FF/FG/Green Government - part 2

Bannasidhe

Solutionking wrote: »

Would you not consider the drop in number of Covid not a win for the government?

No.

I credit the people living in Ireland who have managed it despite the govt.
Sanitizer in schools etc that doesn't work.
Track and Trace imploding.
Outbreaks in Nursing homes again.
Hospitality industry on it's knees.
No mortgage breaks for those whose jobs are gone.
HCW's on their knees with exhaustion.

Don't get me wrong - Ireland is doing well in comparison to many other countries but the credit belong to the people taking the hits, to the hcw's risking their lives, and to those who have cop-on and consideration enough to personally take the steps to protect others.

Cluedo Monopoly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No.

I credit the people living in Ireland who have managed it despite the govt.
Sanitizer in schools etc that doesn't work.
Track and Trace imploding.
Outbreaks in Nursing homes again.
Hospitality industry on it's knees.
No mortgage breaks for those whose jobs are gone.
HCW's on their knees with exhaustion.

Don't get me wrong - Ireland is doing well in comparison to many other countries but the credit belong to the people taking the hits, to the hcw's risking their lives, and to those who have cop-on and consideration enough to personally take the steps to protect others.

You forgot Leo leaking the Level 5 letter and the Covid Plan being discredited after an hour with that embarassing press conference, level 2.5 and a rewrite.

The biggest mistake the government made was not to increase capacity over the summer, especially in ICU. I talked to a consultant in UCHG ICU at the end of August and she was livid over this.

The INMO warned the government in November 2019 and every other winter but it was ignored by successive FFG governments.

https://inmo.ie/Home/Index/217/13549

2019 has seen the highest number of patients on trolleys in any year since records began – despite it still being November.

“Winter has only just begun and the record is already broken. These statistics are the hallmark of a wildly bureaucratic health service, which is failing staff and patients alike.

“We take no pleasure in having to record these figures for a decade and a half. We know the problem, but we also know the solutions: extra beds in hospitals, safe staffing levels, and more step-down and community care outside of the hospital.

FFG have failed this state with their handling of the health service.

Brendan Bendar

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No.

I credit the people living in Ireland who have managed it despite the govt.
Sanitizer in schools etc that doesn't work.
Track and Trace imploding.
Outbreaks in Nursing homes again.
Hospitality industry on it's knees.
No mortgage breaks for those whose jobs are gone.
HCW's on their knees with exhaustion.

Don't get me wrong - Ireland is doing well in comparison to many other countries but the credit belong to the people taking the hits, to the hcw's risking their lives, and to those who have cop-on and consideration enough to personally take the steps to protect others.

Nothing personal, but I’d have to say that that post is the most ill thought contribution I have read in a long time.

blanch152

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No.

I credit the people living in Ireland who have managed it despite the govt.
Sanitizer in schools etc that doesn't work.
Track and Trace imploding.
Outbreaks in Nursing homes again.
Hospitality industry on it's knees.
No mortgage breaks for those whose jobs are gone.
HCW's on their knees with exhaustion.

Don't get me wrong - Ireland is doing well in comparison to many other countries but the credit belong to the people taking the hits, to the hcw's risking their lives, and to those who have cop-on and consideration enough to personally take the steps to protect others.

The government has created the framework to allow those things to happen.

Trump didn't do it in the USA, Johnson didn't do it in England, Macron didn't do it in France, SF/DUP didn't do it in Northern Ireland, hence the higher case rates in those countries.

Irish people are not better than others just because, that is a myth. We have had better outcomes in relation to Covid because the government have weighed the medical advice and acted appropriately.

Look at the list you made - many of the things you listed are incompatible and/or counter-productive.

You say the hospitality industry is on its knees but outbreaks in nursing homes again. In order to curb the number of deaths in nursing homes (which incidentally are at lower rates in this country than in our neighbours), the hospitality industry had to be curbed.

