FF/FG/Green Government - part 2

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

In that case, how do you explain the much higher numbers in Northern Ireland?

The only difference I can see between North and South from that perspective is the relative performance of the two governments. You are the one that is putting it down to people doing or not doing the heavy lifting. If I accept your view of the world then some of the following questions must be answered in the affirmative.

Are people from Northern Ireland less responsible? Are they too lazy to do the heavy lifting? Are they too selfish to consider their neighbour? As the numbers are higher in nationalist areas, is that a peculiarly Northern Irish nationalist issue?

I mean, I am told all the time by posters on here that everyone on this island is Irish and are the same.

However, I am not going to blame the people of Northern Ireland for not doing the heavy lifting and making their numbers worse. I am going to give credit where it is due to our own government for managing the crisis much better than the government in the North.

That contradicts what you earlier said here tbh.

blanch152 wrote:

The virus can only get out of control if ordinary people and ordinary businesses are reckless and careless and don't take personal responsibility for what they do.

The Government can't sit outside the Bridge House Hotel and count the number of people going in together. Neither can they be everywhere at everytime for every time a doorbell rings to check how many people are going into a house. You would need 300,000 gardai to monitor all that.

So it all comes down to personal responsibility. We know that there are around 25% of the population who have a Trump/Johnson/Brexit attitude to everything but the rest of us have to be responsible even when they won't.

So you want to blame the people but not blame the people depending on the way the wind is blowing?

Seems to me - you want to give kudos but not Criticism to FFG.

Bannasidhe

Solutionking wrote: »

I would expect the government used a procurement system to buy the product. Tender process etc.

The HSE has said the “extreme urgency arising from the pandemic" led to it paying more than €9.1m to the company that supplied it with millions of bottles of potentially dangerous hand sanitiser without a formal tender process.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40070897.html

But credit where it's due - they acted quickly, hardly govts fault if they bought potentially dangerous fluid and widely distributed it.

blanch152

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Oh Blanch, trying to make this some silly nationalist thing is beneath even you. Where did I say 'The Irish are better then..." - nowhere except in your imagination.

If you are going to claim the current drop in numbers is due to a framework implemented by the govt then equally the rise in numbers was due to the lack of a framework - see how that works?

We got the numbers down - they went back up and daily numbers broke all records - if govt is responsible for the first are they not also responsible for the second?

Explain to me how closing a pub keeps infection out of a nursing home yet when the pubs were closed infections still got into nursing homes?
Perhaps we should be looking at protecting the actual nursing homes?
Where is the causal link between a cafe and a nursing home?
Perhaps the issue is Builders suppliers? - they are open and there are cases in nursing homes ergo buying nuts and bolts is the problem.

Protect economic activity is a great buzz word - unless your work is in an area that's shut down in which case tough. See, that's the thing isn't it - some economic activity is protected (greyhound/horse racing are not only still going on, they are getting increased money from the government) but other rather important in terms of providing employment economic activity is going to the wall. Seems to be lack of joined up thinking... again.

You missed completely the point of my post. If the people of Ireland or whoever lives in this jurisdiction are responsible for the low numbers - 28th out of 31 European countries yesterday - then the people of other countries must be responsible (or irresponsible) for the much higher numbers. The French people must be complete eejits then in your eyes.

The real reason is that governments have differed in their capacity and ability to manage the response.

We have kept schools open but closed non-essential retail. Other countries did the opposite. We have lower numbers.

Different situations have different Covid risks. Nightclubs, full of drunken people singing and dancing in close proximity, are probably the highest risk public activity. They will be last to open. Funerals, especially funerals where someone has died of Covid, are more likely to have covid sufferers as a result of close contact with the deceased and with the health services, again making them high risk.

Schools with low transmission rates from child to adult, with teachers practising social distancing, with pod arrangements are low-risk.

Much of this is self-evident, but it needs governments to make rules for the people, taking into account all various parameters. So yes, while greyhound racing and horse-racing are sports that allow for betting, they are also activities that can take place behind closed doors, without spectators, and appropriate social distancing, making them low risk.

