Administrative Officer 2020 in the Civil Service

John Hutton

Ravelleman wrote: »

That's not right either.

The information booklet attached to this thread says first- or second-class primary honours degree.

However, if I recall correctly, the ICT AO positions advertised a while back required only a Level 7 qualification. I don't know if there was any grade requirement.

In the past, AO general stream just said honours degree. Maybe that's changed.

ddpas

Anyone else praying for news tomorrow?? 😄

Ravelleman

John Hutton wrote: »

In the past, AO general stream just said honours degree. Maybe that's changed.

It has been like that since the 2015 competition at least.

In this case 'honours degree' refers to the number of credits taken over the course of the degree programme, rather than the result.

Anyhow, I make the point as these megathreads inevitably become reference points in future competitions so it is good that eligibility is clear.

doc22

Ravelleman wrote: »

It has been like that since the 2015 competition at least.

In this case 'honours degree' refers to the number of credits taken over the course of the degree programme, rather than the result.

Anyhow, I make the point as these megathreads inevitably become reference points in future competitions so it is good that eligibility is clear.

What does that mean? my interpretation is an honours degree >45 3rd class,>50 2.2(second class),>60 2.1(second class),>70 1.1(first class) and a pass degree would be between 40-45 or if you had to repeat modules you'd lose your honours status in some ITs.

Honours degrees have 180, 240 or 300 credits(medicine) so going by number of credits taken makes zero sense.

PhoenixParker

doc22 wrote: »

What does that mean? my interpretation is an honours degree >45 3rd class,>50 2.2(second class),>60 2.1(second class),>70 1.1(first class) and a pass degree would be between 40-45 or if you had to repeat modules you'd lose your honours status in some ITs.

Honours degrees have 180, 240 or 300 credits(medicine) so going by number of credits taken makes zero sense.

It means a level 8 degree on the national qualifications framework rather than a level 7 degree. Typically requires 4 years of study vs 3 for an "ordinary" degree.

https://www.courses.ie/national-framework-qualifications-nfq-explained/#

mmerton365

My understanding is a minimum of a 2.2 in a level 8 honours degree.

Pretty straightforward.

splashuum

A pass degree at level 8 would NOT suffice.

mmerton365

splashuum wrote: »

A pass degree at level 8 would NOT suffice.

Correct. 2.2 Minimum.

yop_mayo

ddpas wrote: »

Anyone else praying for news tomorrow?? 😄

Yup

Does anyone know from competitions past if particular streams move faster than others?

November Golf

Ravelleman wrote: »

It has been like that since the 2015 competition at least.

In this case 'honours degree' refers to the number of credits takenover the course of the degree programme, rather than the result.

Anyhow, I make the point as these megathreads inevitably become reference points in future competitions so it is good that eligibility is clear.

Thats not true, an honours degree is a degree conferred with honours at level 8 (i.e: First Class Honours, Second Class Honour grade 1, Second Class Honours grade 2 and in Universities Third Class Honours). If a person only passed their Honour Bachelor Degree, they cannot claim to hold an honour degree regardless of how many credits they have.

In any event, a honours degree is awarded on the final year exams whether you do;

• A three or four year Honours Bachelors Degree (ab initio),
• A one year add-on to a Level 7 Ordinary Degree, or
• A one year Higher Diploma to change discipline

Ravelleman

doc22 wrote: »

What does that mean? my interpretation is an honours degree >45 3rd class,>50 2.2(second class),>60 2.1(second class),>70 1.1(first class) and a pass degree would be between 40-45 or if you had to repeat modules you'd lose your honours status in some ITs.

Honours degrees have 180, 240 or 300 credits(medicine) so going by number of credits taken makes zero sense.

Mike Foxtrot wrote: »

Thats not true, an honours degree is a degree conferred with honours at level 8 (i.e: First Class Honours, Second Class Honour grade 1, Second Class Honours grade 2 and in Universities Third Class Honours). If a person only passed their Honour Bachelor Degree, they cannot claim to hold an honour degree regardless of how many credits they have.

In any event, a honours degree is awarded on the final year exams whether you do;

• A three or four year Honours Bachelors Degree (ab initio),
• A one year add-on to a Level 7 Ordinary Degree, or
• A one year Higher Diploma to change discipline

When the Bologna system was being implemented in Ireland, it was recognised that there were two sub-types of Bachelor's Degree here: Ordinary and Honours. These were both classified as first-cycle higher education programmes under the Bologna system and conferred Level 7 and Level 8 respectively. They are differentiated both by number of credits (180 and 180-240 respectively) and by learning outcomes. Ordinary Bachelor's Degrees did not typically allow direct access to second-cycle higher education programmes, whereas Honours Bachelor's Degrees did (I believe his is still the case with Levels 7 and 8). Medicine, dentistry, veterinary and architecture were exceptions to this at the time in terms of length and credits but were nevertheless pegged at Level 8.

