After that you can take your time getting to the moon and back using simple reliable hypergolic propellants. You just need a larger rocket to carry all the extra fuel and stuff.

Heavens Above and other apps can let you watch satellites. And GPS works


The moon landing were during the cold war.
Test pilots had a shocking death rate back then. During a stretch of 1952, seven test pilots died each month at Edwards. It was an acceptable risk.

But all you have to say is that you have "legitimate doubts" about it or you would "question" it, and then expect normal people to prove you wrong.

Capt'n Midnight

dxhound2005 wrote: »

But all you have to say is that you have "legitimate doubts" about it or you would "question" it, and then expect normal people to prove you wrong.

The other option is to treat it as a religion

Anti vax
5G
fluoride
dirty electricity / pylons
infrasound from wind turbine
homeopathy
etc.


There's lots of religions that no longer exist because every follower was converted or killed.

Some people generate anti-vax propaganda others propagate it.
Given the totally preventable death rate of eradicable diseases the trolley problem is why do we allow the people who generate the anti-vax propaganda to vent their vile.

In the USA 100,000 people a day are catching Covid. About a quarter of a million people will die because Trump will try business as usual during the remainder of his term instead of full lockdown.

ShatterAlan

dxhound2005 wrote: »

And you think the charlatans who make up nonsense have your best interests at heart? I wouldn't trust them any more than I would the TV preachers who make themselves rich by being good showmen. The conspiracy theorists are in it for the money. The worst thing is that some of them are Jim Jones, Charles Manson, David Koresh types who can brainwash people and put them in danger.

But according to you ...I, or many others, are "conspiracy theorists"


What has Koresh and the Branch Davidians got to do with anything? Why even bring that up?


I have no interest in those who dash off to the woods or the hills and proclaim the end of the world with their guns and their industrial stocks of beans.


Yet some do. Some believe they need to be reined in an not allowed to have their "way".

Capt'n Midnight

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The other option is to treat it as a religion

Anti vax
5G
fluoride
dirty electricity / pylons
infrasound from wind turbine
homeopathy
etc.


There's lots of religions that no longer exist because every follower was converted or killed.

Some people generate anti-vax propaganda others propagate it.
Given the totally preventable death rate of eradicable diseases the trolley problem is why do we allow the people who generate the anti-vax propaganda to vent their vile.

In the USA 100,000 people a day are catching Covid. About a quarter of a million people will die because Trump will try business as usual during the remainder of his term instead of full lockdown.

Already been proven earlier in the thread that Doctors are being incentivised to record deaths as Covid, regardless of whether it was primary cause of death. Testing method also found to be (sometimes wildly) inaccurate.

So, we've no idea of the real numbers. Definitely not 250k. Probably only a fraction of that.

ShatterAlan

a_squirrelman wrote: »

But here's the thing, I wouldn't class Noam Chomsky and John Pilger as conspiracy theorists (don't know the other fella), I respect them for the most part, it isn't an all in or all out thing.

Where with the recent conspiracy theories floating around I'm like "wtf is this".

You would class them as conspiracy theorists?


Were I to tell you that the Lockerbie Bombing was a Libyan operation you would say "yeah...that strikes about right"


Were I to tell you that Libya had nothing to do with it...you'd call me a conspiacy theorist.


That's all this is. An exercise in name-calling.


You doubt the government? You're a tin-foiler
You think that climate change MIGHT actually be real ..... you're a tree hugger scumbag.
You think that you shouldn't just do what everyone tells you......you're a terrorist.




I got on a plane 2 weeks ago and I refused to go through a body scanner.


The little BASTARD got all belligerent with me and demanded "Why? This is safe? Why you refuse? WHY?"


I told the stupid prick that I have a choice and I can exercise it. He was still screaming "Why.....this machine is safe".


And everyone just went through...hands up, shoes off, like dildoes.

storker

ShatterAlan wrote: »

That's all this is. An exercise in name-calling.

ShatterAlan wrote: »

And everyone just went through...hands up, shoes off, like dildoes.

That name-calling, terrible isn't it? :rolleyes:

ShatterAlan

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What do you mean by a legitimate doubt? Why is it not legitimate to doubt the official narrative about lizard people. Lots of people believe the official narrative is a conspiracy.