Golf, and tennis to a lesser extent, activities that at first glance lend themselves to being low-risk really aren't, because of the social norms of the 19th hole, where a meal or a drink are associated with finishing the game.

All of this is based on hard data, and government decisions are base on hard data. The government delayed moving from Level 3 to Level 5, because it took a gamble on people self-regulating and reducing contacts to reduce spread. It didn't happen, because contrary to your belief, the people didn't behave as they should, meaning that Level 5 was needed.

joeguevara

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Minister says clothes not essential



https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/clothes-are-not-essential-minister-damien-english-insists-essential-retail-list-is-not-confusing-39684604.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/clothes-are-not-essential-minister-damien-english-defends-retail-restrictions-1.4395331?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fclothes-are-not-essential-minister-damien-english-defends-retail-restrictions-1.4395331

Supermarkets being allowed to sell clothes when smaller retailers are closed 'unfair' says Taoiseach (oh how the pub owners laughed and laughed and laughed)

https://www.irishpost.com/news/micheal-martin-defends-ban-on-sale-of-baby-clothes-and-other-non-essential-items-196509

Gardaí enforcing rules against selling baby clothes and other non-essential items (socks included)
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40073102.html

I believe there was much discussion across the media and here on boards about this whole I can walk into a shop and buy a scented candle but not a pair of socks debacle less than a fortnight ago. Can't believe you missed it.

https://www.thejournal.ie/socks-come-under-clothes-minister-says-clothes-are-not-essential-during-level-5-restrictions-5249216-Oct2020/

If you are not able to browse aimlessly for the socks you want, call them up and come in and collect. Stop making it out that you cannot buy essential clothes.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We are in an enforced level 5 lockdown. The people have accepted whatever they have been asked to do.

Pointing fingers at others is pointless and a wafer thin excuse to attack your boogeymen and women.

It won't stop you but I am not engaging in your macabre politically motivated competition.

Ok, let's leave aside the sh!tstorm in the North.

So tell me Francie then, are the people of Ireland (the South) more responsible than the people of France or Spain?

Are we better than the people of Paris? Madrid? Are we better people than the Americans?

If it is all down to the people as you say, and nothing to do with the FF/FG/Green government, or any other government (because if one does bad, then the other must be doing good), then you are putting forward some form of inherent superior nationalism as the reason.

Solutionking

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Minister says clothes not essential



https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/clothes-are-not-essential-minister-damien-english-insists-essential-retail-list-is-not-confusing-39684604.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/clothes-are-not-essential-minister-damien-english-defends-retail-restrictions-1.4395331?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fclothes-are-not-essential-minister-damien-english-defends-retail-restrictions-1.4395331

Supermarkets being allowed to sell clothes when smaller retailers are closed 'unfair' says Taoiseach (oh how the pub owners laughed and laughed and laughed)

https://www.irishpost.com/news/micheal-martin-defends-ban-on-sale-of-baby-clothes-and-other-non-essential-items-196509

Gardaí enforcing rules against selling baby clothes and other non-essential items (socks included)
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40073102.html

I believe there was much discussion across the media and here on boards about this whole I can walk into a shop and buy a scented candle but not a pair of socks debacle less than a fortnight ago. Can't believe you missed it.

Bit of cop on required here. You can order clothes direct to your door.

I seen that interview with Miriam, it was embarrassing for her, really someone in the year 2020 doesn't understand about online shopping. If you had "much discussion" then really I don't know how any of you didn't realise about online shopping.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Ok, let's leave aside the sh!tstorm in the North.

So tell me Francie then, are the people of Ireland (the South) more responsible than the people of France or Spain?

Are we better than the people of Paris? Madrid? Are we better people than the Americans?

If it is all down to the people as you say, and nothing to do with the FF/FG/Green government, or any other government (because if one does bad, then the other must be doing good), then you are putting forward some form of inherent superior nationalism as the reason.

