Waterford GAA Thread - Mod note post #1

blueflame

Once again I am not taking anything away from Limerick - they are the best side in the country by a margin at the moment and fair play to them as a team and county for the way they have turned their fortunes around, they are truly worthy champions. However I have to say that, seldom have i seen so much written with underlying comments about a referee, particularly in a game with an 11 point winning margin.

Brian Gavin who is very slow to pass any comment other than generally glowing reviews about referees, wrote a substantial piece in the Examiner, while Eoin Ryan had two substantial pieces on the RTE website, and while they were more inclined to lay the blame for some of his decisions at the feet of Cork Park, they were somewhat feeble in their attempts to hide what some of the glaring failures in Horgan's performance. Gavin labelled Hannon's tackle on Hutchinson as a "barge in the back" and thus not a bookable offence - it was not a barge in the back he came across Hutchinson with the shoulder and left the leg in also, it was a cynical tackle that deserved a yellow and Horgan's failure to even give a lecture set down a clear marker for what was to come.

Having watched Morrisseys "jab" on Gleeson his hurley actually passed "though" Gleesons groin, I am not saying it was deliberate, because of the speed, but again one has to ask what was Morrissey actually trying to do "jabbing" with the hurley, and what was Horgan looking at! Big question for me is that why did RTE not even look at the incident in their coverage, and comment on it, even if it were only to exonerate Morrissey in their view - Is anybody going to tell me that if the roles were reversed and it was Gleeson doing this on Morrissey, that the incident would not have been reviewed from about 10 different camera angles, everyone would have their say and inquests would still be raging.

Going forward Limerick are a formidable outfit who play to their strengths, they are massively big and well conditioned men who can really hurl, the best likely chance of success against them is to either match their size, intensity and ability throughout the field which is going to be a big ask for any team to achieve over the next three years, or to try and have big defender's to match their physicality up front and use pace to try and open up their defence. Waterford tried this last Sunday and in fact gave Quaid his busiest day for quite some time. Some of our shots were poorly struck or were speculative at best but there was at least four very good goal chances which could have changed the complexion of the game entirely, and there may even have been more but for Limericks "playing on the edge" which again they are entitled to do - it is up to a referee to address this. Don't get me wrong i have seen Waterford players take out opposition to prevent goals and have had no qualms with it, but at the same time have always accepted the consequences attached to these actions.

I have always had an issue with the comment of letting the "game flow", but that is what the advantage rule was introduced for and rightly so, , other than that you are letting frees going unpunished and is for me an excuse for bad refereeing, and poor enforcement of the game, Cody was famous for using this quote to his own ends. Letting the game flow has been a persistent excuse for Horgan's performances.

End of the day, heartiest congratulations to Limerick, deserved champions and delighted for the Limerick people as they have suffered their own share of heartache over the years - thanks to Liam Cahill and his backroom team, and to the full Waterford panel for giving us a great year , drive on for next year.

Final word, according to Brian Gavin he believe that Fergal Horgan may be finished refereeing soon, I for one will not shed any tears when this happens, he has been involved in more controversy with Waterford than is normal - end of rant. .

JD60

blueflame wrote: »

. Once again I am not taking anything away from Limerick - they are the best side in the country by a margin at the moment and fair play to them as a team and county for the way they have turned their fortunes around, they are truly worthy champions. However I have to say that, seldom have i seen so much written with underlying comments about a referee, particularly in a game with an 11 point winning margin.


Well said.

For all their dominance, Limerick were very flattered by the winning margin. While they are a powerful team with a good age profile, they are not going to rule the land like the Dublin footballers do ; for one thing, they won't be strolling through Munster the way the Dubs do in Leinster.

Roll on 2021 ; the league starts in about 2 months.

Tonights U20 game might throw up some future prospects ; apart from the well known names, I hear goods things about Furlong from Roanmore.

greenspurs

blueflame wrote: »

Once again I am not taking anything away from Limerick - they are the best side in the country by a margin at the moment and fair play to them as a team and county for the way they have turned their fortunes around, they are truly worthy champions. However I have to say that, seldom have i seen so much written with underlying comments about a referee, particularly in a game with an 11 point winning margin.

Brian Gavin who is very slow to pass any comment other than generally glowing reviews about referees, wrote a substantial piece in the Examiner, while Eoin Ryan had two substantial pieces on the RTE website, and while they were more inclined to lay the blame for some of his decisions at the feet of Cork Park, they were somewhat feeble in their attempts to hide what some of the glaring failures in Horgan's performance. Gavin labelled Hannon's tackle on Hutchinson as a "barge in the back" and thus not a bookable offence - it was not a barge in the back he came across Hutchinson with the shoulder and left the leg in also, it was a cynical tackle that deserved a yellow and Horgan's failure to even give a lecture set down a clear marker for what was to come.