The terms 'Ordinary' and 'Honours' have fallen away somewhat since the Levels were established. To further complicate matters, many institutions that did not traditionally award degrees of a certain level have now also diversified their offerings to include options at the different levels.

In some universities, such as TCD, one could essentially 'cash out' a degree a year early to receive an Ordinary Bachelor's Degree, instead of the Honours Bachelor's Degree envisaged at time of entry to the programme. My understanding is that this was the mechanism that allowed an Ordinary Bachelor's Degree to be awarded if a candidate fails to pass final exams in an Honours Bachelor's Degree and achieve Third-Class Honours (what was the lowest grade).

I believe that the grading of degree classifications (i.e. first, 2.1, 2.2...) to which you both refer is a parallel system which took hold in Ireland and the UK over the course of the twentieth century. This is reasonably arbitrary and has fluctuated over time: for example, it was possible to get fourth-class honours in Oxford until the 1970s, while for some degrees, such as the PhD, classifications never took hold at all.

The point Mike Foxtrot raise about final exams is an interesting one though. If you look back through the threads from previous years, there is usually a query around eligibility from someone who has achieved Level 8 or higher through some means other than a primary degree ('primary degree' is the term PAS uses in the eligibility section of the 2020 booklet and I take this to mean a degree which did not require any study at degree level to determine entry into the programme). To be honest, I don't know what the answer was to these queries. If you do a Level 7 + the extra year to reach Level 8, are you eligible?

So, anyway, based on this lengthy and belaboured introspection, we have established that you must have a 2.2 minimum in a primary degree of at least Level 8, which is precisely what it says in the booklet. I am not suggesting that PAS bean counters will add up the number of credits a person has taken after they apply.

exitstageleft

I sometimes wonder if people from PAS ever check these forums and think, "Ha, suckers, you've no idea how it works - your guesses are way off!"

PhoenixParker

exitstageleft wrote: »

I sometimes wonder if people from PAS ever check these forums and think, "Ha, suckers, you've no idea how it works - your guesses are way off!"

They probably just sit there silently screaming "read the information booklet you idiots"

floorpie

I've noticed in these threads that people contact PAS to ask about the state of a panel, what number they're on, what departments are making requests etc.

Are we permitted to know this stuff or are posters just chancing their arm?

Ravelleman

floorpie wrote: »

I've noticed in these threads that people contact PAS to ask about the state of a panel, what number they're on, what departments are making requests etc.

Are we permitted to know this stuff or are posters just chancing their arm?

PAS certainly will give you information about the number of people that remain ahead of you on a panel. They don't typically give any time estimates for appointment though. In my experience, they have been cagey about departments too but others might have found it different.

ddpas

Does anyone remember if we’ve already submitted our referees at some stage in the process? Or do give those details only if we’re contacted for clearance

yop_mayo

ddpas wrote: »

Does anyone remember if we’ve already submitted our referees at some stage in the process? Or do give those details only if we’re contacted for clearance

You only submit if contacted about a position.

Valresnick

They might move up the panels quicker if people spoofed about their degree results. I’m 732 with a first class hons 😂

2020Survivor

Does anyone, that actually knows what they are talking about, know if PAS has started calling people off the panel for this competition yet? Has anyone contacted PAS? I saw on the 2019 AO competition thread that people were still being called from the 2019 panel in November and there was a post there yesterday asking about clearance times for Batch 3 like they still think that panel is in use, but then the internet doesn’t refuse bull****.....

People were notified of their OOM for this competition on 17th December and the results of the 2019 competition came out on 11th November 2019 with people claiming to be going through the clearance process on 4th December 2019, so the panel created on 17th December 2020 should have, in theory, replaced the 2019 panel with any vacancies being filled now should be from the 2020 panel, right?

ddpas

2020Survivor wrote: »

Does anyone, that actually knows what they are talking about, know if PAS has started calling people off the panel for this competition yet? Has anyone contacted PAS? I saw on the 2019 AO competition thread that people were still being called from the 2019 panel in November and there was a post there yesterday asking about clearance times for Batch 3 like they still think that panel is in use, but then the internet doesn’t refuse bull****.....

People were notified of their OOM for this competition on 17th December and the results of the 2019 competition came out on 11th November 2019 with people claiming to be going through the clearance process on 4th December 2019, so the panel created on 17th December 2020 should have, in theory, replaced the 2019 panel with any vacancies being filled now should be from the 2020 panel, right?

Any chance you could link that 2019 thread here? Can’t seem to find the posts you’re talking about!

On your questions, I don’t know much about this at all, sorry.. but I’m top 5 in specialised stream and haven’t been contacted yet

2020Survivor

ddpas wrote: »

Any chance you could link that 2019 thread here? Can’t seem to find the posts you’re talking about!

On your questions, I don’t know much about this at all, sorry.. but I’m top 5 in specialised stream and haven’t been contacted yet

I just got a warning saying because I’m a new user I can’t post “with images, URLs or attachments”. If you Google “2019 AO Competition announced” it should come up.