Instead of your usual flamboyant misrepresentation...here is what I said. If you want to dipute what I actually said instead of running off on your usual Get SF at Any Cost rants, knock yourself out.

franciebrady wrote:

And if the Irish people hadn't complied the numbers would be right up to critical levels.

Despite the confusion and row back in government the poster is correct, the people did the heavy lifting.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Ok, let's leave aside the sh!tstorm in the North.

So tell me Francie then, are the people of Ireland (the South) more responsible than the people of France or Spain?

Are we better than the people of Paris? Madrid? Are we better people than the Americans?

If it is all down to the people as you say, and nothing to do with the FF/FG/Green government, or any other government (because if one does bad, then the other must be doing good), then you are putting forward some form of inherent superior nationalism as the reason.

You said that people were to blame. And conveniently ignored where the hypocrisy was pointed out.

grayzer75

blanch152 wrote: »

Ok, let's leave aside the sh!tstorm in the North.

So tell me Francie then, are the people of Ireland (the South) more responsible than the people of France or Spain?

Are we better than the people of Paris? Madrid? Are we better people than the Americans?

If it is all down to the people as you say, and nothing to do with the FF/FG/Green government, or any other government (because if one does bad, then the other must be doing good), then you are putting forward some form of inherent superior nationalism as the reason.

What sh1tstorm? The numbers rose and the executive acted - and rightly so.

The weekly positive test result percentage has dropped from over 16% to 12% in a week and continues to fall so it's all good news.

Closing the non essential shops in the south has just pushed shoppers over the border to shop - the Quays in Newry had loads of southern reg cars on saturday as did the Damolly retail park (especially at Smyths).

Solutionking

Bannasidhe wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40070897.html

But credit where it's due - they acted quickly, hardly govts fault if they bought potentially dangerous fluid and widely distributed it.

This was based on the European Commission’s guidance on public procurement during the Covid-19 crisis.

Solutionking

I am not trying to say the government are excellent, to be honest I would expect people would want to discuss crime and the failings of the government. Not buying socks

blanch152

McMurphy wrote: »

That contradicts what you earlier said here tbh.




So you want to blame the people but not blame the people depending on the way the wind is blowing?

Seems to me - you want to give kudos but not Criticism to FFG.

No contradiction at all, just a failure to understand, whether due to my posts lacking clarity or some other reason, I don't know, so let me explain more clearly for you.

The Government can put in place rules, regulations, guidelines for Covid-19. Without the correct rules, regulations and guidelines (e.g. keeping nightclubs open), Covid-19 would spread like wildfire. One of the factors in determining the correct level of rules, regulations and guidelines, is the level of compliance by the public.

So while the government can put in place rules, regulations and guidelines, it can't be outside every hotel checking on everyone, neither can it stop the poster on here who travelled three times since June to Portugal, because we are not a police state.

In essence there is a matrix or graph of outcomes with two axes, one being government action, the other being response of public. The interplay of the two can result in positive or negative outcomes. For example, if the government closes pubs, but the government has no power under the Constitution to force the pubs to close, but they stay open and remain packed, and people die, that is down to the public and business not following the rules. However if the government doesn't close pubs, they stay open and remain packed, and people die, that is down to the government.

Similar outcomes, different people to blame. In some situations, it is the failure of government that is the problem, in other situations, it is the failure of the public to follow the rules. Of course, in the latter case, there is some blame on the government, if they are not showing a good example, hence the reason why Calleary had to resign.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Instead of your usual flamboyant misrepresentation...here is what I said. If you want to dipute what I actually said instead of running off on your usual Get SF at Any Cost rants, knock yourself out.

This isn't about Sinn Fein at all, Francie, I dropped the NI comparison, it is about your statements about the people taking the credit not the government.

You said the people get the credit for the heavy lifting. So again, I ask you, are the people of Ireland (the South) more responsible than the people of France or Spain?

Are we better than the people of Paris? Madrid? Are we better people than the Americans?