I was quoting another.


I was scolding someone who deemed this thread and discussion ought to be relegated without a contribution.


And yes.....lots of people believe the "official" narrative.


I, au contraire, tend to not do so...so quickly.

dxhound2005

Deleted User wrote: »

Already been proven earlier in the thread that Doctors are being incentivised to record deaths as Covid, regardless of whether it was primary cause of death. Testing method also found to be (sometimes wildly) inaccurate.

So, we've no idea of the real numbers. Definitely not 250k. Probably only a fraction of that.

Not proven, and in fact highly disputed by many medical sources. If a doctor falsifies a death certificate for money they should face legal action. We will have to wait and see how many cases come up.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/10/trump-baselessly-suggests-covid-19-deaths-inflated-for-profit/

Capt'n Midnight

Deleted User wrote: »

Already been proven earlier in the thread that Doctors are being incentivised to record deaths as Covid, regardless of whether it was primary cause of death. Testing method also found to be (sometimes wildly) inaccurate.

So, we've no idea of the real numbers. Definitely not 250k. Probably only a fraction of that.

The counter argument is people are dying without going to hospital because US healthcare is insanely expensive.

One third of the excess deaths are not listed as Covid

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm

As of October 15, 216,025 deaths from COVID-19 have been reported in the United States; however, this might underestimate the total impact of the pandemic on mortality.

...
Overall, an estimated 299,028 excess deaths occurred from late January through October 3, 2020, with 198,081 (66%) excess deaths attributed to COVID-19.

pure.conya

as Carlin said, just think how stupid the average person on the street is, then realise that half of them are even more stupid than that

Mister Vain

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Not proven, and in fact highly disputed by many medical sources. If a doctor falsifies a death certificate for money they should face legal action. We will have to wait and see how many cases come up.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/10/trump-baselessly-suggests-covid-19-deaths-inflated-for-profit/

It's not that the doctors are falsifying death certs, it's the procedures they're been asked to follow that are questionable. There were people in the UK that died from suicide and COVID-19 was put on the death cert. A lot of doctors as well as family members of the deceased are understandably not too happy about this.

dxhound2005

Mister Vain wrote: »

IThere were people in the UK that died from suicide and COVID-19 was put on the death cert. A lot of doctors as well as family members of the deceased are understandably not too happy about this.

I did a Google on that, just one page. One link is about claims that suicide as the recorded cause of death in the UK has gone up 200% during Covid, the opposite of what you say. But it looks dodgy.

https://factcheckni.org/articles/has-the-suicide-rate-increased-200-during-the-covid-19-lockdown-period/

Can you give some cases (you say there are a lot) of those doctors and families who are not happy with false death certs?

ShatterAlan

Wibbs wrote: »

There's a third option: Happenstance and incompetence. The morality of the powerful is not in question as such. Those who actively seek power or try to hang onto it tend to turn blind eyes when it suits and open them when it suits. Fine. The problem with the same types is constant paranoia and competition. They can barely agree with each other on stuff that is open, never mind top secret stuff. Plus in order to act on top secret stuff you need lots of players, any one of whom may see it in their particular interest to sabotage it or let the cat out of the bag. There are too many actors on the stage to keep to the same script for very long.

Take the moon landing conspiracy. Hundreds of thousands of people involved in that project, tens of thousands at the sharp end, the entire globe watching and listening in(radio hams were able to work out the frequencies used by both the US and USSR by trial and error and working out the length of antennas from photos) and a belligerent opponent fighting with the US in a proxy world war 3 and yet... The Soviets would have only loved to say it was faked. The joke is surveys in Russia and America show more Americans think they didn't go to the moon. In the UK and France the percentage is even higher.

It's way further back than that. Maybe 100,000 years, given burial practices and offerings for the afterlife and I doubt cavemen were running organised cabals.

Eh... they believed it 100% themselves. Among the greatest minds in human history many if not a majority believed in a deity or deities, of something more.

And the US propaganda lies came out very soon after. Within months. They couldn't sustain their BS for any length of time. Yet they've kept Kennedy, moon landings etc going decades later?

