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Schools closed until February? (part 3)
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Smacruairi wrote: »Your 2 sentences here don't go together at all. People wanted a unified remote plan to prevent variability in quality. Sigh.
The second sentence was referring to the US and Canada, not Ireland.0 -
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Smacruairi wrote: »I know, but it either shows why a unified plan was a necessity, or your point about Canada etc was not relevant. Which one?
I don't think a unified plan was necessary here to be honest. I think in the case of an emergency, like a case in a class requiring the class to be off for a couple of weeks, the school should do the best they can given their individual circumstances (availability of broadband in the area etc). The other poster brought up the US and Canada, my point was really just that I doubt it is all good over there, some schools doing well and others not. I don't think it has any relevance to Ireland at all.0 -
Smacruairi wrote: »I know, but it either shows why a unified plan was a necessity, or your point about Canada etc was not relevant. Which one?
A unified plan doesn't work when schools cater very different demographic. The only unified plan that half works in that case is all schools open and everyone in schools. Anything less and differences between schools that already exist get amplified.
I haven't seen any educational expert who would look for school closures or partial school closures unless it is absolutely necessary. It is pretty clear that economic model in US and low social security means schools have to be sacrificed so that as much of economy as possible stays open. That sacrifice is not needed in Ireland at the moment so calls for combined education don't benefit anybody.0 -
It is pretty clear that economic model in US and low social security means schools have to be sacrificed so that as much of economy as possible stays open. That sacrifice is not needed in Ireland at the moment so calls for combined education don't benefit anybody.
Would the opposite approach not be the way to go to keep the economy open.
Like we are doing?0 -
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. That sacrifice is not needed in Ireland at the moment so calls for combined education don't benefit anybody.
Tell that to the very high risk students who are not in attendance at school at the moment, or the ones who are self isolating for 2 weeks, or those who are opting out owing to parents in very high risk brackets. But hey, if you say so, for the greater good it's not even worth trying, right.0 -
Smacruairi wrote: »Tell that to the very high risk students who are not in attendance at school at the moment, or the ones who are self isolating for 2 weeks, or those who are opting out owing to parents in very high risk brackets. But hey, if you say so, for the greater good it's not even worth trying, right.
To get a unified remote learning plan in place it would have required either the department and teachers working during the summer to come up with something, or pushing out the start of the school year. I would imagine the first option was off the cards and the second option isn't great for other reasons.0 -
To get a unified remote learning plan in place it would have required either the department and teachers working during the summer to come up with something, or pushing out the start of the school year. I would imagine the first option was off the cards and the second option isn't great for other reasons.
The DES works through the summer. They are not teachers and their contracts are clearly not based off the teaching model. So I don't know why you are defending that as a reason.
No need to push out the start of the school year at all, are you mad? Why are you happy with such incompetence from the govt?
You were happy to lambast a school in Carlow based on fake news, but now you think the DES needs more than 6 months to come up with a remote plan to assist those at most risk and need?0 -
Smacruairi wrote: »The DES works through the summer. They are not teachers and their contracts are clearly not based off the teaching model. So I don't know why you are defending that as a reason.
No need to push out the start of the school year at all, are you mad? Why are you happy with such incompetence from the govt?
You were happy to lambast a school in Carlow based on fake news, but now you think the DES needs more than 6 months to come up with a remote plan to assist those at most risk and need?
I think it is very difficult for the state (different governments come and go) to get their employees to do anything different than what they currently do. We don't see much in the way of innovation here, that is why we have the current level of services. I have a very low expectation based on experience and so from that point of view I am not disappointed.
I have no idea what you mean about the school in Carlow.
My childs school were off for 2 weeks due to a case, I think they handled the remote learning reasonably well in that time. No idea if they have been given direction from the DES. If not, they have used their own imagination and come up with something themselves without waiting for a circular from the department.