If it is all down to the people as you say, and nothing to do with the FF/FG/Green government, or any other government (because if one does bad, then the other must be doing good), then you are putting forward some form of inherent superior nationalism as the reason.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

This isn't about Sinn Fein at all, Francie, I dropped the NI comparison, it is about your statements about the people taking the credit not the government.

You said the people get the credit for the heavy lifting. So again, I ask you, are the people of Ireland (the South) more responsible than the people of France or Spain?

Are we better than the people of Paris? Madrid? Are we better people than the Americans?

If it is all down to the people as you say, and nothing to do with the FF/FG/Green government, or any other government (because if one does bad, then the other must be doing good), then you are putting forward some form of inherent superior nationalism as the reason.

What is with the vain searching for compliments. Why can you not deal with what was said:

And if the Irish people hadn't complied the numbers would be right up to critical levels.

Despite the confusion and row back in government the poster is correct, the people did the heavy lifting.

Let me break it into two different sentences to make it easier for you to deal with what was actually said.

And if the Irish people hadn't complied the numbers would be right up to critical levels.

Is this True or False?

Despite the confusion and row back in government the poster is correct, the people did the heavy lifting.

There was confusion, the government did row back on taking the advice of NPHET a week later and intituted Level 5 and in all cases the Irish people complied with it. I.E while the government dithered the Irish people did the heavy lifting regardless.
Is any part of that FALSE?

Bannasidhe

Solutionking wrote: »

Bit of cop on required here. You can order clothes direct to your door.

I seen that interview with Miriam, it was embarrassing for her, really someone in the year 2020 doesn't understand about online shopping. If you had "much discussion" then really I don't know how any of you didn't realise about online shopping.

If you had been listening to today's Liveline you would have heard many people discussing how they are not able/comfortable with going on-line.

I really don't know how any of you are unaware that there are people in this country, usually elderly who do not have access to the internet or the knowledge of how to use it, who cannot just 'click'.

This was also covered in the many many discussions.

You don't seem to be aware of much that has been going on tbh. Has this got something to do with new being a newbie?

joeguevara

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If you had been listening to today's Liveline you would have heard many people discussing how they are not able/comfortable with going on-line.

I really don't know how any of you are unaware that there are people in this country, usually elderly who do not have access to the internet or the knowledge of how to use it, who cannot just 'click'.

This was also covered in the many many discussions.

You don't seem to be aware of much that has been going on tbh. Has this got something to do with new being a newbie?

Tescos and dunnes sell socks for the wonderful people of liveline. NEXXXXXXXTTTTTTTTTTT!

Bannasidhe

Solutionking wrote: »

I am not trying to say the government are excellent, to be honest I would expect people would want to discuss crime and the failings of the government. Not buying socks

Actually, it is very much coming across that everything good = Government gets credit. Everything not good = Not government's fault is your position.

You are also strongly unaware of the main discussions points across all the media over the last few weeks.

I suspect shenanigans.

Solutionking

I can't wait till we have the parades up and down the Quays

"FREE THE SOCKS, FREE THE SOCKS"

Of course Miriam with 20 children hanging out of her will be at the front

Solutionking

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Actually, it is very much coming across that everything good = Government gets credit. Everything not good = Not government's fault is your position.

You are also strongly unaware of the main discussions points across all the media over the last few weeks.

I suspect shenanigans.

You can suspect what you want. Personally I think someone getting a hatchet to the head in the middle of the day in Dublin is a little more important than a pair of socks.

Brendan Bendar

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Actually, it is very much coming across that everything good = Government gets credit. Everything not good = Not government's fault is your position.

You are also strongly unaware of the main discussions points across all the media over the last few weeks.

I suspect shenanigans.

I suspect you dived into shark infested waters trailing a bucket of ‘chum’ and .............got torn apart.

smurgen

I hope all those that were pissing and moaning about the cost of the convention center are as pissed off about this.....

A 10 million euro overpayment of rent now not recoverable paid to Larry Goodman.


