Schools closed until February? (part 3)

appledrop

Mrsmum wrote: »

Regarding this asymptomatic transmission in schools, I've been trying to think it through logically. I said last week that a student in my son's school testing positive. My son sits with him for a class but was not considered a close contact. So anyway all those considered to be close contacts fortunately in the end tested negative. But going by the English university example my son for example could be asymptomatic and so therefore even though we are all feeling fine so could our whole family be asymptomatic. So I'm thinking of all the other cases of Covid in other schools, considering how contagious we all believe the virus to be, why are most close contacts testing negative rather than positive. Is it that the wrong people are considered close contacts and if say the whole class was tested that you would find many other secret infections ? It seems that far greater testing is needed to reveal the true picture be that pro or anti schools staying open.

You have hit the nail on the head. How the hell can a whole class not be classed as close contacts if spending all day together in small room + if primary school even worse as no masks.

NPHET are quick to give examples of how someone tests positive + they are after being in restaurant for 90 minutes max but still manage to spread it to people at other tables, waiter etc. They would also have much more space between tables then kids in school.

Is their some magic dust thats sprinkled on school classrooms that stops virus spreading?

No what happens is adults in restaurant much more likely to display symptoms so get tested, meanwhile for some mad reason they don't test whole class in school.

Its a receipt for disaster as we are clearly seeing. There should be constant random testing in schools. It could be easily done as HSE go around every school doing regular vacciantions on children during normal times.

However no one wants to do it due to cost + fact that they would have to admit to scale of problem if testing done in schools.

appledrop

I'll even make it easier for them.

They could just pick one or two schools + test EVERYBODY in the school from child to staff.

It would be very interesting to see how that works out.

appledrop

downthemiddle wrote: »

Can anyone explain to me why a student of 19 years of age is not considered a close contact if they are sitting 1 metre from an infected student but an Irish soccer international sitting 1.9 metres from a positive case is?

Its called magic fairy dust that's sprinkled over all education settings that somehow means the normal Covid rules+ regulations dont apply including definition of close contacts.

irishblessing

We're discussing tonight whether we are going to pull our kids from school. I'm of the mind to keep them at home the next two weeks and homeschool, then see what comes from the midterm break, extension, remote learning, etc. That will have them out while these cases are rising so they'll be safe then hopefully there will be a move to online for awhile on an extended break. The stress is too much and I don't feel like its responsible or safe putting them into an environment where most aren't wearing masks, there's stupid shít happening in the classroom with shared food/kids piling on top of each other/not keeping in their seats, windows being closed because "drafts" though the policy says they're supposed to wear coats-and last week I drove past the school while the kids are out in the yard and they appeared to be playing a game where they run after each other and tackle to the ground in a heap. Yes I had it out with the teacher. All that together with the facts being they can contract and spread at least as well as adults do it feels like it goes against any normal instinct as a parent to keep them in. I f-g hate this.

Icyseanfitz

irishblessing wrote: »

We're discussing tonight whether we are going to pull our kids from school. I'm of the mind to keep them at home the next two weeks and homeschool, then see what comes from the midterm break, extension, remote learning, etc. That will have them out while these cases are rising so they'll be safe then hopefully there will be a move to online for awhile on an extended break. The stress is too much and I don't feel like its responsible or safe putting them into an environment where most aren't wearing masks, there's stupid shít happening in the classroom with shared food/kids piling on top of each other/not keeping in their seats, windows being closed because "drafts" though the policy says they're supposed to wear coats-and last week I drove past the school while the kids are out in the yard and they appeared to be playing a game where they run after each other and tackle to the ground in a heap. Yes I had it out with the teacher. All that together with the facts being they can contract and spread at least as well as adults do it feels like it goes against any normal instinct as a parent to keep them in. I f-g hate this.

Its madness that its being left up to the individual family to decide. I still don't think anything will be done with schools, will be completely left up to people to decide what they want to do.

Mrsmum

appledrop wrote: »

I'll even make it easier for them.

