All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

robinph

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fair point, but because Ireland and the UK are neighbours I tend to put them together. But I do think there's more of a chance that those measures will be scrapped in the UK than in the Ireland. At least there's opposition in the UK. But if they're not scrapped next month then I don't see how they'd ever be scrapped.

I was in Scotland recently and saw a sign in the toilet which said 'Here's how we're keeping you safe in the toilet'. I've seen plenty of signs saying 'no touching', 'no cash' etc. But if people like living in a society with signs like that then that's okay. The majority rules.

Why would Ireland keep restrictions at the point at which the rest of the world has dropped them in your scenario? What would the benefit be for anyone? Why would the population go along with it?

robinph

robinph wrote: »

Why would Ireland keep restrictions at the point at which the rest of the world has dropped them in your scenario? What would the benefit be for anyone? Why would the population go along with it?

According to that Irish Times poll, the majority wants mandatory mask wearing to continue post-vaccination and after herd immunity has been achieved.

Why would the Government go against what the majority wants?

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I've lived in a society that has do not walk on the grass, please queue here, keep left etc on signs all my life, they really haven't affected me.in the slightest. How have these signs affected you?

They're fairly harmless signs and aren't everywhere. In a 'safety at all costs' society signs would be ubiquitous. And they are in the new normal world we're living in. 'No mask no entry', 'Stay safe by keeping your distance', 'Walk this way', 'The mask protects you and others'.

And brianhere wrote in the original post that temporary laws have a habit of becoming permanent. That's set to happen in Melbourne: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9681179/Covid-19-Victoria-Dan-Andrews-secret-plan-make-far-reaching-pandemic-laws-permanent.html

Once governments have power they don't relinquish it easily.

robinph

[Deleted User] wrote: »

According to that Irish Times poll, the majority wants mandatory mask wearing to continue post-vaccination and after herd immunity has been achieved.

Why would the Government go against what the majority wants?

What was the actual question which was asked for that poll?

I suspect that it wasn't asking about people wanting permanent mask requirements.

robinph

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And brianhere wrote in the original post that temporary laws have a habit of becoming permanent. That's set to happen in Melbourne: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9681179/Covid-19-Victoria-Dan-Andrews-secret-plan-make-far-reaching-pandemic-laws-permanent.html

Once governments have power they don't relinquish it easily.

Did you actually read that article?

It's not about permanent restrictions, it's about being able to implement lockdowns again in the future if other pandemics happen.

robinph

robinph wrote: »

What was the actual question which was asked for that poll?

I suspect that it wasn't asking about people wanting permanent mask requirements.

'Once most people are vaccinated, life should return to the way it was before COVID'

32% said it should.

'Even when most people are vaccinated some precautions should remain in place such as wearing masks in shops'

65% agreed they should.

Are you surprised that 65% want restrictions to continue forever? Because if they're not dropped even after herd immunity has been achieved and the majority of the population vaccinated then how would they ever go?

robinph

robinph wrote: »

Did you actually read that article?

It's not about permanent restrictions, it's about being able to implement lockdowns again in the future if other pandemics happen.

So that measure will be a permanent one. Permanent in that it will forever be a measure that can be used.

King Mob

Gortanna wrote: »

So that measure will be a permanent one. Permanent in that it will forever be a measure that can be used.

Ok. So now the claim is that the government will be randomly using lockdowns on and off forever.

Why would this benefit them?

Dohnjoe

Gortanna wrote: »

To create a 'safety at all costs and above all else' society.

No idea what that is, and I suspect you've just made it up

Hence talk of permanent mask wearing in the UK (Professor Susan Michie, Professor John Edmunds)

Susan Michie said we could use masks seasonally to protect against other infectious diseases, e.g. flu. It's an idea, by an individual, with reasoning behind, that's all.

and signs in supermarkets and shops saying 'please touch only that which you intend to buy' and 'please leave cash on counter, no touching' (or something like that). They're not going to go away.

I don't see those signs in any supermarket I've visited. If they are there, it's because there is a pandemic.