The fact is there is a pandemic involving a highly infectious disease. People will die no matter what we do. Managing the situation so that our hospitals aren't overwhelmed but at the same time some level of economic activity continues is a precarious balancing act. The people on their own don't decide that, it is the government that puts the framework in place to allow it to happen.

joeguevara

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

You forgot Leo leaking the Level 5 letter and the Covid Plan being discredited after an hour with that embarassing press conference, level 2.5 and a rewrite.

The biggest mistake the government made was not to increase capacity over the summer, especially in ICU. I talked to a consultant in UCHG ICU at the end of August and she was livid over this.

The INMO warned the government in November 2019 and every other winter but it was ignored by successive FFG governments.

https://inmo.ie/Home/Index/217/13549

How does one simply increase capacity of the ICU and has our ICU been overrun at any stage?

Bannasidhe

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Nothing personal, but I’d have to say that that post is the most ill thought contribution I have read in a long time.

Nothing personal, but scoffing is not a rebuttal.

Cluedo Monopoly

joeguevara wrote: »

How does one simply increase capacity of the ICU and has our ICU been overrun at any stage?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/covid-19-ireland-faces-icu-bed-crisis-warns-mary-favier-1.4384430

Covid-19: Ireland faces ICU bed crisis, warns Mary Favier

According to a 2019 HSE report there were 255 Critical Care beds in the system but a HSE daily report on October 16th said there were currently just 36 ICU beds available as the numbers hospitalised with Covid 19 continues to rise.

It's only November and we are struggling. Sure levels stay at Level 5 for months so.

We can ignore cancer screening and coronary care too because those problems have gone away.

Cluedo Monopoly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Nothing personal, but scoffing is not a rebuttal.

They have lost their default answer

Solutionking

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No.

I credit the people living in Ireland who have managed it despite the govt.
Sanitizer in schools etc that doesn't work.
Track and Trace imploding.
Outbreaks in Nursing homes again.
Hospitality industry on it's knees.
No mortgage breaks for those whose jobs are gone.
HCW's on their knees with exhaustion.

Don't get me wrong - Ireland is doing well in comparison to many other countries but the credit belong to the people taking the hits, to the hcw's risking their lives, and to those who have cop-on and consideration enough to personally take the steps to protect others.

That's not really the truth is it now?

Solutionking

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Nothing personal, but scoffing is not a rebuttal.

Are you saying the Irish people would have reduced the numbers without the guidelines from the government?

Brendan Bendar

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Nothing personal, but scoffing is not a rebuttal.

My time is more valuable than wasting it on anything to do with that post.

Nothing personal.

Bannasidhe

blanch152 wrote: »

The government has created the framework to allow those things to happen.

Trump didn't do it in the USA, Johnson didn't do it in England, Macron didn't do it in France, SF/DUP didn't do it in Northern Ireland, hence the higher case rates in those countries.

Irish people are not better than others just because, that is a myth. We have had better outcomes in relation to Covid because the government have weighed the medical advice and acted appropriately.

Look at the list you made - many of the things you listed are incompatible and/or counter-productive.

You say the hospitality industry is on its knees but outbreaks in nursing homes again. In order to curb the number of deaths in nursing homes (which incidentally are at lower rates in this country than in our neighbours), the hospitality industry had to be curbed.

The fact is there is a pandemic involving a highly infectious disease. People will die no matter what we do. Managing the situation so that our hospitals aren't overwhelmed but at the same time some level of economic activity continues is a precarious balancing act. The people on their own don't decide that, it is the government that puts the framework in place to allow it to happen.

Oh Blanch, trying to make this some silly nationalist thing is beneath even you. Where did I say 'The Irish are better then..." - nowhere except in your imagination.

If you are going to claim the current drop in numbers is due to a framework implemented by the govt then equally the rise in numbers was due to the lack of a framework - see how that works?

We got the numbers down - they went back up and daily numbers broke all records - if govt is responsible for the first are they not also responsible for the second?

