To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

Away With The Fairies

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

[/B]

Infected people shouldn’t be out and about....

They’re supposed to be at home for 14 days to recover from covid most probably didn’t know they had in the first instance.


And if people don’t even know they have it and are out and about feeling fine, well it’s probably not as serious a virus as is been made out every single day for the last 9 months....

People dying but sure you'll make excuses that they're old and only fit for the coffin anyways.

But what about others not fit for the coffin and end up on ventilators bad end up with long covid. To fcuk with them as well? Because you feel a bit put out wearing a mask.

Pitch n Putt

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

People dying but sure you'll make excuses that they're old and only fit for the coffin anyways.

But what about others not fit for the coffin and end up on ventilators bad end up with long covid. To fcuk with them as well? Because you feel a bit put out wearing a mask.[/QUOTE


You do realise when Dr Holohan and Glynn said treat everyone as if they have the virus was only meant as scare tactics.

We have less than 1500 active cases within the population of 4.8 million people and your going on about people spreading viral particles everywhere.

Not everyone has these particles as you put it but this is the situation that’s been created by the hysterical media.

I think you need to step back and reassess things because you’ve gotten wrapped up in this too.

weldoninhio

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

People dying but sure you'll make excuses that they're old and only fit for the coffin anyways.

But what about others not fit for the coffin and end up on ventilators bad end up with long covid. To fcuk with them as well? Because you feel a bit put out wearing a mask.

Long Covid. The newest monster in the closet.

robinph

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

[/B]

Infected people shouldn’t be out and about....

They’re supposed to be at home for 14 days to recover from covid most probably didn’t know they had in the first instance.


And if people don’t even know they have it and are out and about feeling fine, well it’s probably not as serious a virus as is been made out every single day for the last 9 months....

I'm guessing that you missed the thing about people being infectious for a couple of days before they get symptoms being the main thing which is making it so difficult to trace and control the infection amongst the community.

You wear a mask today because you had contact with someone yesterday who won't be showing symptoms until the day after tomorrow, and you'll not be showing symptoms until the day after that. If you're lucky that person who you met yesterday remembers they met you and tells you tomorrow so that you don't then go and hang out with your elderly relatives the day after, but most likely they will forget that they met you and you'll go merrily along infecting others for a few more days.

Sconsey

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

[/B]

Infected people shouldn’t be out and about....

They’re supposed to be at home for 14 days to recover from covid most probably didn’t know they had in the first instance.


And if people don’t even know they have it and are out and about feeling fine, well it’s probably not as serious a virus as is been made out every single day for the last 9 months....

This kind of clueless attatude is really amazing at this stage.

Sconsey

robinph wrote: »

OK, so what are the numbers for the CO2 being inhaled?

I would not give that lad the time of day, he is making it up as he goes. Some of his claims are such a joke he must just be looking for attention.

Lex Luthor

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

But what about others not fit for the coffin and end up on ventilators bad end up with long covid. To fcuk with them as well? Because you feel a bit put out wearing a mask.

Ventilators should be the last resort when there is a safe & effective treatment, but sure they have taken that away aswell (another debate)

I'd like to know what peoples thoughts are on the non requirement of wearing them in post offices, banks & credit unions?

Is the virus not allowed in there? if it was that "deadly" and infectious, surely they should be mandatory everywhere and not just pick & choose

Obviously its impossible to have a drink or something to eat in a food establishment but again a place where masks are not mandatory

Pitch n Putt

robinph wrote: »

I'm guessing that you missed the thing about people being infectious for a couple of days before they get symptoms being the main thing which is making it so difficult to trace and control the infection amongst the community.

You wear a mask today because you had contact with someone yesterday who won't be showing symptoms until the day after tomorrow, and you'll not be showing symptoms until the day after that. If you're lucky that person who you met yesterday remembers they met you and tells you tomorrow so that you don't then go and hang out with your elderly relatives the day after, but most likely they will forget that they met you and you'll go merrily along infecting others for a few more days.