Having watched Morrisseys "jab" on Gleeson his hurley actually passed "though" Gleesons groin, I am not saying it was deliberate, because of the speed, but again one has to ask what was Morrissey actually trying to do "jabbing" with the hurley, and what was Horgan looking at! Big question for me is that why did RTE not even look at the incident in their coverage, and comment on it, even if it were only to exonerate Morrissey in their view - Is anybody going to tell me that if the roles were reversed and it was Gleeson doing this on Morrissey, that the incident would not have been reviewed from about 10 different camera angles, everyone would have their say and inquests would still be raging.

Going forward Limerick are a formidable outfit who play to their strengths, they are massively big and well conditioned men who can really hurl, the best likely chance of success against them is to either match their size, intensity and ability throughout the field which is going to be a big ask for any team to achieve over the next three years, or to try and have big defender's to match their physicality up front and use pace to try and open up their defence. Waterford tried this last Sunday and in fact gave Quaid his busiest day for quite some time. Some of our shots were poorly struck or were speculative at best but there was at least four very good goal chances which could have changed the complexion of the game entirely, and there may even have been more but for Limericks "playing on the edge" which again they are entitled to do - it is up to a referee to address this. Don't get me wrong i have seen Waterford players take out opposition to prevent goals and have had no qualms with it, but at the same time have always accepted the consequences attached to these actions.

I have always had an issue with the comment of letting the "game flow", but that is what the advantage rule was introduced for and rightly so, , other than that you are letting frees going unpunished and is for me an excuse for bad refereeing, and poor enforcement of the game, Cody was famous for using this quote to his own ends. Letting the game flow has been a persistent excuse for Horgan's performances.

End of the day, heartiest congratulations to Limerick, deserved champions and delighted for the Limerick people as they have suffered their own share of heartache over the years - thanks to Liam Cahill and his backroom team, and to the full Waterford panel for giving us a great year , drive on for next year.

Final word, according to Brian Gavin he believe that Fergal Horgan may be finished refereeing soon, I for one will not shed any tears when this happens, he has been involved in more controversy with Waterford than is normal - end of rant. .

Cos Waterford would never try to soften up opponents in Croke Park in an All Ireland final?

Only for all the fouls that Limerick conceded , they would have been out of sight by half time.
Gleeson got away with a frontal charge.
Leave the game flow, thats what most people want. The referee didnt influence the outcome at all.

greenspurs

JD60 wrote: »

blueflame wrote: »

. Once again I am not taking anything away from Limerick - they are the best side in the country by a margin at the moment and fair play to them as a team and county for the way they have turned their fortunes around, they are truly worthy champions. However I have to say that, seldom have i seen so much written with underlying comments about a referee, particularly in a game with an 11 point winning margin.


Well said.

For all their dominance, Limerick were very flattered by the winning margin. While they are a powerful team with a good age profile, they are not going to rule the land like the Dublin footballers do ; for one thing, they won't be strolling through Munster the way the Dubs do in Leinster.

.

Come on now, 'flattered' ?!? :eek:

They just went through the League, Munster and the Championship unbeaten!!
10 games, with an average winning margin of 6 points!
They average 28 points in a game , average age in the squad is 25.
They are the team to beat for the next 3-4 years.
They have a steady stream coming through also from their academy.

They are set up to rule the roost for a while.

blueflame

greenspurs wrote: »

Cos Waterford would never try to soften up opponents in Croke Park in an All Ireland final?

Only for all the fouls that Limerick conceded , they would have been out of sight by half time.
Gleeson got away with a frontal charge.
Leave the game flow, thats what most people want. The referee didnt influence the outcome at all.

What Waterford tried against KK in 2008, wasn't trying to soften a team up it was a ridiculous attempt to intimated a seriously experienced and conditions side and it totally back fired on them no excuses from Waterford on that score.

Of course people want to let the game flow, but that does not mean letting repeated fouls going unpunished, unless of course you are the one benefiting from it -

Waternut

greenspurs wrote: »

Cos Waterford would never try to soften up opponents in Croke Park in an All Ireland final?

Only for all the fouls that Limerick conceded , they would have been out of sight by half time.
Gleeson got away with a frontal charge.
Leave the game flow, thats what most people want. The referee didnt influence the outcome at all.

Waterford do need to up their aggression and tackling. There were instances where Limerick players were popping over points and there wasn’t enough pressure being applied. All great teams get in your face and make you work for your scores. Cody and that great Kilkenny team 10 years ago were masters of it.