Some schools managed to do well with the remote learning initially as well, I believe the institute of education were streaming classes. The teachers there probably have a different level of motivation though and there would be a lot more expectation on them. It wouldn't be acceptable to hang around waiting for a circular while enjoying the lovely sunshine I suppose.0 -
Multiple Covid-19 cases have been confirmed at a school in Co Galway.
An urgent letter was sent to parents and guardians at the school by the HSE last Friday.
They were told that all close contacts of the cases had been contacted.0 -
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Smacruairi wrote: »Tell that to the very high risk students who are not in attendance at school at the moment, or the ones who are self isolating for 2 weeks, or those who are opting out owing to parents in very high risk brackets. But hey, if you say so, for the greater good it's not even worth trying, right.
There are students who are not in attendance any year and the high risk students can be taken care of in the same way. Remote learning channels for the classes that need to be home should be set up but it's up to the class teacher to adapt the study programme to what class actually needs. Proper remote learning set up is only needed if everyone is off and should be implemented if there is another total lockdown.
However the greater good is making sure as many as possible are in school. I certainly wouldn't encourage remote learning.0 -
I think it is very difficult for the state (different governments come and go) to get their employees to do anything different than what they currently do. We don't see much in the way of innovation here, that is why we have the current level of services. I have a very low expectation based on experience and so from that point of view I am not disappointed.
I have no idea what you mean about the school in Carlow.
My childs school were off for 2 weeks due to a case, I think they handled the remote learning reasonably well in that time. No idea if they have been given direction from the DES. If not, they have used their own imagination and come up with something themselves without waiting for a circular from the department.
Some schools managed to do well with the remote learning initially as well, I believe the institute of education were streaming classes. The teachers there probably have a different level of motivation though and there would be a lot more expectation on them. It wouldn't be acceptable to hang around waiting for a circular while enjoying the lovely sunshine I suppose.
Your first paragraph is nonsense. We put together a few different versions of "living with covid", installed new testing regime, pup payment etc. That was all done practically over night. There was a will and it was done, so no, I don't accept your opinion that "we don't do innovation".
Carlow was referring to meeeh, unless you are claiming to be posting on their behalf.
Came up with something themselves, fair play to your school, good to hear and you were happy. Until a diff school does something else and you want that too, or if the arrangements your school made were not good enough for anther family - you need a unified standard.
Institute of education isn't a school, pays its teachers far more than the DES, has far different expectations for instruction, doesn't do parental input or ptms... So do you want to pay every teacher more and lessen student and parent input? Go ahead, be my guest.0 -
Smacruairi wrote: »Your first paragraph is nonsense. We put together a few different versions of "living with covid", installed new testing regime, pup payment etc. That was all done practically over night. There was a will and it was done, so no, I don't accept your opinion that "we don't do innovation".
Carlow was referring to meeeh, unless you are claiming to be posting on their behalf.
Came up with something themselves, fair play to your school, good to hear and you were happy. Until a diff school does something else and you want that too, or if the arrangements your school made were not good enough for anther family - you need a unified standard.
Institute of education isn't a school, pays its teachers far more than the DES, has far different expectations for instruction, doesn't do parental input or ptms... So do you want to pay every teacher more and lessen student and parent input? Go ahead, be my guest.
You quoted me in a post and stated "You were happy to lambast a school in Carlow based on fake news". It certainly wasn't clear than you meant meeh.
Why would we pay all teachers more to compete with the institute? They try to attract the best and pay them accordingly.0 -
It was tried, it didn't work out well. If there had been more effort, maybe there wouldn't be so much resistance to it now. There was no official evaluation of how it went as I would imagine it would not look good on schools/teachers.
This is really funny.
Biggest issue we faced was student engagement. This and a lack of devices in houses with more than one child of school-going age.
Repeated efforts by school to get parents on board, and students too.
Most of ours took the break as an early holiday.
But you know. Blame teachers, same crap in carlow last week and all journalists do is delete tweets and move on.
Teachers won't ever be viewed as front line workers or will any be given any credit for adapting to an online approach overnight.