All ifs buts and maybes.

Lex Luthor

Sconsey wrote: »

This kind of clueless attatude is really amazing at this stage.

so what bit of that comment is clueless?

Lex Luthor

Sconsey wrote: »

I would not give that lad the time of day, he is making it up as he goes. Some of his claims are such a joke he must just be looking for attention.

busted...!!!

Pitch n Putt

Lex Luthor wrote: »

Ventilators should be the last resort when there is a safe & effective treatment, but sure they have taken that away aswell (another debate)

I'd like to know what peoples thoughts are on the non requirement of wearing them in post offices, banks & credit unions?

Is the virus not allowed in there? if it was that "deadly" and infectious, surely they should be mandatory everywhere and not just pick & choose

Obviously its impossible to have a drink or something to eat in a food establishment but again a place where masks are not mandatory

It’s a very wise virus. Doesn’t effect the CMO or his officials either. Never seen a mask at any briefings.....

Senior Hse officials seem to be immune to it also...

But ordinary joe can’t tap his bank card in a shop without even opening his mouth and dealing with a cashier behind a screen with a mask on.

€80 fine for that :rolleyes:

robinph

Lex Luthor wrote: »

busted...!!!

So you're back then?

Do you have any of those articles about surgeons getting CO2 poisoning in operating theatres yet?

Or what about the CO2 content of the breath being inhaled by a mask wearer, I assume you've tested this seeing as you have such accurate numbers on how much CO2 is exhaled into a mask? Or what about the volume of air that is held within this mask and how much of that is then re-inhaled?

Lex Luthor

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

It’s a very wise virus. Doesn’t effect the CMO or his officials either. Never seen a mask at any briefings.....

Senior Hse officials seem to be immune to it also...

But ordinary joe can’t tap his bank card in a shop without even opening his mouth and dealing with a cashier behind a screen with a mask on.

€80 fine for that :rolleyes:

dont forget, shop owners dont have to wear them either cos they dont have the virus while they are working in the shop, but when they leave work and go into another shop they have to put it on

Mary served Paddy the other day, Mary doesnt have to wear a mask cos she's behind the screen but Paddy does cos big daddy Holohan says so
But then when Mary finishes work and goes to Paddys shop, she has to put the mask on but Paddy doesnt cos he has no screen but says to himself that he can keep a 2m distance from Mary.

and people still dont grasp the stupidity of all this

Lex Luthor

robinph wrote: »

Or what about the CO2 content of the breath being inhaled by a mask wearer, I assume you've tested this seeing as you have such accurate numbers on how much CO2 is exhaled into a mask?

oh my god, how many times

exhaled air comprises of approx 40,000ppm

inhaled fresh air contains approx 400ppm

in the measurements I took, the CO2 content measured under the mask was approx 12,000ppm which is obviously a combination of inhaled & exhaled
if the content of CO2 under the mask has a reading of 12,000ppm, then you are OBVIOUSLY inhaling a much higher content of CO2 into your body than you would be without a mask

robinph wrote: »

Or what about the volume of air that is held within this mask and how much of that is then re-inhaled?

I cant give a definitive answer on this as the volume can vary depending on many factors which is defined as the space enclosed by a boundary or occupied by an object

Lex Luthor

robinph wrote: »

Do you have any of those articles about surgeons getting CO2 poisoning in operating theatres yet?

they dont cos the air is refreshed at a very high rate

again, mentioned this already :rolleyes:

saneman

Lex Luthor wrote: »

I never said that a face mask is airtight

its not free flowing either hence the elevated levels of CO2 under them between the mask & face

Take a brown paper bag and hold it over your mouth and breathe in & out for 1min and let me know how you feel?