Asdfgh2020

I thinks it’s the inconsistency/ unpredictability of Fergal Horgan that frustrates people to say he is biased towards or against a particular county is not valid....if Galway were playing on Sunday against Limerick and were beaten by a similar margin would there be similar complaints from Galway fans Re Fergal Horgan..?

greenspurs

blueflame wrote: »

What Waterford tried against KK in 2008, wasn't trying to soften a team up it was a ridiculous attempt to intimated a seriously experienced and conditions side and it totally back fired on them no excuses from Waterford on that score.

Of course people want to let the game flow, but that does not mean letting repeated fouls going unpunished, unless of course you are the one benefiting from it -

Yes, but some people are trying to make out Limerick are a dirty cynical team, on the day!
My point is , its a bit rich (silly even) to come out a try blame the ref when you get bullied by the best team in the country. The couple of incidents that are being mentioned would have had no bearing whatsoever on the final result.
Yee came up against a team that no county could deal with on the day.

mountgomery burns

greenspurs wrote: »

Only for all the fouls that Limerick conceded , they would have been out of sight by half time.
l.

Only for all the points Limerick scored Waterford would have won

Gavlor

I haven’t seen anybody blame the ref for waterfords defeat. The vast majority are simply highlighting how his failure to stamp any authority on the game allowed limerick to really push the boat out in terms of physicality and cynical fouling.

They were by far the better team on the day but choking the life out of waterfords running game certainly influenced the pattern of the match.

A better display by the ref would have led to a better game in my opinion. However, the outcome would more than likely have been the same.

greenspurs

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Only for all the points Limerick scored Waterford would have won

:rolleyes:

Sarcastic, but not clever. :rolleyes:
If you cant understand the point, shouldnt really comment.

Ropaire

I'd have done everything the Limerick players did and more if the ref was leaving me off with it to be honest. Why wouldn't you?

formerlyET

Listen, you can't solely focus on what Limerick did and what the ref didn't do.

If Waterford bury the two really good goal chances they got in the first half and De Burca doesn't get injured - game on. I really liked the look of the replacement (I'd be asking why he wasn't up front and playing as a roving forward to be honest if he can win and spread ball like that). He certainly looked like he was able for the physicality and the demands of that game.

Waterford didn't take the chances they got. Fact.

Yes, there is a problem with cynicism at the moment. A major problem. When another team can stop a teams game plan for goals and not get punished when dragging down a player then the game is in trouble.

But, be honest, did Waterford have the same fight in them as Limerick on the day? No.

Ropaire

formerlyET wrote: »

Listen, you can't solely focus on what Limerick did and what the ref didn't do.

If Waterford bury the two really good goal chances they got in the first half and De Burca doesn't get injured - game on. I really liked the look of the replacement (I'd be asking why he wasn't up front and playing as a roving forward to be honest if he can win and spread ball like that). He certainly looked like he was able for the physicality and the demands of that game.

Waterford didn't take the chances they got. Fact.

Yes, there is a problem with cynicism at the moment. A major problem. When another team can stop a teams game plan for goals and not get punished when dragging down a player then the game is in trouble.

But, be honest, did Waterford have the same fight in them as Limerick on the day? No.

Daly came on, he's 19 or 20 and starting for u20s later names at center forward. He was knocking on the door during the league for a starting place too.

I'd agree with this too, yeah the ref didn't help but he wasn't the deciding factor. We overran the ball at times and were not able to get passes away under pressure. Loads of our lads either underperformed or couldn't get into the game. It was like watching a comfortable enough with for a big boxer sitting in behind the jab vs a smaller lad who couldn't get inside the guard or the clinch for love nor money. The ref didn't dock a point for a slap in the thaws of the smaller lad to add insult to injury but it wouldn't have changed the result.

Deskjockey

Any news yet on Tadhg De Burca?

formerlyET

Ropaire wrote: »

Daly came on, he's 19 or 20 and starting for u20s later names at center forward. He was knocking on the door during the league for a starting place too.

Oh, that's cool. I'd like to see what he can do up front.

TheScoringGoal

Deskjockey wrote: »

Any news yet on Tadhg De Burca?

Cruciate gone according to the independent

greenspurs

TheScoringGoal wrote: »

Cruciate gone according to the independent

Ouch ! :rolleyes:
Thats a shame... A terrible end to a great season for him!

blueflame

Sorry to hear that about Tadhg if true - I have to say that I had feared as much by his reaction and the look on his face at the time, it was the look of a lad who had only recently been through it all before and knew exactly what had happened.

