To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

rob316

First time I actually encountered people refusing to wear masks was a traveler family in Aldi the other day. One rule for us another for them. They were still served, there children followed around the store so they wouldn't steal, abused staff and other customers at the checkouts. Sickening

odyssey06

Lex Luthor wrote: »

you just answered your own question by quoting Quora and what I said earlier on about refresh rates in operating theatres

the more air changes per hour the better chance of keeping the oxygen concentration higher, especially with the pressurized environment with a laminar air flow that keeps the air nice and fresh constantly around the people rather than stale air

Nope, you haven't answered any of the questions that were put to you.
You keep dodging the questions in such an obvious and transparent manner it is laughable... show us your stats for the significant levels of difference of carbon dioxide in a non refreshed room and how that could possibly make a difference to masks.

Answer the question that keeps getting put to you about dentists and all the operations, procedures and diagnoses conducted past and present in non pressured rooms.

Come back to us when you have a real answer and stop spoofing.

Necro

Mod:

Threads merged

Lex Luthor

robinph wrote: »

So where are the historical articles that show the reason for these air systems were installed was because surgeons were being affected by CO2 poisoning?
Where are the articles about all the surgeons dying before the system was invented?

If that is these reason these systems exist then you must have something to back that up. Why do dentists not have the same systems installed and how do they survive?

I never mentioned poisoning, that was you and never mentioned surgeons dying

robinph

Lex Luthor wrote: »

I never mentioned poisoning, that was you and never mentioned surgeons dying

So why do they have those systems installed in operating theatres again? I thought it was because surgeons would breathe in too much CO2 otherwise... Or did you make that up?

Lex Luthor

odyssey06 wrote: »

Nope, you haven't answered any of the questions that were put to you.
You keep dodging the questions in such an obvious and transparent manner it is laughable... show us your stats for the significant levels of difference of carbon dioxide in a non refreshed room and how that could possibly make a difference to masks.

Answer the question that keeps getting put to you about dentists and all the operations, procedures and diagnoses conducted past and present in non pressured rooms.

Come back to us when you have a real answer and stop spoofing.

bit of a pattern here, answer the question, wear the mask..!!!

all you had to do was google it....jeez

https://www.zehnderamerica.com/how-bedroom-co2-levels-impact-restful-sleep/#:~:text=Elevated%20carbon%20dioxide%20concentrations%20are,can%20help%20dilute%20indoor%20pollutants.

if you dont think its an issue to wear one for 8 hrs, put one on going to sleep tonight, make sure it doesnt fall off, and lets see how you are when you wake up tomorrow morning

Seanergy

Lex Luthor wrote: »

They have done this.....

I'm glad you mentioned that the level of......

No, they have not done this. Read what I said again and reply to it.

Maybe if we had pop up mask education guidance in car parks outside supermarkets or something similar handling improvemnets could be advanced.

BTW never mentioned any level of.....where did I say that?

Lex Luthor

Seanergy wrote: »

No, they have not done this. Read what I said again and reply to it.

Maybe if we had pop up mask education guidance in car parks outside supermarkets or something similar handling improvemnets could be advanced.

BTW never mentioned any level of.....where did I say that?

In terms of your suggestion, it would be a waste of time & resources
They have already tried to educate us early on, on the etiquette of mask wearing and what to do with them when not being used, etc

I dont see an awful lot of what was communicated being done

Would a refresher course improve things? I highly doubt it

Seanergy

Thank you for reading the question instead of answering with yor lies.

Your moaning it ain't being done right and now your moaning it would waste time and resources, how?

HCW's get hands on training, they have buddy systems in place, the irish public were told to go home and make a mask out of a sock by the Minister for Health in the early days.

LOL refresher course, the early mask education was pure limp.

Still waiting for a response to BTW never mentioned any level of.....where did I say that?

odyssey06

Lex Luthor wrote: »

bit of a pattern here, answer the question, wear the mask..!!!
all you had to do was google it....jeez
https://www.zehnderamerica.com/how-bedroom-co2-levels-impact-restful-sleep/#:~:text=Elevated%20carbon%20dioxide%20concentrations%20are,can%20help%20dilute%20indoor%20pollutants.

The pattern is you being unable to answer basic questions which hole your fantastical claims below the waterline.
For the 7th time of asking:
Answer the question that keeps getting put to you about dentists and all the operations, procedures and diagnoses conducted past and present in non pressured rooms.