Ok. Thanks for the info.

It’s a bit annoying that for the last 3 weeks there hasn’t been any/much movement on the panel and that is 3 weeks out of the 52 that this panel is likely to be in existence down the drain.

haleyoshea

Does anyone in the general stream have any updates

ddpas

2020Survivor wrote: »

I just got a warning saying because I’m a new user I can’t post “with images, URLs or attachments”. If you Google “2019 AO Competition announced” it should come up.

Ok. Thanks for the info.

It’s a bit annoying that for the last 3 weeks there hasn’t been any/much movement on the panel and that is 3 weeks out of the 52 that this panel is likely to be in existence down the drain.

Ahh found it thanks, I had been looking at a different thread on the AO 2019 panel.. hopefully it'll let me link the one you're talking about here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showthread.php?t=2058019619&page=31

Yeah I agree it is annoying.. the lack of clarity on the situation is very frustrating, hard to know whether to be optimistic or not

2020Survivor

With the fact PAS got to a third batch of interviewees last year and the fact that retirements are still expected to continue at a pretty high rate for a few years to come yet, for the source I’m afraid you’ll need to Google “Projected Retirements from the Civil Service from 2019 to 2028” for yourself and skip down to page 20, as this stupid new member status doesn’t allow me to post URL’s. It’s so bad, I couldn’t even reply to your post with the URL in that you posted! Crazy

Also look at page 14 and look at the percentages expected to retire at AO, HEO and AP and you’ll get an idea of how likely, but not a guarantee, it is that PAS will not only get through this batch but need to go back for further batches, so it should be just a waiting game.

Those figures are only projection though and with the change a couple of years ago to the retirement age some people many not go that would have had to have gone under the previous rules for their pension scheme. I’d still be expecting it to be just a matter of time. We’re in the first batch at least, it would be far more frustrating if we were in the last batch and the panel was due to expire any day now.

Minifox

2020Survivor wrote: »

Does anyone, that actually knows what they are talking about, know if PAS has started calling people off the panel for this competition yet? Has anyone contacted PAS? I saw on the 2019 AO competition thread that people were still being called from the 2019 panel in November and there was a post there yesterday asking about clearance times for Batch 3 like they still think that panel is in use, but then the internet doesn’t refuse bull****.....

People were notified of their OOM for this competition on 17th December and the results of the 2019 competition came out on 11th November 2019 with people claiming to be going through the clearance process on 4th December 2019, so the panel created on 17th December 2020 should have, in theory, replaced the 2019 panel with any vacancies being filled now should be from the 2020 panel, right?

The 2019 panel was dissolved on December 17, so all new vacancies will be filled from 2020 panel. However, even after being offerend a position you still have to go through vetting clearance. It is this vetting that the post you mention refers to. In other words, it is not that people are being drawn from the 2019 panel, it is that some of the people who were drawn from this panel are still being vetted.

exitstageleft

Does anyone know exactly how the batches work?


For instance, is everyone called to interview placed on an order of merit and that makes up the batch? Or is there a requirement to meet a certain standard in the interview?

If that's the case, the standard is either set either by some curve system (ie: the highest 25 people in each batch of interviewees) or a particular mark (which means different numbers in each batch).


Basically, I'm wondering from which stage the people from batch 2+ are drawn.

The_Conductor

exitstageleft wrote: »

Does anyone know exactly how the batches work?


For instance, is everyone called to interview placed on an order of merit and that makes up the batch? Or is there a requirement to meet a certain standard in the interview?

If that's the case, the standard is either set either by some curve system (ie: the highest 25 people in each batch of interviewees) or a particular mark (which means different numbers in each batch).


Basically, I'm wondering from which stage the people from batch 2+ are drawn.

Batches are invited to interview based on their order of merit in the online tests. At interview you are marked on each of the competencies associated with the post. You must pass each competency. Once you have passed each competency, the marks for each competency are added up, and these make up your new score from which a new order of merit is determined (your original score in the online tests no longer features).

If you fail any of the competencies at interview- you are out- regardless of how well you do in the other competencies.

Its not unusual for upwards of a third of those interviewed to fail the interview.

The various batches being interviewed are scored at interview and given a place on the panel based on their interview scores, and their interview scores alone.

ddpas

Does anyone know what the story is if you are offered an AO position while living in a country other than Ireland? Would they allow time to make it back to Ireland etc especially with restrictions at the moment

John Hutton

ddpas wrote: »

Does anyone know what the story is if you are on AO panel and living in a country other than Ireland? Do you need to be based in Ireland to work as an AO?

Yes.

Ravelleman

ddpas wrote: »

Does anyone know what the story is if you are offered an AO position while living in a country other than Ireland? Would they allow time to make it back to Ireland etc especially with restrictions at the moment

You will have to agree a start date with whatever department you end up being assigned to. Way back when, I added about five weeks on to the suggested start date for purely personal reasons. In that case, they were very accommodating but it will always depend on the situation.