The CO2 levels inside that bag would typically be higher than levels behind a mask but lower than exhaled air of approx 40,000ppm as the bag is not fully sealed

you can choose to ignore, debunk, whatever what I am saying

I've got over 15yrs experience in specific gas detection monitoring in various industries and working with emergency workers, etc so I'm just giving my opinion

Ask a firefighter whats in their cylinder strapped to their back when they go into an emergency situation. Its not a bottle of 12,000ppm CO2

I have measured these levels with various colleagues and they are what they are

I'm trying to give information here that is being suppressed to make people feel that masks should be worn to protect us from a virus

Do what you like with it, but I dont have the time & energy to continue discussing this, I've given my opinion

You're conflating this figure of 12,000ppm CO2 with the that of a normal breath cycle when wearing a mask (surgical type masks/face covering in the situations we're discussing here) and you're mentioning of fire fighters is a complete red herring and has no basis with day to day experiences we're talking about.

Btw you also haven't mentioned the type of mask that gave the result you stated but I suspect it's at least FFP2/N95 (valved/unvalved?), you can confirm.

In any case, even a quick estimation should give you some pause for thought (and I'm erring on the side of caution here).

500ml approx. in breath of air (that's at rest, greater for an individual doing "work", such as shopping)

50ml in mask (generous but lets work with it) with ~12,000ppm CO2
+
Balance 450ml external air @ ~500ppm CO2

Resulting 500ml = ~1650ppm CO2

And this is a worse case scenario, taking a person at rest, giving a generous volume "in the mask", and that all of the air "within the mask" is inhaled again and none of it is displaced during the inhalation.

Even at that it's still well within the WELs for CO2 (for an 8-hour period)

robinph

Lex Luthor wrote: »

they dont cos the air is refreshed at a very high rate

again, mentioned this already :rolleyes:

You must have missed the previous query about when these air systems were introduced. Surgeons have been wearing masks since the 1800s. When did the fancy air systems get introduced that are for the purpose of stopping the surgeon dying from CO2 poisoning and where are the articles covering these cases of poisoned surgeons?

Lex Luthor

I see where you are coming from, but then we would have the detector dropping to these lower levels which it doesnt

as soon as the sample tube is removed from under the mask and sampling fresh ambient air, it starts to drop to safe levels again within 60s

But its good to know someone on here is using a bit of science & maths to have an objective view and not just take the word of daddy Holohan

sorry, have to go now, back to work and save some lives for the terrors of CO2

robinph

Lex Luthor wrote: »

oh my god, how many times

exhaled air comprises of approx 40,000ppm

inhaled fresh air contains approx 400ppm

in the measurements I took, the CO2 content measured under the mask was approx 12,000ppm which is obviously a combination of inhaled & exhaled
if the content of CO2 under the mask has a reading of 12,000ppm, then you are OBVIOUSLY inhaling a much higher content of CO2 into your body than you would be without a mask



I cant give a definitive answer on this as the volume can vary depending on many factors which is defined as the space enclosed by a boundary or occupied by an object

So your claim is that the CO2 concentration in the air breathed in is 12000, but you don't know if the mask is holding 500ml of air at that time concentration or not. You have a fancy machine to measure CO2, but knowing the volume of air breathed in is too complicated and no way to guesstimate if the air in a mask is bigger or smaller than someone's lung capacity or not?

Thats me

saneman wrote: »

You're conflating this figure of 12,000ppm CO2 with the that of a normal breath cycle when wearing a mask (surgical type masks/face covering in the situations we're discussing here) and you're mentioning of fire fighters is a complete red herring and has no basis with day to day experiences we're talking about.

Btw you also haven't mentioned the type of mask that gave the result you stated but I suspect it's at least FFP2/N95 (valved/unvalved?), you can confirm.

In any case, even a quick estimation should give you some pause for thought (and I'm erring on the side of caution here).