You link to a ventilation company flogging units who claim classrooms and bedrooms already have dangerous levels of carbon dioxide???

Meanwhile, this was a real study done by medical professionals on the safety of masks.

Face masks do not increase CO2 levels, even in people with severe lung impairment: study
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/beta.ctv...1_5130892.html

pjohnson

Are some perhaps using a plastic bag over their head instead of a mask?

If you pop a plastic bag over your head I could see Lex's points becoming relevant.

Lex Luthor

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Touching things isn't how covid spread, so not sure why you're upset at people touching things.

ahh ok, better inform Bill & his chronies at the WHO then

The virus can also spread after infected people sneeze, cough on, or touch surfaces, or objects, such as tables, doorknobs and handrails. Other people may become infected by touching these contaminated surfaces, then touching their eyes, noses or mouths without having cleaned their hands first.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-how-is-it-transmitted

Graham

Lex Luthor wrote: »

The virus can also spread after infected people sneeze, cough on, or touch surfaces

So wash your hands, wear your mask.

odyssey06

Lex Luthor wrote: »

ahh ok, better inform Bill & his chronies at the WHO then
The virus can also spread after infected people sneeze, cough on, or touch surfaces, or objects, such as tables, doorknobs and handrails. Other people may become infected by touching these contaminated surfaces, then touching their eyes, noses or mouths without having cleaned their hands first.
https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-how-is-it-transmitted

Current evidence suggests that the main way the virus spreads is by respiratory droplets among people who are in close contact with each other...
The virus can also spread after infected people sneeze, cough on, or touch surfaces, or objects, such as tables, doorknobs and handrails. Other people may become infected by touching these contaminated surfaces, then touching their eyes, noses or mouths without having cleaned their hands first.
https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-how-is-it-transmitted

The primary threat is from respiratory droplets.
You can sanitise your hands after you have touched a possibly contaminated surface.
You can't sanitise your lungs after you have inhaled possibly contaminated droplets.
Wear a mask. Contain your droplets.

CIARAN_BOYLE

I wear a mask. I support wearing masks.

I have to wonder though is it doing most people any good?

Let's forget the people who wear it as chin guards or expose the nose. Ordinary people who seem to be trying to wear a mask.

Put it on. Scratch their face. Pull it down have a drink. Adjust mask.

This is what we were told not to do at the start of the pandemic and why Nphet argued against masks at the beginning.

Now if someone constantly touches their face they probably aren't doing themself any benefit by wearing a mask. But they are doing other people benefit.

I am more likely not to get infected because they wear a mask. For many people that is the main community benefit from masks. Why cant people just wear masks properly?

Lex Luthor

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I wear a mask. I support wearing masks.

I have to wonder though is it doing most people any good?

Let's forget the people who wear it as chin guards or expose the nose. Ordinary people who seem to be trying to wear a mask.

Put it on. Scratch their face. Pull it down have a drink. Adjust mask.

This is what we were told not to do at the start of the pandemic and why Nphet argued against masks at the beginning.

Now if someone constantly touches their face they probably aren't doing themself any benefit by wearing a mask. But they are doing other people benefit.

I am more likely not to get infected because they wear a mask. For many people that is the main community benefit from masks. Why cant people just wear masks properly?

in my opinion the majority of people are only wearing them because they are being told they have to wear them

if they turned around tomorrow and said, no more masks, I think I'd be safe to say the vast majority would be glad to see the back of them

As you say initially they didnt want to go down the road of masks, but that was mainly due to supply and they wanted to keep the stock for frontline staff

Same with goggles, you couldnt get them anywhere.

I dont get though how people feel a shield is any better than wearing nothing.
Majority of staff in supermarkets stacking shelves wear shileds, yet people are quite happy to accept them wearing it over a mask. Its just optics to make it look like they are putting protection on

Take aside my feelings on them for the whole CO2 debate, the other major issue I have with them is that people dont use them as they were asked to do

Most people dont handle them by the ear loops
most people re-use disposable masks and rarely wash their re-usable masks
most people adjust it and dont leave it alone
they dont treat it like its contaminated, instead think its a magic cape that will protect them, if used it should be dumped if a disposable one, washed if its a reusable one
most people after touching it, generally dont wash their hands

you could liken it to the rubber gloves everyone was wearing back in early April/May. Wear the gloves, no need to sanitize and touch everything you want as long as your hands underneath stay clean, then discard the gloves when you get back in the car

robinph

Lex Luthor wrote: »

Take aside my feelings on them for the whole CO2 debate,

We can wait ...