They could just pick one or two schools + test EVERYBODY in the school from child to staff.

It would be very interesting to see how that works out.

To test everyone in a school where there is a case would, imo, be very useful. Even though I am pro schools staying open full time, unlike yourself I think, I see the sense in what you and others are saying in your posts. Basically at the end of the day we all need proper information that speaks to our own common sense. At the moment imo there is a vacuum and anxiety and worry and all sort of theories are naturally finding a home there for many if not all of us.
I would say though that NPHET are charged with keeping us safe and with bringing us out of this as well as possible, they are highly intelligent, logical and have all the real information at their fingertips. So it makes no sense to me why if they knew schools were a problem, why they would knowingly allow the virus to spread rapidly and turn a blind eye to it. Or why they would refuse to even consider schools as a major source. That doesn't make sense, does it ?

appledrop

Its actually very pro schools staying open believe it or not!

However I'm sick of hypocritical approach of one rule for everywhere else + different one for schools. NPHET sprouting on and on about reducing your contacts when you cant do that in school setting.

I want them open but open safely + if outbreaks/ cases are there then need to be closed for a while +everyone tested like all other sections of society.

Loafing Oaf

Mrsmum wrote: »

I would say though that NPHET are charged with keeping us safe and with bringing us out of this as well as possible, they are highly intelligent, logical and have all the real information at their fingertips. So it makes no sense to me why if they know schools are a problem, why they would knowingly allow the virus to spread rapidly and turn a blind eye to it. Or why they would refuse to even consider schools as a major source. That doesn't make sense, does it ?

Presumably the government has told them the schools are staying open no matter what and NPHET therefore sees no point in pressing the issue

Mrsmum

appledrop wrote: »

Its actually very pro schools staying open believe it or not!

Yes I see that.

Blondini

downthemiddle wrote: »

Can anyone explain to me why a student of 19 years of age is not considered a close contact if they are sitting 1 metre from an infected student but an Irish soccer international sitting 1.9 metres from a positive case is?

Covid knows it's a school so no problem. Statistics.

autumnbelle

I am sick with the thought of schools closing. During the first lockdown we were working from home and I feel my child’s learning will really really suffer

Icyseanfitz

autumnbelle wrote: »

I am sick with the thought of schools closing. During the first lockdown we were working from home and I feel my child’s learning will really really suffer

As much as i agree that remote learning will hurt children's learning, i am far more concerned about their health (unknown long term effects) and the health of their families, and of course my family too.

The_Brood

The facts are plain as day and stare us in the face - schools are causing the spread. But parents don't care, they don't want their kids at home. The government, who claim that they follow reason and science, completely and utterly ignore that schools are the big spreader, because their biggest fear is not Covid 19 but losing political power - which is what will happen if they do the right thing and close the schools and anger parents.

Let this never be forgotten.

lawrencesummers

irishblessing wrote: »

We're discussing tonight whether we are going to pull our kids from school. I'm of the mind to keep them at home the next two weeks and homeschool, then see what comes from the midterm break, extension, remote learning, etc. That will have them out while these cases are rising so they'll be safe then hopefully there will be a move to online for awhile on an extended break. The stress is too much and I don't feel like its responsible or safe putting them into an environment where most aren't wearing masks, there's stupid shít happening in the classroom with shared food/kids piling on top of each other/not keeping in their seats, windows being closed because "drafts" though the policy says they're supposed to wear coats-and last week I drove past the school while the kids are out in the yard and they appeared to be playing a game where they run after each other and tackle to the ground in a heap. Yes I had it out with the teacher. All that together with the facts being they can contract and spread at least as well as adults do it feels like it goes against any normal instinct as a parent to keep them in. I f-g hate this.

I’m in a not to dissimilar position, kids in school and have no faith in the ability of any school or the HSE to detect, eliminate or contain the spread of the virus.