Deliberate in the sense of greed among a large section of investors and the like and a feeling that this time it'll be grand, or I'll get out before it goes bang. Add in a lack of oversight because that's "bad for the market" and you get the boom bust cycle. There was no conspiracy required when the Dutch went insane over the "value" of tulips, though after it went bang some blamed external forces. It's a very human thing. We're a pattern seeking species and we need to see patterns in the chaos, even when it's just chaos. It's what we do. It's what brought us from the cave to the space station, but it can be fooled too.

You bring up the moon landing conspiracy and I wish you wouldn't because even though I don't have any proof that they were faked, ergo I can't prove conclusively that man landed on the Moon, I am taking their word for it. Seems an awful lot of money to spend on a hoax that has no financial or political reward other than bragging rights. The Soviets had already achieved all the important advances in the space race. The Moon was just a consolation prize.


Tulip mania was speculation gone wild. As was the dotcom collapse. The 2008 financial meltdown was something different. The deliberate shutting of Glass-Stegall and the availabilty of free money and the packaging of junk mortgages into indecipherable financial vehicles allowed the banks to crash the monetary system, get bailed out and then for vulture funds to snap up masses of assets for pennies on the dollar. Biggest heist in history. It was no accident.


"In politics nothing happens by accident. If it happens you can bet it was planned that way." - Franklin D. Roosevelt.

ShatterAlan

tjdaly wrote: »

Maybe you could start an alternative Facebook page for him Andrew? Keep it going with little factoids about orthodox science, as well as well wishings around Easter and festive memes at Christmas.

So the possibility that we are not being told the whole truth about a virus pandemic is utterly implausible yet a virgin getting pregnant by an angel and her kid then turning water into wine, raising people from the dead and eventually being executed by the authorities only to rise from the dead himself 3 days later is grand. :pac:

ShatterAlan

a_squirrelman wrote: »

But here's the thing, I wouldn't class Noam Chomsky and John Pilger as conspiracy theorists (don't know the other fella), I respect them for the most part, it isn't an all in or all out thing.

Where with the recent conspiracy theories floating around I'm like "wtf is this".

Why not?


John Pilger has called the whole Skripal affair a farce and a deliberate campaign to ramp up public anti-Russian sentiment. If anyone else echoed his sentiments you'd dismiss them as a raging "tinfoiler" without so much as listening to a word of what they say. You might even call them a putin-bot on the Kremlin payroll.

valoren

It's funny how operatives for the Republican party couldn't get away with bugging the DNC headquarters which ultimately lead to a President resigning because ONE security guard saw suspicious activity and how a Democrat President, with the powers of state at his disposal, couldn't cover up an affair with an intern because she spoke privately with ONE friend who secretly recorded their conversations but the US government, with both political parties overlapping the Apollo program, can be bipartisan and successfully fake and subsequently cover up one of the biggest engineering feats of the 20th Century. It's worth remembering that the Apollo program was not totally supported and many were appalled at the spiralling costs involved. Imagine if ONE person blew the whistle about billions being spent on a hoax particularly with the ongoing war in Vietnam and social and civil unrest domestically happening in parallel. As such, there was sufficient motivation for investigative journalists to work on exposing any shenanigans particularly with federal funds involved. Think of the recriminations for the Apollo 15 crew for toting along post cards to be postmarked on return from “The Moon” in order to make a subsequent buck in the collectors market. There was also a motivated geopolitical adversary who was obviously monitoring activities and would have welcomed the opportunity to embarrass NASA with telemetry data indicating the merest hint of fraud. So yeah 400,000 involved in it at it's peak and not ONE, with any credibility, blew the whistle in any capacity.

ShatterAlan

dxhound2005 wrote: »

So he got it right but now big pharma has corrupted his perfect vaccine?