Lex Luthor wrote: »

the other major issue I have with them is that people dont use them as they were asked to do

Most people dont handle them by the ear loops
most people re-use disposable masks and rarely wash their re-usable masks
most people adjust it and dont leave it alone
they dont treat it like its contaminated, instead think its a magic cape that will protect them, if used it should be dumped if a disposable one, washed if its a reusable one
most people after touching it, generally dont wash their hands

you could liken it to the rubber gloves everyone was wearing back in early April/May. Wear the gloves, no need to sanitize and touch everything you want as long as your hands underneath stay clean, then discard the gloves when you get back in the car

So how is someone not touching their mask correctly going to change it's usefulness in stopping them breathing over you (assuming they have it on correctly at the time). Do masks cease to work if I took it off to scratch my nose 5 minutes before meeting you? If I have Covid does it really matter if I touch my mask incorrectly? As long as you are not touching my mask and are keeping your distance where is the problem?

The only problem with people touching their own mask is if you have covid and have been speaking to them right up in their face without a mask on and contaminating it for them. If you put a mask on then the chances of that happening are significantly reduced though.

It's a bit icky to be using a mishandled mask, but if it's only your own ickiness then there really isn't that much of a problem.

Graham

Lex Luthor wrote: »

Take aside my feelings on them for the whole CO2 debate

There is no CO2 debate

It's a scare story that's been thoroughly and utterly debunked.

Lex Luthor

robinph wrote: »

We can wait ...



So how is someone not touching their mask correctly going to change it's usefulness in stopping them breathing over you (assuming they have it on correctly at the time). Do masks cease to work if I took it off to scratch my nose 5 minutes before meeting you? If I have Covid does it really matter if I touch my mask incorrectly? As long as you are not touching my mask and are keeping your distance where is the problem?

The only problem with people touching their own mask is if you have covid and have been speaking to them right up in their face without a mask on and contaminating it for them. If you put a mask on then the chances of that happening are significantly reduced though.

It's a bit icky to be using a mishandled mask, but if it's only your own ickiness then there really isn't that much of a problem.

if only everybody had your diligence then we would have a world free of COVID

Lex Luthor

Graham wrote: »

There is no CO2 debate

It's a scare story that's been thoroughly and utterly debunked.

add it to all the other scare stories then..........

robinph

Lex Luthor wrote: »

if only everybody had your diligence then we would have a world free of COVID

So do you have anything to show that scratching ones nose under you mask before meeting someone else is going to cause that someone else to catch Covid?

Of how about keeping my mask in my pocket and then popping it on before going into a shop causes the Covid to somehow materialise in the air infront of my mask so that I'm then breathing on your unmasked face in the shop?

We can go back to your claims about CO2 if you'd prefer and have anything to support the reasons that operating theatres have air pressure differential from the outside is because of surgeons feinting due to wearing masks, but somehow that doesn't affect dentists or any surgeons before the '70's (just a wild guess as to when they installed these systems).

Lex Luthor

robinph wrote: »

So do you have anything to show that scratching ones nose under you mask before meeting someone else is going to cause that someone else to catch Covid?

If Daddy Holohan says touching your face and then touching an object after that can spread this COVID, who am I to query that :cool:

robinph wrote: »

We can go back to your claims about CO2 if you'd prefer and have anything to support the reasons that operating theatres have air pressure differential from the outside is because of surgeons feinting due to wearing masks, but somehow that doesn't affect dentists or any surgeons before the '70's (just a wild guess as to when they installed these systems).

ever been in a course or classroom and wonder why after an hour the windows are being opened and people are nodding off and fatigued?

The better the ventilation and fresh air exchange in a room or building, the less concentration of CO2 exists

Graham

Lex Luthor wrote: »

ever been in a course or classroom and wonder why after an hour the windows are being opened and people are nodding off and fatigued?

The better the ventilation and fresh air exchange in a room or building, the less concentration of CO2 exists

How are you fitting 30 other pupils and a teacher into your mask?

robinph

Lex Luthor wrote: »

ever been in a course or classroom and wonder why after an hour the windows are being opened and people are nodding off and fatigued?

The better the ventilation and fresh air exchange in a room or building, the less concentration of CO2 exists

So you are now comparing a mask to a classroom? Do you have any papers showing that kids are falling asleep in class because of CO2 build up, rather than say the lesson is a bit boring or going on too long instead?

