Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

AbusesToilets

Retr0gamer wrote: »

You've no problem posting circumstantial evidence yourself and never do this when called out on it yourself. Hypocrite.

As expected, you offer nothing but empty argument.

terryduff12

https://nypost.com/2020/10/02/chicago-cops-fatally-shoot-man-who-attacked-sergeant-with-butcher-knife/

Lucky she had back up could have went alot worse

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

We're delving into history now. I thought this thread was related to present day activities. What would the number of people killed by black criminals be in the same time frame? Rampant whataboutery as usual.

Claims of whataboutery from the poster who in the very same post tried to connect the actions of all black criminals to the BLM movement :rolleyes:

This thread is about BLM movement and the causes and results from it and there are no time limits on that thread title. BLM can be connected to the increase in right wing groups and other militia/terrorist activities, like the Kenosha shooting.

You and others continuously use the same tactics that were used against the civil rights movement by attempting to belittle or ignore their causes by focusing on the elements that break the law (many of these who have no connection to the movement and are condemned by the movement). It is perfectly appropriate to point out the hypocrisy of those use these methods while staying completely silent on the much more dangerous issue of right wing terrorism.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

So that's no to property destruction and general violence then? If they have broken the law, then they ought to be prosecuted accordingly.

Again I'll ask, would be ok with BLM protesters setting fire in the middle of the street, refusing to move when told by police, and pinning reporters up against a wall?

Why aren't you upset and posting about this as you are about anything related to BLM?

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

Again I'll ask, would be ok with BLM protesters setting fire in the middle of the street, refusing to move when told by police, and pinning reporters up against a wall?

Why aren't you upset and posting about this as you are about anything related to BLM?

As isolated incident in NYC, where as far as I can tell, there was no destruction, no looting, no attacks on the general populace. You'd see more violence in temple Bar on a Saturday night I'd wager. This a weak effort, even by your standards. I don't condone or support their actions, if the police tell you desist, then do so.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

Claims of whataboutery from the poster who in the very same post tried to connect the actions of all black criminals to the BLM movement :rolleyes:

This thread is about BLM movement and the causes and results from it and there are no time limits on that thread title. BLM can be connected to the increase in right wing groups and other militia/terrorist activities, like the Kenosha shooting.

You and others continuously use the same tactics that were used against the civil rights movement by attempting to belittle or ignore their causes by focusing on the elements that break the law (many of these who have no connection to the movement and are condemned by the movement). It is perfectly appropriate to point out the hypocrisy of those use these methods while staying completely silent on the much more dangerous issue of right wing terrorism.

How many riots have been lead by so called right wing extremists this year? What's the bill for property damage for them? It's incredible how you claim the theoretical threat they pose is greater than the very real destruction and death caused by BLM associated rioters.

I'm not sure expanded the scope of your argument to encompass all of history would serve you well. I only referenced a historical record in response to your shoehorning one into the conversation.

You want to lash out at those who rightly point out the many flaws and rank hypocrisy of BLM, in the classic fashion of true believers everywhere. Any dissent or questioning earns a label of racist or whatnot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPHUu9sAGKo

There's a very good discussion between Sam Harris and John McWhorter, where he talks about the religious like fervour BLM supporters have. Fits you and others here to a tee.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

How many riots have been lead by so called right wing extremists this year? What's the bill for property damage for them? It's incredible how you claim the theoretical threat they pose is greater than the very real destruction and death caused by BLM associated rioters.

I'm not sure expanded the scope of your argument to encompass all of history would serve you well. I only referenced a historical record in response to your shoehorning one into the conversation.

You want to lash out at those who rightly point out the many flaws and rank hypocrisy of BLM, in the classic fashion of true believers everywhere. Any dissent or questioning earns a label of racist or whatnot.

There's a very good discussion between Sam Harris and John McWhorter, where he talks about the religious like fervour BLM supporters have. Fits you and others here to a tee.

Theoretical threat?

If you'd read that document that you requested, you'd see that in those limited cases it tracked those right wing terrorists caused 255 deaths and approximately 603 people injured. You obviously hold the value of property way over the value of lives.

Keep focusing on broken windows when right wing terrorists are filling coffins and hospital beds (thankfully not as many as they try to).

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

Theoretical threat?

If you'd read that document that you requested, you'd see that in those limited cases it tracked those right wing terrorists caused 255 deaths and approximately 603 people injured. You obviously hold the value of property way over the value of lives.

Keep focusing on broken windows when right wing terrorists are filling coffins and hospital beds (thankfully not as many as they try to).

So that's a time span of 24 years. How many people have been killed by black people in that span? I'd say the threat of death from a black gang member is orders of magnitudes greater than from a white supremacist. Not least of all for black people. Of course, the FBI wouldn't dream of coming out with a statement on that though.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

So that's a time span of 24 years. How many people have been killed by black people in that span? I'd say the threat of death from a black gang member is orders of magnitudes greater than from a white supremacist. Not least of all for black people. Of course, the FBI wouldn't dream of coming out with a statement on that though.

You complain about whataboutery and again go to this well. What do murders committed by black people have to do with this?

I know your position is incredibly weak because you don't have many examples of BLM/Antifa/Left Wing group murders or even plots but that attempted leap is nonsense.

Evidence shows right wing terrorist groups are much more dangerous than BLM/Antifa/left wing groups. You simply don't care because your real issue isn't what the BLM/Antifa groups do, it is what they believe in. Stop pretending otherwise

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

You complain about whataboutery and again go to this well. What do murders committed by black people have to do with this?