Serious Side Effects of Smallpox Vaccine
Heart problems
Swelling of the brain or spinal cord
Severe skin diseases
Spreading the virus to other parts of the body or to another person
Severe allergic reaction after vaccination
Accidental infection of the eye (which may cause swelling of the cornea causing watery painful eyes and blurred vision, scarring of the cornea, and blindness)

The risks for serious smallpox vaccine side effects are greater for:

People with any three of the following risk factors for heart disease: high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, high blood sugar, a family history of heart problems, or smoking
People with heart or blood vessel problems, including angina, previous heart attack, artery disease, congestive heart failure, stroke, or other cardiac problems
People with skin problems, such as eczema, atopic dermatitis, burns, impetigo, contact dermatitis, chickenpox, shingles, psoriasis, or uncontrolled acne
People with weakened immune systems, such as those who have received a transplant, are HIV positive, are receiving treatment for cancer, or are taking medications that suppress the immune system
Infants less than 1 year of age
Women who are pregnant or breastfeeding
People who are taking steroid eye drops or ointment
People who have had problems after previous doses of smallpox vaccine or are allergic to any part of smallpox vaccine, such as antibiotics neomycin or polymixin B

I never said the smallpox vaccine was perfect. It also has side affects. I'm disputing your assertion that 70 years ago was the stone age in the medicine world as opposed to today when we have all these giant leaps forward in science.



There were also massive leaps forward in science from Jenner's time to the 1950's yet children of women administered with Thalidomide were born without limbs and other grotesque birth defects.

ShatterAlan

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What do you mean by a legitimate doubt? Why is it not legitimate to doubt the official narrative about lizard people. Lots of people believe the official narrative is a conspiracy.

I don't quite follow what you mean. Could you elaborate?

ShatterAlan

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

It was in the middle of the cold war.

There is no way the Soviets would have let them get away with a hoax.


The hardest part is getting into orbit around the earth. . After that you can take your time getting to the moon and back using simple reliable hypergolic propellants. You just need a larger rocket to carry all the extra fuel and stuff.

Heavens Above and other apps can let you watch satellites. And GPS works


The moon landing were during the cold war.
Test pilots had a shocking death rate back then. During a stretch of 1952, seven test pilots died each month at Edwards. It was an acceptable risk.

How so? If the Soviets came out and called the whole thing a hoax then who would believe them. The powers that be would simply ridicule them for resorting to sour grapes.


You seem to think that no event could be deliberately orchestrated because somebody would speak out. That's true. Someone nearly always speaks out but they can cry foul until they are blue in the face but even if what they say is the hard cold truth and nobody WANTS to believe them or doesn't believe them because they've be labelled as headbangers then what's the point?


The Gulf of Tonkin Incident was also during the Cold War. Did the Soviets expose the whole thing and rescue Indochina from a holocaust?

EmmetSpiceland

ShatterAlan wrote: »

What has Koresh and the Branch Davidians got to do with anything? Why even bring that up?

Wasn’t their a “conspiracy theory” around the cause of the fire that broke out in the compound?

The ATF said the cultists burned the place themselves and the tear gas canisters they used didn't spark when they went off, this was later proven to be untrue but the cause of the fire is still blamed on the Davidians.

I only know one, proper, “conspiracy nut”. He goes on and on about all the main ones, even the earth being flat. It’s pretty shocking as, up until a few years ago, he was fairly normal.

Now he’s all about trying to get “off grid” and refers to the constitution a fair bit. Seems to have a bit of a horn for the ‘Greater Israel Project’. He also smokes an awful lot of marijuana, which can’t be helping.

I’ve a couple of other friends from college who seem to be developing a case of the “Covid Crazies” on WhatsApp. References to sheep and ulterior motives have started to creep in.

Weirdly, these guys are all from the country. Don’t, personally, know any Dubs who believe in these “conspiracies”.

The Nal

ShatterAlan wrote: »

"In politics nothing happens by accident. If it happens you can bet it was planned that way." - Franklin D. Roosevelt.

"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory, is that conspiracy theorists believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is actually chaotic. The truth is that it is not The Iluminati, or The Jewish Banking Conspiracy, or the Gray Alien Theory.

The truth is far more frightening - Nobody is in control.

The world is rudderless."

Alan Moore

ShatterAlan

Anyone want to move to Singapore:


https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54792187

Keeping us "safe", right?

The Nal

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Anyone want to move to Singapore:


https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54792187

Keeping us "safe", right?

Keeping the kids safe yeah. And people they come into contact with.

Is this a conspiracy theory?