To be honest, I wouldn't want positive comment from the public, as most haven't a clue what goes on.
Just follow what Ciara Kelly says, be grand.0 -
Some schools managed to do well with the remote learning initially as well, I believe the institute of education were streaming classes.
The teachers there probably have a different level of motivation though and there would be a lot more expectation on them. It wouldn't be acceptable to hang around waiting for a circular while enjoying the lovely sunshine I suppose.
You mention the institute as an example of a school who streams well. I'm telling you they don't abide by DES structures.
You also then stated that they wouldn't wait for a circular... That's again because they don't abide by DES structures.
So, please don't point to a grind school, which pretty much everyone has agreed are a terrible influence on Irish education, as some sort of silver bullet.0 -
jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »This is really funny.
Biggest issue we faced was student engagement. This and a lack of devices in houses with more than one child of school-going age.
Repeated efforts by school to get parents on board, and students too.
Most of ours took the break as an early holiday.
But you know. Blame teachers, same crap in carlow last week and all journalists do is delete tweets and move on.
Teachers won't ever be viewed as front line workers or will any be given any credit for adapting to an online approach overnight.
To be honest, I wouldn't want positive comment from the public, as most haven't a clue what goes on.
Just follow what Ciara Kelly says, be grand.
I think a lot of people just expect teachers to do their job, nothing more. Teaching unions are also viewed as quite difficult and continuously complaining. This is where the impression people get of the teaching profession comes from. The latest example was the TUI representative looking to finish early due to teacher fatigue. This type of thing has been going on since long before Ciara Kelly has been on the scene.
It seems to me that teachers seek validation and a pat on the back from everyone. There is a sense of jealousy I think with how medical workers are treated differently. Yesterday a few were quick to post about how doctors were striking in January. Doctors and nurses concerns/complaints are viewed differently because they put up with brutal working hours (especially doctors) and they for the most part stoically put up with it. When they do complain it is viewed differently as we don't expect to see it every easter as we do with the teaching profession.0 -
Smacruairi wrote: »Carlow was referring to meeeh, unless you are claiming to be posting on their behalf.
That wasn't clear at all considering you quoted HerrKuehn I didn't realise that was referring to me either so maybe a bit less snottiness and more clarity would be helpful.
As for Carlow I'm not going into it here but to me it just illustrated unhealthy obsession with how kids dress in Irish schools (I grew up in a country where our wardrobes weren't policed but then we also don't have the history of abuse of children and women Ireland has. So my opinionon on this stands. ).0 -
Stateofyou wrote: »I know not everyone could enjoy the good weather, and I didn't say that everyone could. I said I remembered many parents were home.
I have family in the US and Canada. Their early school shutdown situations sounded very similar to ours. The difference being about 2 months later their DES's pulled their heads out of their ar$e's and implemented hybrid remote learning plans with IT/tech rollouts. They're not perfect but they're much better and families/teachers especially those at more high risk have more choice.
Many parents were home agreed, but alot (very luckily I add!) working from home but didnt get to loll about in the sunshine unfortunately! I hear different stories about the US, my colleague has to put his 5 & 7yr old in front of a screen at 9 am for roll call. He's lucky if they lasts 20 mins but he has a tutor come in later for both of them to ensure they don't fall behind. He says most of his friends doing same & a lot are sharing tutors as well, so highly I doubt its working that well for those who cant afford that TBH. Maybe older kids I guess who are self motivated it would work with I dont know.0 -
I think a lot of people just expect teachers to do their job, nothing more. Teaching unions are also viewed as quite difficult and continuously complaining. This is where the impression people get of the teaching profession comes from. The latest example was the TUI representative looking to finish early due to teacher fatigue. This type of thing has been going on since long before Ciara Kelly has been on the scene.