500ml approx. in breath of air (that's at rest, greater for an individual doing "work", such as shopping)

50ml in mask (generous but lets work with it) with ~12,000ppm CO2
+
Balance 450ml external air @ ~500ppm CO2

Resulting 500ml = ~1650ppm CO2

And this is a worse case scenario, taking a person at rest, giving a generous volume "in the mask", and that all of the air "within the mask" is inhaled again and none of it is displaced during the inhalation.

Even at that it's still well within the WELs for CO2 (for an 8-hour period)

It is bigger.
Let me explain.

That uber-device takes up to 70 seconds to measure concentration by continuously sucking small amounts of air from the mask (0.5 liter per minute, should not have big impact on this experiment).

During sampling interval the person in the mask breathes subsequently inhaling and exhaling air. When he exhaling he has excessive pressure under mask, so no way external air to come in, it is only what what was exhailed, we can guess somewhat close to normal 40K ppm. When inhaling, the person in the mask inhales air from inside mask first and past that moment has external air inside mask. Lets say 400 ppm. Result of metering is value somewhere in between of these extremes and depends only on pattern of breathing, in other words on how long exhaled air stays in the mask and how long external air stays there. Or, how long time particular person's exhale takes and how long their inhale.

Therefore we need to use in formula 40K, regardless of these senseless 12K metered. With tidal volume 0.5l and guessed volume of residual air inside mask 50ml we will get something above 4K ppm which is quite high.

odyssey06

Lex Luthor wrote: »

they dont cos the air is refreshed at a very high rate

again, mentioned this already :rolleyes:

You keep getting challenged on it because your attempts to dodge the question are so obvious.
What about dentists?
What about all the surgeons who operated in the past and present outside of such pressure environments?
What about field hospitals?

Is there any evidence that the carbon dioxide levels in such an environment make a difference to the safety of wearing masks? Nope.
The design of an operating room is to have multiple air changes per hour and to stay at a higher air pressure than adjoining rooms or hallways... Keep in mind the entering air is usually 100% outside air and has the normal percentage of oxygen.

But apparently you claim masks have a negative health impact within 1 minute. So why would it make a difference whether the air is refreshed several times an hour?
It's an absolutely baseless falsehood you are spreading.

Your spoofing has been found out. We're not going to let you dodge this question which shows up your 'claims' as spoofing.

Lex Luthor

saneman wrote: »

Resulting 500ml = ~1650ppm CO2

Even at that it's still well within the WELs for CO2 (for an 8-hour period)

at these levels of CO2 over an 8hr period it causes drowsiness

Kids in school for 8hrs, plus you have students for exams doing after school study

well above 8hrs

Certainly not optimum for a healthy fresh air environment for which they are entitled to

The data I provided was readings within the mask, in front of the mouth and nose and using masks of disposable & re-usable

Does the exhaled air coming out get refreshed when you take a breath back in...YES
Does the CO2 get diluted...YES
I never disputed that
I said the levels were elevated more than fresh ambient air with a safe CO2 level of < 1000ppm

When you go to bed tonight, stick a mask on for an 8hr sleep and see how you feel in the morning and post here please

Lex Luthor

Thats me wrote: »

It is bigger.
Let me explain.

That uber-device takes up to 70 seconds to measure concentration by continuously sucking small amounts of air from the mask (0.5 liter per minute, should not have big impact on this experiment).

During sampling interval the person in the mask breathes subsequently inhaling and exhaling air. When he exhaling he has excessive pressure under mask, so no way external air to come in, it is only what what was exhailed, we can guess somewhat close to normal 40K ppm. When inhaling, the person in the mask inhales air from inside mask first and past that moment has external air inside mask. Lets say 400 ppm. Result of metering is value somewhere in between of these extremes and depends only on pattern of breathing, in other words on how long exhaled air stays in the mask and how long external air stays there. Or, how long time particular person's exhale takes and how long their inhale.