"In the wake of a highly adversarial meeting of the previous iteration of PAC and the OPW in October of that year, Mr Buckley undertook to revisit the issue of overpayment with the landlord of the building, beef baron Larry Goodman’s Remley Developments."

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40079279.html?type=amp&__twitter_impression=true

joeguevara

smurgen wrote: »

I hope all those that were pissing and moaning about the cost of the convention center are as pissed off about this.....

A 10 million euro overpayment of rent now not recoverable paid to Larry Goodman.


"In the wake of a highly adversarial meeting of the previous iteration of PAC and the OPW in October of that year, Mr Buckley undertook to revisit the issue of overpayment with the landlord of the building, beef baron Larry Goodman’s Remley Developments."

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40079279.html?type=amp&__twitter_impression=true

Was this the fault of the government or the office of public works?

smurgen

joeguevara wrote: »

Was this the fault of the government or the office of public works?

I dunno. I heard yesterday that Leo was responsible for the wild atlantic way so when it's positive news the link seems tenuous enough.

joeguevara

smurgen wrote: »

I dunno. I heard yesterday that Leo was responsible for the wild atlantic way so when it's positive news the link seems tenuous enough.

It says its the fault of the Office of Public Works.

smurgen

joeguevara wrote: »

It says its the fault of the Office of Public Works.

Ah ya. Government office. So where were ya going with this?

https://www.gov.ie/en/organisation-information/aaa301-history-of-the-office-of-public-works/

joeguevara

smurgen wrote: »

Ah ya. Government office. So where were ya going with this?

https://www.gov.ie/en/organisation-information/aaa301-history-of-the-office-of-public-works/

Honestly was a query. I don't know much about them.

blanch152

smurgen wrote: »

I hope all those that were pissing and moaning about the cost of the convention center are as pissed off about this.....

A 10 million euro overpayment of rent now not recoverable paid to Larry Goodman.


"In the wake of a highly adversarial meeting of the previous iteration of PAC and the OPW in October of that year, Mr Buckley undertook to revisit the issue of overpayment with the landlord of the building, beef baron Larry Goodman’s Remley Developments."

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40079279.html?type=amp&__twitter_impression=true

You just can't trust Leo with a measuring tape. He gets it wrong every time.

James Brown

Solutionking wrote: »

The government has nothing to do with Debenhams. No idea why you think that has any relevance to my post? if you could explain that would be great. Thanks

Leo Varadkar chimed in telling the lie there was no money there. For a supposed impartial person as a public representative you would think if he did open his gob it would be to support the workers rather than lie to side with the liquidators, availing of the loopholes his government left despite the advice after the Clery's scandal.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

Leo Varadkar chimed in telling the lie there was no money there. For a supposed impartial person as a public representative you would think if he did open his gob it would be to support the workers rather than lie to side with the liquidators, availing of the loopholes his government left despite the advice after the Clery's scandal.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/explainer-why-are-former-debenhams-workers-picketing-1020881.html

Which bit of this explanation is incorrect?

Effectively, according to that, Debenhams workers want to rob €20m of taxpayers money and the High Court have found that there is no money or reason to pay and have granted injunctions to Debenhams against the workers?

So where did Leo lie when the High Court has backed Debenhams?

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/explainer-why-are-former-debenhams-workers-picketing-1020881.html

Which bit of this explanation is incorrect?

Effectively, according to that, Debenhams workers want to rob €20m of taxpayers money and the High Court have found that there is no money or reason to pay and have granted injunctions to Debenhams against the workers?

So where did Leo lie when the High Court has backed Debenhams?

The comment stated government had nothing to do with Debenhams and asked what the connection was. I explained the connection between Varadkar and Debenhams. LV chimed in off his own back to be critical of the workers.
Your take on the situation does not dispute my comment or the context in responding to the other poster's query.
There was money there. If LV took it upon himself to chime in, with the lie Debenhams had no assets/money, he should have done so on behalf of the workers while apologising for not tackling the advice given after the Clery's scandal.