Here are the consequences of over a year of 'stay safe' messaging:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-times-poll-public-split-on-pace-of-lifting-covid-19-restrictions-1.4596630

"A large majority also want some precautions – such as the wearing of masks in shops – to remain even after most people are vaccinated against Covid-19."

No. The bolded bit is something you made up and tacked on. People have these views because there's just been a pandemic.

It's not governments all over the world. This thread is specifically about measures in Ireland. I don't know why posters refer to other countries. It's unrealistic to believe that masks will no longer be mandatory in Ireland. They are popular. And there's no opposition, so they're be no pressure put on the government to scrap them. The two measures I see being permanent in Ireland are masks and (some form of) social distancing.

Because other countries with lower levels of the virus are removing mask requirements and that contradicts your arguments.

King Mob

King Mob wrote: »

Ok. So now the claim is that the government will be randomly using lockdowns on and off forever.

Why would this benefit them?

Dan Andrews wants to be able to lockdown the state over and over again. It's not a claim, it's happening. Why would lockdowns go away? They're very popular. Poll after poll tells us they are.

Dohnjoe

Gortanna wrote: »

Dan Andrews wants to be able to lockdown the state over and over again. It's not a claim, it's happening. Why would lockdowns go away? They're very popular. Poll after poll tells us they are.

You are systematically misinterpreting things now.

Lockdowns are not "popular".

When faced with the choice of a) keeping everything open and letting the disease run rampant or b) locking down in reduce the spread of the disease but taking an economic hit

People are more in favour of b) for obvious reasons.

It does not mean they "like" lockdowns, it's just that it's better than the alternative.

Dohnjoe

Dohnjoe wrote: »

No idea what that is, and I suspect you've just made it up



Susan Michie said we could use masks seasonally to protect against other infectious diseases, e.g. flu. It's an idea, by an individual, with reasoning behind, that's all.



I don't see those signs in any supermarket I've visited. If they are there, it's because there is a pandemic.



No. The bolded bit is something you made up and tacked on. People have these views because there's just been a pandemic.



Because other countries with lower levels of the virus are removing mask requirements and that contradicts your arguments.

We've been living in a 'safety above all else' society for the past 18 months. Signs everywhere, restrictions on all aspects of life, masks, distancing. 'But it's a pandemic'. Yes, but the majority, according to that Irish Times poll, want restrictions to continue post-pandemic. So that would mean that kind of society would be permanent, even if slightly watered down.

Susan Michie said masks should be worn forever. Nothing about seasonally. All year round. She compared it with wearing a seatbelt.

But in Ireland the majority doesn't want them to lifted. Poll after poll tells us that. Masks are popular in Ireland. And, unlike the US, for example, there's no pressure for restrictions to be lifted. There's no reason to believe that they will be. If the majority wants restrictions to continue then I don't know why the Government would go against what the majority wants.

Dohnjoe

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You are systematically misinterpreting things now.

Lockdowns are not "popular".

When faced with the choice of a) keeping everything open and letting the disease run rampant or b) locking down in reduce the spread of the disease but taking an economic hit

People are more in favour of b) for obvious reasons.

It does not mean they "like" lockdowns, it's just that it's better than the alternative.

Look at all the YouGov polls. Large majorities support lockdowns and have consistently supported them. Same in Ireland.

If something is consistently supported then it's popular.

robinph

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So that measure will be a permanent one. Permanent in that it will forever be a measure that can be used.

But not a conspiracy then, just after a year and a half of some measures being used to try and control a pandemic they think that maybe a more efficient way to handle things swiftly if the same happens again in the future would be useful.

Would be like trying to claim a conspiracy was behind when drinking laws being brought in, or speed limits, or some other random health and safety regulations in the workplace etc.

robinph

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But in Ireland the majority doesn't want them to lifted. Poll after poll tells us that. Masks are popular in Ireland. And, unlike the US, for example, there's no pressure for restrictions to be lifted. There's no reason to believe that they will be. If the majority wants restrictions to continue then I don't know why the Government would go against what the majority wants.