It seems to me that teachers seek validation and a pat on the back from everyone. There is a sense of jealousy I think with how medical workers are treated differently. Yesterday a few were quick to post about how doctors were striking in January. Doctors and nurses concerns/complaints are viewed differently because they put up with brutal working hours (especially doctors) and they for the most part stoically put up with it. When they do complain it is viewed differently as we don't expect to see it every easter as we do with the teaching profession.
Disagree. You saw a thread immediately pop up when teachers said they were only balloting. Doctors say they will actually 3 day strike and there is not a whisper here.
Teacher unions ballot for safe working conditions that effect students, support staff, and teachers, along with removal of 2 tier system. Queue 1000 posts about teachers and how they have it.
Doctors want to be paid as consultants, that's it. No changes to working conditions, just more money. Not a thread at all.
If u don't see a discrepancy then I'm sorry,your bias is showing. That's OK as the media engage in it too, but don't pretend this isn't a thing.
Ciara used to be a doctor... Did you know that...0 -
Smacruairi wrote: »Disagree. You saw a thread immediately pop up when teachers said they were only balloting. Doctors say they will actually 3 day strike and there is not a whisper here.
Teacher unions ballot for safe working conditions that effect students, support staff, and teachers, along with removal of 2 tier system. Queue 1000 posts about teachers and how they have it.
Doctors want to be paid as consultants, that's it. No changes to working conditions, just more money. Not a thread at all.
If u don't see a discrepancy then I'm sorry,your bias is showing. That's OK as the media engage in it too, but don't pretend this isn't a thing.
Ciara used to be a doctor... Did you know that...
I am not sure why teachers have such an obsession with Ciara Kelly, I don't listen to the radio so I have no idea what her opinions are. The only surprise with teachers balloting was that it was so soon. If teaching unions were infrequently complaining then I think they would get the benefit of the doubt, but it is a bit like the boy who cried wolf.0 -
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Smacruairi wrote: »You mention the institute as an example of a school who streams well. I'm telling you they don't abide by DES structures.
You also then stated that they wouldn't wait for a circular... That's again because they don't abide by DES structures.
So, please don't point to a grind school, which pretty much everyone has agreed are a terrible influence on Irish education, as some sort of silver bullet.
Whatever you might think about the relative merits of a grind school, the fact that the institute teachers were able to stream classes with no particular issues should be noted.
Whether or not the teachers there are members of a union is kind of neither here nor there. Clearly they would have been prevented from streaming classes if they had been members of the union, but I don't think you are saying that the majority of teachers wanted to stream classes but were prevented from doing so by their union.
it is a good example of how streaming classes can work, and how putting the student at the centre of any decision of how to teach remotely is the right thing to do.
I do realise that students who attend grind schools are generally more motivated - either self motivated or motivated by their parents - to pay attention and not to disrupt classes. And it is only an example of a fifth and sixth year class. But still, it's nice to see a decision made to remotely teach in a manner that is of the most benefit to the pupil, rather than in a manner that minimises any perceived risk to the data rights of the teacher.0 -
Whatever you might think about the relative merits of a grind school, the fact that the institute teachers were able to stream classes with no particular issues should be noted.
Whether or not the teachers there are members of a union is kind of neither here nor there. Clearly they would have been prevented from streaming classes if they had been members of the union, but I don't think you are saying that the majority of teachers wanted to stream classes but were prevented from doing so by their union.
it is a good example of how streaming classes can work, and how putting the student at the centre of any decision of how to teach remotely is the right thing to do.
I do realise that students who attend grind schools are generally more motivated - either self motivated or motivated by their parents - to pay attention and not to disrupt classes. And it is only an example of a fifth and sixth year class. But still, it's nice to see a decision made to remotely teach in a manner that is of the most benefit to the pupil, rather than in a manner that minimises any perceived risk to the data rights of the teacher.
As you point out grind schools students could be more motivated but they also would have access to technology not available to everyone. As has been pointed out one of the biggest issues with remote learning is actually the infrastructure. You could have one laptop in a family and a mumber of children needing to use it and a parent wfh needing it.