Therefore we need to use in formula 40K, regardless of these senseless 12K metered. With tidal volume 0.5l and guessed volume of residual air inside mask 50ml we will get something above 4K ppm which is quite high.

just to add that the t62.5 time is < 70s, therefore it takes less than 70s to get to 62.5% of the actual concentration. Therefore any reading I was getting below 70s was not yet the full concentration

12,000ppm was a reading I got from one mask, the heavier re-usable mask went to 14,000ppm which makes sense.

seriously who wants to be breathing in stale air all day, long term effects people

I will safely say at one point and possibly next year, we will hear our glorious leaders come out and tell us that masks are now no longer deemed a necessity but they will leave it up to every individual to make the decision if they want to wear one

robinph

Lex Luthor wrote: »

I will safely say at one point and possibly next year, we will hear our glorious leaders come out and tell us that masks are now no longer deemed a necessity but they will leave it up to every individual to make the decision if they want to wear one

Not exactly the riskiest prediction ever, about on a par with a prediction that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow morning sometime.

Lex Luthor

odyssey06 wrote: »

You keep getting challenged on it because your attempts to dodge the question are so obvious.
What about dentists?
What about all the surgeons who operated in the past and present outside of such pressure environments?
What about field hospitals?

Is there any evidence that the carbon dioxide levels in such an environment make a difference to the safety of wearing masks? Nope.
The design of an operating room is to have multiple air changes per hour and to stay at a higher air pressure than adjoining rooms or hallways... Keep in mind the entering air is usually 100% outside air and has the normal percentage of oxygen.

But apparently you claim masks have a negative health impact within 1 minute. So why would it make a difference whether the air is refreshed several times an hour?
It's an absolutely baseless falsehood you are spreading.

Your spoofing has been found out. We're not going to let you dodge this question which shows up your 'claims' as spoofing.

you just answered your own question by quoting Quora and what I said earlier on about refresh rates in operating theatres

the more air changes per hour the better chance of keeping the oxygen concentration higher, especially with the pressurized environment with a laminar air flow that keeps the air nice and fresh constantly around the people rather than stale air

robinph

Lex Luthor wrote: »

you just answered your own question by quoting Quora and what I said earlier on about refresh rates in operating theatres

the more air changes per hour the better chance of keeping the oxygen concentration higher, especially with the pressurized environment with a laminar air flow that keeps the air nice and fresh constantly around the people rather than stale air

You still missed the question about how people wearing masks survive in non fancy air system installed operating theatres, or dentists, or a multitude of other jobs that wear masks, or people working in operating theatres before these air systems were invented.

Lex Luthor

robinph wrote: »

You still missed the question about how people wearing masks survive in non fancy air system installed operating theatres, or dentists, or a multitude of other jobs that wear masks, or people working in operating theatres before these air systems were invented.

in the same way kids are surviving now wearing them for prolonged periods

doesnt mean to say its right or safe

so why do they have these "fancy" systems now if they are not needed?

Sconsey

Lex Luthor wrote: »

in the same way kids are surviving now wearing them for prolonged periods

doesnt mean to say its right or safe

so why do they have these "fancy" systems now if they are not needed?

They have 'fancy' systems to raise the air pressure in an operating theatre to keep the outside air from coming in. They want to keep germs from outside the room outside. Nothing to do with pumping in more oxygen. Any extra oxygen measured in an operating theatre is usually as a result of leaking from the oxygen being provided to the patient.

robinph

Lex Luthor wrote: »

in the same way kids are surviving now wearing them for prolonged periods

doesnt mean to say its right or safe

so why do they have these "fancy" systems now if they are not needed?

So where are the historical articles that show the reason for these air systems were installed was because surgeons were being affected by CO2 poisoning?
Where are the articles about all the surgeons dying before the system was invented?

If that is these reason these systems exist then you must have something to back that up. Why do dentists not have the same systems installed and how do they survive?

Thats me

Lex Luthor wrote: »

in the same way kids are surviving now wearing them for prolonged periods

Children have smaller lungs and tidal volumes, so it should impact them heavier than adults.