Such a great player and a true warrior - Best wishes and a speedy recovery

mountgomery burns

greenspurs wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Sarcastic, but not clever. :rolleyes:
If you cant understand the point, shouldnt really comment.

It was a stupid point. Worse even than the common point "but what did they score from play" argument.

Limerick have conceded more from frees than every team they've played this year in championship aside from Clare which was 9 a piece. That's not because refs don't like Limerick, it's because they foul more.

You could just as well have said "if Limerick had scored a few goals they'd have won by more". But they didn't, and they generally don't. And the same way with higher concession of scores from frees, it generally comes down to how their style of play.

benji79

It doesn’t matter either way but I presume it’s same knee?

Terrible news. What a year he had otherwise

Asdfgh2020

benji79 wrote: »

It doesn’t matter either way but I presume it’s same knee?

Terrible news. What a year he had otherwise

And Marty during the commentary reckoned he'd be back on later in the game based on what he lip read obviously.............:) Bad news to get cruciate ligament take for a long time to heal............its quite possible Pauric Mahoney could be out also until next june/july.......?

PTH2009

https://munster.gaa.ie/event/2020-bord-gais-energy-munster-under-20-hurling-championship-semi-final-waterford-v-tipperary/

Motivator

Asdfgh2020 wrote: »

And Marty during the commentary reckoned he'd be back on later in the game based on what he lip read obviously.............:) Bad news to get cruciate ligament take for a long time to heal............its quite possible Pauric Mahoney could be out also until next june/july.......?

If both of them make it back for next year it’s some achievement. Paudi already had the leg break, Tadgh only back from a cruciate as well. What they’ve got to do to get back to the level they’re at is crazy. I know David Meyler had two cruciate injuries as did Henry Shefflin, both came back but I know both spoke about the toll it took on them. De Burca is still young but Jesus you’d feel for him having to go through all of that again.

Jjjjjjjjbarry

That's cruel news on Tadhg. Any notice if it was the same knee again? Hopefully he can make another full recovery and not struggle ongoing with injuries as some players in various sports tend to when this sort of thing happens more than once. Henry was probably a bit later in his career when it happened to him but modern technology has probably improved year to year so let's stay positive!

BloodyBill

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

When Jamie Barron burst out of the first ruck only to be flattened on his back by the Limerick man and no whistle I knew we were in trouble, MMA is a mans game

I ll have to pull you up on that one. I watched it back twice. No free was due to Barron. He ran straight into a brick wall ,head first into Flanagan who didn't move into his path in any way. Normally refs incorrectly give frees for players running jnto other players. Horgan got that one right.
You might be right about other ones and the hurley into Austins Gonads should have been a yellow because it was careless . Overall Waterford aren't at the same level as Limerick and thats ok but dont be saying you guys should have had way more frees. You got plenty of them and ye need to get stronger and harder. In the second half a few of your guys went missing..thats a fact. Where was Lyons wing back when the going was heavy...same as Fagan.

greenspurs

mountgomery burns wrote: »

It was a stupid point. Worse even than the common point "but what did they score from play" argument.

Limerick have conceded more from frees than every team they've played this year in championship aside from Clare which was 9 a piece. That's not because refs don't like Limerick, it's because they foul more.

You could just as well have said "if Limerick had scored a few goals they'd have won by more". But they didn't, and they generally don't. And the same way with higher concession of scores from frees, it generally comes down to how their style of play.

People were giving out about Limerick fouling.
I said without those frees they would have been out of sight....

Whats your problem ? :rolleyes:

carq

greenspurs wrote: »

People were giving out about Limerick fouling.
I said without those frees they would have been out of sight....

Whats your problem ? :rolleyes:

What do you think would have happened if limerick didnt foul ?
Waterford would just run over the sideline and hand the ball back to limerick?

mountgomery burns

greenspurs wrote: »

People were giving out about Limerick fouling.
I said without those frees they would have been out of sight....

Whats your problem ? :rolleyes:

greenspurs wrote: »

People were giving out about Limerick fouling.
I said without those frees they would have been out of sight....

Whats your problem ? :rolleyes:

They were giving out about the ref not stamping out cynical play, not something I agree with either.

You know well that players foul normally because their man has them bet, don't try and pretend otherwise as if Limerick handed Waterford a lifeline.

Deisegodeo

greenspurs wrote: »

People were giving out about Limerick fouling.
I said without those frees they would have been out of sight....

Whats your problem ? :rolleyes:

do you not realise how stupid your statement is? without the scores Waterford got limerick would have been further ahead is what you're saying. have a little think about that for a minute.