It is actually not to do with the data rights of teachers. That was an issue but a minor one, but it is an easy hat to hang the issue on rather than deal with technology issues and access issues to a good broadband and supporting technology. The major one was a broadband that would not support mass learning and people not having access to tech and kids trying to write essays on phones.0 -
Whatever you might think about the relative merits of a grind school, the fact that the institute teachers were able to stream classes with no particular issues should be noted.
To the well-off in an urban area?
Come out to the countryside or go to a DEIS school, use the same teachers and pretend not to be shocked when the same approach doesn't work.
Jesus Christ0 -
Whatever you might think about the relative merits of a grind school, the fact that the institute teachers were able to stream classes with no particular issues should be noted.
Whether or not the teachers there are members of a union is kind of neither here nor there. Clearly they would have been prevented from streaming classes if they had been members of the union, but I don't think you are saying that the majority of teachers wanted to stream classes but were prevented from doing so by their union.
it is a good example of how streaming classes can work, and how putting the student at the centre of any decision of how to teach remotely is the right thing to do.
I do realise that students who attend grind schools are generally more motivated - either self motivated or motivated by their parents - to pay attention and not to disrupt classes. And it is only an example of a fifth and sixth year class. But still, it's nice to see a decision made to remotely teach in a manner that is of the most benefit to the pupil, rather than in a manner that minimises any perceived risk to the data rights of the teacher.
You completely missed the point of why a unified platform is so important. Well done, that was outstanding.
I agree with you, streaming is possible, but I have no idea why you went on a rant about unions and GDPR when the main problem is that the DES said "nothing to do with us".
Wow, just wow.0 -
I think a lot of people just expect teachers to do their job, nothing more. Teaching unions are also viewed as quite difficult and continuously complaining. This is where the impression people get of the teaching profession comes from. The latest example was the TUI representative looking to finish early due to teacher fatigue. This type of thing has been going on since long before Ciara Kelly has been on the scene.
It seems to me that teachers seek validation and a pat on the back from everyone. There is a sense of jealousy I think with how medical workers are treated differently. Yesterday a few were quick to post about how doctors were striking in January. Doctors and nurses concerns/complaints are viewed differently because they put up with brutal working hours (especially doctors) and they for the most part stoically put up with it. When they do complain it is viewed differently as we don't expect to see it every easter as we do with the teaching profession.
I disagree with you. Teachers just want to be left to do their job but there are plenty out there who because they were students in a class once think they have the experience to tell them how to do it. There are many posts on the multiple threads on boards as testament to that.
Unions are supposed to be difficult but the Dept see our unions as a soft as they fold on nearly everything.
Having worked in both education and health there is no jealousy either direction as both are busy doing their jobs, such a silly thing to say. As regards the TUI rep that suggestion was first made by a TD and then the TUI rep was asked about it and also mentioned he had not consulted with his members.
THe joke about yesterday's post was that people here will set up a thread to slag off teachers at the drop of a hat but no one will do it about any other profession, in that case doctors.
Teachers dont complain every Easter, they have an AGM taking place during their holidays, and issues are raised, how they are portrayed in papers is not in their control.
It is interesting that these "complaints are often about poor infrastructure, or inproving education for children or in recent times making it safer to keep schools open but people refer to it as complaining. I often wonder if this is because teaching is a female dominant profession while healthcare has a much higher percentage of males. It is easier to pass it off as complaining as then it does not have to be dealt with, a weak response.0 -
And that's exactly why combimbined or remote learning shouldn't be encouraged. Yes when there is no other choice but otherwise no.jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »To the well-off in an urban area?
Come out to the countryside or go to a DEIS school, use the same teachers and pretend not to be shocked when the same approach doesn't work.
Jesus Christ0 -
Teachers dont complain every Easter, they have an AGM taking place during their holidays, and issues are raised, how they are portrayed in papers is not in their control..