They don't want restrictions forever, just that they understand that the virus is still out there even once things open up again... So it makes sense to do simple things like wearing masks to limit spread where possible as it costs nothing and is really easy for people to do for the benefit of others.

Nobody wants masks to be permanent, they just understand that they may still be part of life for a while longer yet.

robinph

robinph wrote: »

They don't want restrictions forever, just that they understand that the virus is still out there even once things open up again... So it makes sense to do simple things like wearing masks to limit spread where possible as it costs nothing and is really easy for people to do for the benefit of others.

Nobody wants masks to be permanent, they just understand that they may still be part of life for a while longer yet.

How much longer? Covid is endemic. It's not going away. So why wouldn't they be permanent? There will always be a small risk. Why take it?

Fighting Tao

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Look at all the YouGov polls. Large majorities support lockdowns and have consistently supported them. Same in Ireland.

If something is consistently supported then it's popular.

Did you even read what you said about the UK and Ireland earlier? It’s only a few posts back. You can’t even keep a consistent message going.

robinph

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How much longer? Covid is endemic. It's not going away. So why wouldn't they be permanent? There will always be a small risk. Why take it?

Don't know how much longer, but as long as is necessary.

The point of the conspiracy though is that it's not necessary and is all being done for the benefit of some shadowy group of overlords who are trying to trick the rest of the world. If there is a pandemic still ongoing then doesn't it make sense for there to be restrictions of some kind?

That isn't a conspiracy.

robinph

robinph wrote: »

Don't know how much longer, but as long as is necessary.

The point of the conspiracy though is that it's not necessary and is all being done for the benefit of some shadowy group of overlords who are trying to trick the rest of the world. If there is a pandemic still ongoing then doesn't it make sense for there to be restrictions of some kind?

That isn't a conspiracy.

Do you think all restrictions should go once herd immunity has been reached? If not then it's zero covid.

If you read brianhere's original post there's nothing about a shadowy group of overlords. I have zero confidence that masks will one day no longer be required on public transport, in shops, in cinemas etc. The majority want restrictions to continue. If herd immunity isn't enough for them to be scrapped then why would ever be scrapped?

eddie73

Gortanna wrote: »

Do you think all restrictions should go once herd immunity has been reached? If not then it's zero covid.

If you read brianhere's original post there's nothing about a shadowy group of overlords. I have zero confidence that masks will one day no longer be required on public transport, in shops, in cinemas etc. The majority want restrictions to continue. If herd immunity isn't enough for them to be scrapped then why would ever be scrapped?

It wouldn't be the end of the world to have to wear a mask in a shop indefinitely. It would suck for a worker though.
Public transport would take some getting used to, but you could put up with it.
Places of work, this starts to become problematic.
Restaurants and bars or hotels, it wouldn't be nice at all.
Outdoor events or outdoors in general, it wouldn't be nice either.

I dont think these measures are going to be permanent, if the experience of Israel is anything to go by.
https://www.israel21c.org/israel-says-goodbye-and-good-riddance-to-covid-masks/

eddie73

eddie73 wrote: »

It wouldn't be the end of the world to have to wear a mask in a shop indefinitely. It would suck for a worker though.
Public transport would take some getting used to, but you could put up with it.
Places of work, this starts to become problematic.
Restaurants and bars or hotels, it wouldn't be nice at all.
Outdoor events or outdoors in general, it wouldn't be nice either.

I dont think these measures are going to be permanent, if the experience of Israel is anything to go by.
https://www.israel21c.org/israel-says-goodbye-and-good-riddance-to-covid-masks/

I think that's what will happen. Permanent in shops, post offices, banks etc. And on public transport. And that would be popular based on polls.

The question of course would be: why would any restrictions be necessary once herd immunity had been achieved?

But the majority wants them to be permanent.

astrofool

Gortanna wrote: »

Do you think all restrictions should go once herd immunity has been reached? If not then it's zero covid.