If it's such a big problem that they went and installed air circulation systems in operating theatres to prevent surgeons falling asleep, rather than to keep bacteria out, then I'd have expected you to be able to show some details on that by this stage. All any of the rest of us have seen on our version of the internet is things about it being to do with trying to prevent the transfer of bacteria, but please do show your sources that the rest of us cannot find.

And why have they not thought to install these same systems in classrooms yet, and where are the studies on CO2 levels in schools? Why are they keeping this information from us?

odyssey06

Lex Luthor wrote: »

ever been in a course or classroom and wonder why after an hour the windows are being opened and people are nodding off and fatigued?

I heard a school in Leitrim nearly lost 5 kids after they forgot to open a window.
Good job the ambulance got them laid out in the operating theatre on time or who knows what might have happened...

Feeling the need to open a window cos a room is a bit stuffy or stinky or uncomfortable is not the same as doing so cos it poses a health threat.

Lex Luthor

Graham wrote: »

How are you fitting 30 other pupils and a teacher into your mask?

you must have me mistaken with the other Lex Luthor who wears a mask
I carry around my lucky rock so I dont need a mask

robinph wrote: »

Why are they keeping this information from us?

in the same way other information is being suppressed

the info about masks you find on google at the moment is completely contradictory to what was on it 12 months ago but you will be hard fought to find those articles now from 12 months ago

odyssey06

Lex Luthor wrote: »

in the same way other information is being suppressed
the info about masks you find on google at the moment is completely contradictory to what was on it 12 months ago but you will be hard fought to find those articles now from 12 months ago

I don't believe that any completely contradictory information is being suppressed.

The protective effect of surgical masks \ face coverings as PPE by the general public is weak, nothing has changed there in 12 months and that is why in Spring the recommendation was not to wear them.
The evidence didn't change, the focus on their use as barriers did.
What evidence might be discovered in future is whether they have a protective role in reducing the viral load - and may account for some of the asymptomatic infections.

So what information is being suppressed?
The effects of masks on carbon dioxide? No evidence of that.
Large scale trials of masks as barriers? No evidence of that.

I have heard trials where cloth coverings were tested as PPE by hospital cleaners being used as evidence against their rollout as barriers in parliamentary committee members.
It's not that the trials are right or wrong, they are asking a different question and it is simply disingenuous to present them in that light and they are not contradictory.

Seanergy

Why are you lying on this thread Lex?

You have put words in my mouth I did not say.

Lex Luthor wrote: »

I'm glad you mentioned that the level of CO2 in exhaled air is 40,000ppm

Inhaled air is 100 times less at approx 400ppm, but can rise to 1000ppm indoors if the room is not ventilated but still considered safe

SO inside the mask, the levels can reach much higher than inhaled air but lower than exhaled air due to leakage

OSHA levels for CO2 for an 8hr exposure level is 5000ppm. Most gas detectors manufactured come with default alarm levels of 5,000ppm for evacuation

I can tell you now if you were working in a room in any industry with a risk to exposure to CO2, you would be out of that room at 5000ppm and not allowed back in

ok so now I hear the counter argument for this being an 8hr period of exposure

so the 15min NIOSH STEL level for CO2 is 30,000ppm

you have school kids wearing them for periods of 2-3hrs during the day in schools

all I am saying imo is the potential long term effects of wearing a mask due to elevated CO2 levels cannot be good for the body and the harm vs good argument of wearing a mask vs the risk of catching a corona virus dont warrant the wearing of them

Seanergy wrote: »

BTW never mentioned any level of.....where did I say that?

Seanergy wrote: »

Still waiting for a response to BTW never mentioned any level of.....where did I say that?

robinph

Lex Luthor wrote: »

you must have me mistaken with the other Lex Luthor who wears a mask
I carry around my lucky rock so I dont need a mask



in the same way other information is being suppressed

the info about masks you find on google at the moment is completely contradictory to what was on it 12 months ago but you will be hard fought to find those articles now from 12 months ago

Here you go, the Internet Way Back Machine should help you to find these studies for us about why operating theatres have fancy air systems in them as well and about all the school kids falling asleep from CO2 poisoning.

https://archive.org/web/

Lex Luthor

Seanergy wrote: »

Why are you lying on this thread Lex?

You have put words in my mouth I did not say.

go back & check that particular post

I was quoting someone else
Apology accepted