Explain to me how closing a pub keeps infection out of a nursing home yet when the pubs were closed infections still got into nursing homes?
Perhaps we should be looking at protecting the actual nursing homes?
Where is the causal link between a cafe and a nursing home?
Perhaps the issue is Builders suppliers? - they are open and there are cases in nursing homes ergo buying nuts and bolts is the problem.

Protect economic activity is a great buzz word - unless your work is in an area that's shut down in which case tough. See, that's the thing isn't it - some economic activity is protected (greyhound/horse racing are not only still going on, they are getting increased money from the government) but other rather important in terms of providing employment economic activity is going to the wall. Seems to be lack of joined up thinking... again.

FrancieBrady

Solutionking wrote: »

Are you saying the Irish people would have reduced the numbers without the guidelines from the government?

We would certainly be out of lockdown had a coalition partner not interfered to endorse ignoring the expert advice.

Expert advice we had to take a week later. Shambolic tbh.

Bishop of hope

Solutionking wrote: »

Are you saying the Irish people would have reduced the numbers without the guidelines from the government?

Tbf the guidelines were implemented after much deliberation of the medical advice from NPHET.
Advice that was scoffed at by the govt and many others two weeks earlier, even criticised by them.
I would have thought the restrictions were very severe myself at level 5 and they have caused hardship to many, but they seem to be working well.
I'm not sure the govt can claim the qudos on it though.

Floppybits

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Nothing personal, but I’d have to say that that post is the most ill thought contribution I have read in a long time.

At least it is a contribution and not he usual hand waving and pooing pooing from you who never ever posts a contribution. It's easy to do what you do and sit there on your high horse never contributing unless it is put someone down.

Bannasidhe

Solutionking wrote: »

That's not really the truth is it now?

What is untrue?

Solutionking wrote: »

Are you saying the Irish people would have reduced the numbers without the guidelines from the government?

I am saying the people living in Ireland did and are doing the heavy lifting.
The message from Govt has, at best been mixed and at worst contradictory, and the guidelines come from NEPHET.

Solutionking

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Tbf the guidelines were implemented after much deliberation of the medical advice from NPHET.
Advice that was scoffed at by the govt and many others two weeks earlier, even criticised by them.
I would have thought the restrictions were very severe myself at level 5 and they have caused hardship to many, but they seem to be working well.
I'm not sure the govt can claim the qudos on it though.

According to the post the only reason the numbers are dropping is because of the Irish people, if that was the case then the government should never had to go from Level 3 to Level 5.

Bishop of hope

Solutionking wrote: »

According to the post the only reason the numbers are dropping is because of the Irish people, if that was the case then the government should never had to go from Level 3 to Level 5.

That's fair comment.

FrancieBrady

Solutionking wrote: »

According to the post the only reason the numbers are dropping is because of the Irish people, if that was the case then the government should never had to go from Level 3 to Level 5.

And if the Irish people hadn't complied the numbers would be right up to critical levels.

Despite the confusion and row back in government the poster is correct, the people did the heavy lifting.

Solutionking

I think the government deserves some credit. They have made mistakes, but look at the mess in other countries and they have done ok.

That's not saying I give them a free pass and think they have been incredible. It seems on this forum people only can see black or white. That is not the case in reality.

joeguevara

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/covid-19-ireland-faces-icu-bed-crisis-warns-mary-favier-1.4384430



It's only November and we are struggling. Sure levels stay at Level 5 for months so.

We can ignore cancer screening and coronary care too because those problems have gone away.

You stated that the biggest mistake was not increasing ICU capacity over the summer. My question is how this could have been done.

Secondly we are not overun in our ICU as you have stated.

Bannasidhe

Solutionking wrote: »

According to the post the only reason the numbers are dropping is because of the Irish people, if that was the case then the government should never had to go from Level 3 to Level 5.

Let's ignore the govts refusal to go to Lv 5 when NPHET advised them to shall we?