If you read brianhere's original post there's nothing about a shadowy group of overlords. I have zero confidence that masks will one day no longer be required on public transport, in shops, in cinemas etc. The majority want restrictions to continue. If herd immunity isn't enough for them to be scrapped then why would ever be scrapped?

So, is this permanence only for Ireland? Are you ignoring the countries that have already scrapped mask wearing, or about to scrap it? A lot of US states have scrapped it already, are they just not in on it? Do you think people in Ireland will be forced to wear masks post pandemic when herd immunity is achieved? I'm sure some people will choose to wear masks (they were already popular in asian countries pre-pandemic due to pollution) but will likely be the exception.

Do you think nightclubs in Ireland will enforce, will nightclub goers choose to wear masks?

eddie73

Gortanna wrote: »

I think that's what will happen. Permanent in shops, post offices, banks etc. And on public transport. And that would be popular based on polls.

The question of course would be: why would any restrictions be necessary once herd immunity had been achieved?

But the majority wants them to be permanent.

I don't think there is a consensus out there that wants the mask wearing to continue regardless of herd immunity.

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

So, is this permanence only for Ireland? Are you ignoring the countries that have already scrapped mask wearing, or about to scrap it? A lot of US states have scrapped it already, are they just not in on it? Do you think people in Ireland will be forced to wear masks post pandemic when herd immunity is achieved? I'm sure some people will choose to wear masks (they were already popular in asian countries pre-pandemic due to pollution) but will likely be the exception.

Do you think nightclubs in Ireland will enforce, will nightclub goers choose to wear masks?

Ireland, and possibly the UK. We'll known on the 19th of July. If restrictions aren't aren't scrapped in the UK, or maybe it'd be more accurate to say England, on the 19th then I don't see how they could ever be scrapped. Because covid isn't going away.

The US is different. There's huge opposition there. Half the country is represented by one party, the other half by another party. There's huge pressure from various media outlets there. The CDC was put under massive pressure to scrap masks, and are now being put under pressure to scrap them on planes and on public transport: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9701363/Senators-sides-aisle-ready-DITCH-MASKS-amid-push-end-mandate-public-transport.html

I expect that pressure to intensify in the coming weeks.

I do think mask wearing will be mandatory because it's what the majority wants. 65% according to the latest Irish Times poll.

I don't know whether nightclubs will ever reopen in Ireland. And if they do there will be very few left standing. They'll have been closed for almost two years.

Do you think mask wearing will be scrapped in shops, post offices, restaurants, pubs, cinemas, banks, and on public transport in Ireland?

eddie73

eddie73 wrote: »

I don't think there is a consensus out there that wants the mask wearing to continue regardless of herd immunity.

65% want it to continue even after most people have been vaccinated and herd immunity has therefore been achieved: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-times-poll-public-split-on-pace-of-lifting-covid-19-restrictions-1.4596630

robinph

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you read brianhere's original post there's nothing about a shadowy group of overlords.

So what on earth is this thread existing for then if none of the conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy?

robinph

robinph wrote: »

So what on earth is this thread existing for then if none of the conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy?

brianhere's hypothesis is that the government will make the restrictions permanent. It has been speculated by others that they are following orders, but the original post specifically said the government would keep the restrictions in place. After 18 months of restrictions people are still absolutely confident that they will be lifted. I'm not, unfortunately, but I will be pleasantly surprised if they are.

Are you absolutely confident they will be lifted?

robinph

[Deleted User] wrote: »

brianhere's hypothesis is that the government will make the restrictions permanent.

... And is the claim that any continuing restrictions are due to an ongoing issue with a pandemic, or is the claim that any restrictions would be unnecessary?

robinph

robinph wrote: »

... And is the claim that any continuing restrictions are due to an ongoing issue with a pandemic, or is the claim that any restrictions would be unnecessary?

For 65% of the public no or almost no threat (because herd immunity would mean little or no threat) wouldn't be enough to get rid of restrictions.

Do you think there should be any restrictions, or any justification for them, at the moment in Ireland based on the present data? Not about potential variants. Just purely based on the number of hospitalisations in a population of 4 and a half million.