But nobody in my house has other conditions that would have me worried about getting the virus. If anyone was suffering from an illness, or we had elderly people living with us I might think different, but honestly I’m not any more worried about contracting that than any other other spreadable disease that exits out there.

My 2cents, and I wouldn’t think either way of someone erred on the side of caution.

lawrencesummers

The_Brood wrote: »

The facts are plain as day and stare us in the face - schools are causing the spread. But parents don't care, they don't want their kids at home. The government, who claim that they follow reason and science, completely and utterly ignore that schools are the big spreader, because their biggest fear is not Covid 19 but losing political power - which is what will happen if they do the right thing and close the schools and anger parents.

Let this never be forgotten.

Horse sh1t.
Utter utter horse sh1t.

The_Brood

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Horse sh1t.
Utter utter horse sh1t.

If parents know the schools are the biggest spreader of the virus, and every logical human being should know this by this point, but still choose to send their children to school or at least voice displeasure over suggestions of keeping the schools closed, how exactly do you describe such parents? The government is scared to death of them and is about to lock us all down and make us all pay because of them. They don't care about the consequences, simple as.

virginmediapls

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Horse sh1t.
Utter utter horse sh1t.

He's actually completely correct.

It doesnt make any sense to think that schools arent a huge spreader here. Bunch of kids, confined space, lax on distancing...

Cognitive dissonance.

The_Brood

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I’m in a not to dissimilar position, kids in school and have no faith in the ability of any school or the HSE to detect, eliminate or contain the spread of the virus.

But nobody in my house has other conditions that would have me worried about getting the virus. If anyone was suffering from an illness, or we had elderly people living with us I might think different, but honestly I’m not any more worried about contracting that than any other other spreadable disease that exits out there.

My 2cents, and I wouldn’t think either way of someone erred on the side of caution.

Everyone in your household may have/have had the virus but never shown any symptoms and never even new they had it. Very common scenario. The problem is all the contacts you have outside the home is where it will spread exponentially and spread throughout society. This is the entire reason why this "invisible" virus is spreading so much, and why schools are the biggest threat.

khalessi

The_Brood wrote: »

The facts are plain as day and stare us in the face - schools are causing the spread. But parents don't care, they don't want their kids at home. The government, who claim that they follow reason and science, completely and utterly ignore that schools are the big spreader, because their biggest fear is not Covid 19 but losing political power - which is what will happen if they do the right thing and close the schools and anger parents.

Let this never be forgotten.

I totally do not agree that parents dont care. I feel that they are trusting the information from the government and HSE, but most are not aware of the studies into children being vectors. I think they reckon the government would not put their children in harms way. The few that are aware are the ones who are on the FB site and on here and regardless of how they feel about schools opening or closing, they are trying to make informed decisions.

It is a pity that the government has let them down in this regard by refusing to acknowledge the schools are vectors whether major or minor. By having a media black out they are stopping people making informed decisions and creating distrust and uncertainty.

mirrorwall14

I’ve said it before but I would strongly argue we shouldn’t be jumping from full open to full closures. There are a myriad of options being done in tons of locations around the world. Why are the DES not researching them? Why is there not different levels to match the levels in the country? It makes zero sense to me.

For example: Level four Second level move online. College students asked to remain where they are (be that college or at home and stop travelling). Level 5 All over tens move online (there is data to say under tens spread it less). Try and keep some kids in, the high risk, the children of front line staff etc.

Why jump schools from one extreme to the other when there is a staggered approach to the rest of the economy?

lawrencesummers

virginmediapls wrote: »

He's actually completely correct.

It doesnt make any sense to think that schools arent a huge spreader here. Bunch of kids, confined space, lax on distancing...

Cognitive dissonance.

Schools could well be spreaders, but that doesn’t mean parents don’t care

Icyseanfitz

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I’ve said it before but I would strongly argue we shouldn’t be jumping from full open to full closures. There are a myriad of options being done in tons of locations around the world. Why are the DES not researching them? Why is there not different levels to match the levels in the country? It makes zero sense to me.