NPHET are are the one's formulating the guidelines -the Govt is implementing (some) of those guidelines in a hodge podge, contradictory, unclear, and mixed message way.

Tell me - can we buy socks yet?

What the govt did not do was prepare for the second wave - despite the possibility of it happening being well flagged.
They got caught with their pants down.

So no - they do not deserve credit for reacting to a crises long after they had been warned it was imminent.



1st Sept
https://globalhealth.ie/the-case-for-a-fortress-ireland-as-second-wave-eases-closer/

11th Sept
https://www.newstalk.com/news/ireland-well-second-wave-covid-19-1074539

19th Sept
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/prof-sam-mcconkey-this-is-the-beginning-of-the-second-covid-19-wave-in-ireland-1.4358495


IF they had been proactive then absolutely, I would give them credit.

Do you not think the credit goes to the people living in Ireland - not all of whom are Irish by the way?

Do you not think that a population that - with a few loud exceptions - abide by the guidelines even when there was no legal sanctions for failing to do so deserve some credit?

Gosh. So much for being in this together. Apparently the numbers are falling because govt issued leaflets and closed some (but not all) businesses and has nothing to do with the people.

joeguevara

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Let's ignore the govts refusal to go to Lv 5 when NPHET advised them to shall we?

NPHET are are the one's formulating the guidelines -the Govt is implementing (some) of those guidelines in a hodge podge, contradictory, unclear, and mixed message way.

Tell me - can we buy socks yet?

What the govt did not do was prepare for the second wave - despite the possibility of it happening being well flagged.
They got caught with their pants down.

So no - they do not deserve credit for reacting to a crises long after they had been warned it was imminent.



1st Sept
https://globalhealth.ie/the-case-for-a-fortress-ireland-as-second-wave-eases-closer/

11th Sept
https://www.newstalk.com/news/ireland-well-second-wave-covid-19-1074539

19th Sept
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/prof-sam-mcconkey-this-is-the-beginning-of-the-second-covid-19-wave-in-ireland-1.4358495


IF they had been proactive then absolutely, I would give them credit.

Do you not think the credit goes to the people living in Ireland - not all of whom are Irish by the way?

Do you not think that a population that - with a few loud exceptions - abide by the guidelines even when there was no legal sanctions for failing to do so deserve some credit?

Gosh. So much for being in this together. Apparently the numbers are falling because govt issued leaflets and closed some (but not all) businesses and has nothing to do with the people.

You can buy socks in tescos.

smurgen

I'm sure those shrieking at government spending yesterday will be outraged at this. More money down the swanny.

https://twitter.com/businessposthq/status/1326138800242905088?s=19

Solutionking

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Let's ignore the govts refusal to go to Lv 5 when NPHET advised them to shall we?

NPHET are are the one's formulating the guidelines -the Govt is implementing (some) of those guidelines in a hodge podge, contradictory, unclear, and mixed message way.

Tell me - can we buy socks yet?

What the govt did not do was prepare for the second wave - despite the possibility of it happening being well flagged.
They got caught with their pants down.

So no - they do not deserve credit for reacting to a crises long after they had been warned it was imminent.



1st Sept
https://globalhealth.ie/the-case-for-a-fortress-ireland-as-second-wave-eases-closer/

11th Sept
https://www.newstalk.com/news/ireland-well-second-wave-covid-19-1074539

19th Sept
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/prof-sam-mcconkey-this-is-the-beginning-of-the-second-covid-19-wave-in-ireland-1.4358495


IF they had been proactive then absolutely, I would give them credit.

Do you not think the credit goes to the people living in Ireland - not all of whom are Irish by the way?

Do you not think that a population that - with a few loud exceptions - abide by the guidelines even when there was no legal sanctions for failing to do so deserve some credit?

Gosh. So much for being in this together. Apparently the numbers are falling because govt issued leaflets and closed some (but not all) businesses and has nothing to do with the people.