All that anyone remembers from those AGMs is that another minister was heckled and shouted at. You can't blame media if your members behave in the way that will attract all the wrong attention.0 -
All that anyone remembers from those AGMs is that another minister was heckled and shouted at. You can't blame media if your members behave in the way that will attract all the wrong attention.
I've been to two congresses and no heckling at either. Yes it has happened but not all the time.
Only motions that the media consider "juicy" get reported on. The likes of one that we are working on in our branch for next year in relation to SEN allocation won't be reported on as it won't elicit clicks on their social media platforms and website which equate to advertising revenue.0 -
I disagree with you. Teachers just want to be left to do their job but there are plenty out there who because they were students in a class once think they have the experience to tell them how to do it. There are many posts on the multiple threads on boards as testament to that.
Unions are supposed to be difficult but the Dept see our unions as a soft as they fold on nearly everything.
Having worked in both education and health there is no jealousy either direction as both are busy doing their jobs, such a silly thing to say. As regards the TUI rep that suggestion was first made by a TD and then the TUI rep was asked about it and also mentioned he had not consulted with his members.
THe joke about yesterday's post was that people here will set up a thread to slag off teachers at the drop of a hat but no one will do it about any other profession, in that case doctors.
Teachers dont complain every Easter, they have an AGM taking place during their holidays, and issues are raised, how they are portrayed in papers is not in their control.
It is interesting that these "complaints are often about poor infrastructure, or inproving education for children or in recent times making it safer to keep schools open but people refer to it as complaining. I often wonder if this is because teaching is a female dominant profession while healthcare has a much higher percentage of males. It is easier to pass it off as complaining as then it does not have to be dealt with, a weak response.
On the first point, bring it up with those who try to tell you how to do your job.
Teaching unions were relatively stronger during the bubble, we had a government which had a lot of one off taxes from house construction and it wanted to avoid any sort of conflict. The teaching unions took full advantage of this at the time. Later the bubble obviously collapsed and so did the revenue that the government was using to pay you. This is where your 2 tier pay is coming from. This is also the time that people remember most with the teaching unions, remember Joe O'Toole's "Benchmark the ATM that keeps giving"? Do you think people have short memories? If you want to be perceived in a particular way, maybe act better?
With respect to the TUI rep, it is up to the union members to pick reps that they think best represent their interests. It isn't up to others to guess what the members are actually thinking.
Yes, the AGM at easter is a very public complaint fest, reported on by the media. If you don't like how that presents you, maybe do it in private?
If your theory about teaching being a female profession was correct, you would expect that nursing which is also mostly female would have the same perception. It doesn't though, nurses are almost universally well regarded and highly respected.0 -
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On the first point, bring it up with those who try to tell you how to do your job.
Teaching unions were relatively stronger during the bubble, we had a government which had a lot of one off taxes from house construction and it wanted to avoid any sort of conflict. The teaching unions took full advantage of this at the time. Later the bubble obviously collapsed and so did the revenue that the government was using to pay you. This is where your 2 tier pay is coming from. This is also the time that people remember most with the teaching unions, remember Joe O'Toole's "Benchmark the ATM that keeps giving"? Do you think people have short memories? If you want to be perceived in a particular way, maybe act better?
With respect to the TUI rep, it is up to the union members to pick reps that they think best represent their interests. It isn't up to others to guess what the members are actually thinking.
Yes, the AGM at easter is a very public complaint fest, reported on by the media. If you don't like how that presents you, maybe do it in private?
If your theory about teaching being a female profession was correct, you would expect that nursing which is also mostly female would have the same perception. It doesn't though, nurses are almost universally well regarded and highly respected.
That TUI rep was not picked by members. It was a publically advertised job that he applied for. His performance on that radio show was appalling.
Perceptions of teachers are quite poor, for what reason I'm not sure, but I do contend most of the general public have no concept of what the job entails and only see it through their own memories or through their children's eyes. The prevalence of media bias towards teachers, as exemplified by what happened that school in Carlow, also has a role to play.
If the AGMs were private we would be accused of having something to hide.0
This discussion has been closed.
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