For example: Level four Second level move online. College students asked to remain where they are (be that college or at home and stop travelling). Level 5 All over tens move online (there is data to say under tens spread it less). Try and keep some kids in, the high risk, the children of front line staff etc.

Why jump schools from one extreme to the other when there is a staggered approach to the rest of the economy?

It should have been in the reopening plan, many on here where aghast that there wasn't a hybrid plan in place. In my opinion its too late now, and the department won't adjust the plan as it would be tantamount to them admitting they reopened the schools in a dangerous and stupid manner. Personally don't see them closing or doing anything unless the Union's step in, and then it won't be the departments fault schools closed, it was those pesky unions again, #lazy teachers

meeeeh

khalessi wrote: »

I totally do not agree that parents dont care. I feel that they are trusting the information from the government and HSE, but most are not aware of the studies into children being vectors. I think they reckon the government would not put their children in harms way. The few that are aware are the ones who are on the FB site and on here and regardless of how they feel about schools opening or closing, they are trying to make informed decisions.

It is a pity that the government has let them down in this regard by refusing to acknowledge the schools are vectors whether major or minor. By having a media black out they are stopping people making informed decisions and creating distrust and uncertainty.

Don't patronise people. There us a thing weeny chance that people disagree with you because kids don't get overly affected by Covid not because they are misled by government.

There are experts who would lock us all up and there are experts who think Covid should be let rip among young. The biggest delusion is actually people thinking they are suddenly experts on Covid because they have kids in school or work in school. This thread has gone full Trump now. It's the experts who are lying, Facebook and Appledrop with his super analysis can tell us its definitely schools.

Icyseanfitz

meeeeh wrote: »

Don't patronise people. There us a thing weeny chance that people disagree with you because kids don't get overly affected by Covid not because they are misled by government.

There are experts who would lock us all up and there are experts who think Covid should be let rip among young. The biggest delusion is actually people thinking they are suddenly experts on Covid because they have kids in school or work in school. This thread has gone full Trump now. It's the experts who are lying, Facebook and Appledrop with his super analysis can tell us its definitely schools.

Link please? Rip among the young means rip through all age groups, because as you know, its contagious

meeeeh

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Link please? Rip among the young means rip through all age groups, because as you know, its contagious

Really? Would you think Oxford, Stafford and Harvard profesors were able to comprehend that? Again not everyone disagrees with you because they are stupid or misled.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/06/scientists-call-for-herd-immunity-covid-strategy-for-young

khalessi

meeeeh wrote: »

Don't patronise people. There us a thing weeny chance that people disagree with you because kids don't get overly affected by Covid not because they are misled by government.

There are experts who would lock us all up and there are experts who think Covid should be let rip among young. The biggest delusion is actually people thinking they are suddenly experts on Covid because they have kids in school or work in school. This thread has gone full Trump now. It's the experts who are lying, Facebook and Appledrop with his super analysis can tell us its definitely schools.

Why do you assume I am patronising people. That view says more about you than me.

Icyseanfitz

meeeeh wrote: »

Really? Would you think Oxford, Stafford and Garvald profesors were able to comprehend that? Again not everyone disagrees with you because they are stupid or misled.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/06/scientists-call-for-herd-immunity-covid-strategy-for-young

Herd immunity is not even proven to bloody exist for covid-19, but sure lets try that, working great for Sweden

meeeeh

khalessi wrote: »

Why do you assume I am patronising people. That view says more about you than me.

Because you think everyone who doesn't have same approach as you is misled by government.

Icyseanfitz

meeeeh wrote: »

Because you think everyone who doesn't have same approach as you is WRONG by government.

I mean we could say the same about you not even entertaining the idea that schools could be one of the primary drivers

meeeeh

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Herd immunity is not even proven to bloody exist for covid-19, but sure lets try that, working great for Sweden

I didn't say we should, I said there are vastly different opinions among experts. You are welcome to argue with them. My point is that people with much better knowledge than you and me disagree among themselves.