Yes I can buy socks, actually I have no problems buying anything and personally I have been in level 5 lockdown since Feb.

Can I ask, why can't you buy socks?

joeguevara

Solutionking wrote: »

Yes I can buy socks, actually I have no problems buying anything and personally I have been in level 5 lockdown since Feb.

Can I ask, why can't you buy socks?

Because it doesn't fit their agenda.

Solutionking

smurgen wrote: »

I'm sure those shrieking at government spending yesterday will be outraged at this. More money down the swanny.

https://twitter.com/businessposthq/status/1326138800242905088?s=19

I would expect the government used a procurement system to buy the product. Tender process etc.

As you posted this, what exactly did you want the government to do?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And if the Irish people hadn't complied the numbers would be right up to critical levels.

Despite the confusion and row back in government the poster is correct, the people did the heavy lifting.

In that case, how do you explain the much higher numbers in Northern Ireland?

The only difference I can see between North and South from that perspective is the relative performance of the two governments. You are the one that is putting it down to people doing or not doing the heavy lifting. If I accept your view of the world then some of the following questions must be answered in the affirmative.

Are people from Northern Ireland less responsible? Are they too lazy to do the heavy lifting? Are they too selfish to consider their neighbour? As the numbers are higher in nationalist areas, is that a peculiarly Northern Irish nationalist issue?

I mean, I am told all the time by posters on here that everyone on this island is Irish and are the same.

However, I am not going to blame the people of Northern Ireland for not doing the heavy lifting and making their numbers worse. I am going to give credit where it is due to our own government for managing the crisis much better than the government in the North.

Bannasidhe

Solutionking wrote: »

Yes I can buy socks, actually I have no problems buying anything and personally I have been in level 5 lockdown since Feb.

Can I ask, why can't you buy socks?

Minister says clothes not essential

“Socks come under clothes, Miriam. Clothes are not essential,” the Minister of State for Employment Affairs and Retail Businesses said while speaking on Prime Time after the RTÉ presenter branded it “a bit mad”.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/clothes-are-not-essential-minister-damien-english-insists-essential-retail-list-is-not-confusing-39684604.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/clothes-are-not-essential-minister-damien-english-defends-retail-restrictions-1.4395331?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fclothes-are-not-essential-minister-damien-english-defends-retail-restrictions-1.4395331

Supermarkets being allowed to sell clothes when smaller retailers are closed 'unfair' says Taoiseach (oh how the pub owners laughed and laughed and laughed)

https://www.irishpost.com/news/micheal-martin-defends-ban-on-sale-of-baby-clothes-and-other-non-essential-items-196509

Gardaí enforcing rules against selling baby clothes and other non-essential items (socks included)
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40073102.html

I believe there was much discussion across the media and here on boards about this whole I can walk into a shop and buy a scented candle but not a pair of socks debacle less than a fortnight ago. Can't believe you missed it.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

In that case, how do you explain the much higher numbers in Northern Ireland?

The only difference I can see between North and South from that perspective is the relative performance of the two governments. You are the one that is putting it down to people doing or not doing the heavy lifting. If I accept your view of the world then some of the following questions must be answered in the affirmative.

Are people from Northern Ireland less responsible? Are they too lazy to do the heavy lifting? Are they too selfish to consider their neighbour? As the numbers are higher in nationalist areas, is that a peculiarly Northern Irish nationalist issue?

I mean, I am told all the time by posters on here that everyone on this island is Irish and are the same.

However, I am not going to blame the people of Northern Ireland for not doing the heavy lifting and making their numbers worse. I am going to give credit where it is due to our own government for managing the crisis much better than the government in the North.

We are in an enforced level 5 lockdown. The people have accepted whatever they have been asked to do.

Pointing fingers at others is pointless and a wafer thin excuse to attack your boogeymen and women.

It won't stop you but I am not engaging in your macabre politically motivated competition.