I know your position is incredibly weak because you don't have many examples of BLM/Antifa/Left Wing murders or even plots but that attempted leap is nonsense.

You crack me up. You introduce a wiki article referencing over 20 years of history to support a claim that white supremacists have killed hundreds ( not that the original poster deigned to specify). If that's the criteria you're setting for the discussion, then reference to folks killed by black people is just as relevant.

One of BLMs raison d'etre is a claim that black people are subjected to racist killings. The stats clearly show otherwise. As ever, facts are an unwelcome intrusion to your argument.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

You crack me up. You introduce a wiki article referencing over 20 years of history to support a claim that white supremacists have killed hundreds ( not that the original poster deigned to specify). If that's the criteria you're setting for the discussion, then reference to folks killed by black people is just as relevant.

One of BLMs raison d'etre is a claim that black people are subjected to racist killings. The stats clearly show otherwise. As ever, facts are an unwelcome intrusion to your argument.

Forget about even reading it in detail, did you even open the link that you requested?

It wasn't a wiki article, it was a report from the Anti Defamation League, a civil rights organization founded over 100 years ago.

Below is what the poster stated and you asked for evidence. I provided a link to a report from a well respected organization that stated exactly what the poster claimed, despite it being only a subset of plots and attacks.

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

there has been hundreds of right wing terrorist plots and attacks, but hey look over there at black lives matter.

Once again you've shown there is no point in trying to discuss this topic with you, as you can't do it in good faith.

A claim is made contradicting your opinion -> you ask for evidence -> evidence is provided -> you completely ignore the evidence -> you try to shift the topic.

The cycle goes on over and over. There is no point in continuing

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

Forget about even reading it in detail, did you even open the link that you requested?

It wasn't a wiki article, it was a report from the Anti Defamation League, a civil rights organization founded over 100 years ago.

Below is what the poster stated and you asked for evidence. I provided a link to a report from a well respected organization that stated exactly what the poster claimed, despite it being only a subset of plots and attacks.



Once again you've shown there is no point in trying to discuss this topic with you, as you can't do it in good faith.

A claim is made contradicting your opinion -> you ask for evidence -> evidence is provided -> you completely ignore the evidence -> you try to shift the topic.

The cycle goes on over and over. There is no point in continuing

I didn't ignore the evidence, I questioned it's relevance to a thread about BLM. You want to expand the conversation, fair enough. Don't run away from the conversation that entails.

What class of organisation has killed more people in the timeframe 1993-2017, white supremacists or black gangs?

Simple question.

Tell me how

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I didn't ignore the evidence, I questioned it's relevance to a thread about BLM. You want to expand the conversation, fair enough. Don't run away from the conversation that entails.

What class of organisation has killed more people in the timeframe 1993-2017, white supremacists or black gangs?

Simple question.

Black Gangs have no relevance in a conversation about how people from particular ethnicities or backgrounds are mistreated up to and including the point of being killed by people who have been specifically hired to help protect them and or paid with public money.

Or is that too complicated to understand?

Frankie Machine

Tell me how wrote: »

Black Gangs have no relevance in a conversation about how people from particular ethnicities or backgrounds are mistreated up to and including the point of being killed by people who have been specifically hired to help protect them and or paid with public money.

Or is that too complicated to understand?

So just rename the organisation them. How about...

'Black Lives Matter When They Are Killed By People Who Are Paid With Public Money To Protect Them, But When Killed By Black Gangs... Not So Much'

Foxtrol

Tell me how wrote: »

Black Gangs have no relevance in a conversation about how people from particular ethnicities or backgrounds are mistreated up to and including the point of being killed by people who have been specifically hired to help protect them and or paid with public money.

Or is that too complicated to understand?

From the response clearly the answer to this question was yes.

Frankie Machine

Foxtrol wrote: »

From the response clearly the answer to this question was yes.

It was a stupid question in the first place.

You won't see that of course, because you've chosen to take a side.

I, on the other hand, am not partisan in this particular thing either way, but simply know the difference between right and wrong when it comes to murder.

Irrespective of the perpetrator.

I therefore have no need of your (pl.) fake distinctions and the mental gymnastics required to devise them.

Tell me how

Frankie Machine wrote: »

So just rename the organisation them. How about...

'Black Lives Matter When They Are Killed By People Who Are Paid With Public Money To Protect Them, But When Killed By Black Gangs... Not So Much'

It seems you think BLM should only be protesting with a demand for eternal life.

Black people die from obesity, smoking, drugs, murder, accidents, old age etc. No one is saying that it must be possible to stop all these.

What's the difference between these causes of death and those experienced by Breonna Taylor, Eric Garner, George Floyd, Tamir Rice amongst others?

Frankie Machine

Tell me how wrote: »

Black people die from murder...

What's the difference between these... and those experienced by Breonna Taylor, Eric Garner, George Floyd, Tamir Rice amongst others?

None. There is no difference worth making a distinction about.

Since you phrased the question in precisely such a way as to suggest precisely that, let me thank you now for making the point for me.

It's a distinction that BLM insists on making, however.

...obesity, smoking, drugs, accidents, old age etc. No one is saying that it must be possible to stop all these.

Our society has or a long time now made a distinction between 'murder', and all of those categories above. They're important, but irrelevant to this discussion.

Tell me how

Frankie Machine wrote: »

None. There is no difference worth making a distinction about.

Since you phrased the question in precisely such a way as to suggest precisely that, let me thank you now for making the point for me.

It's a distinction that BLM insists on making, however.



Our society has or a long time now made a distinction between 'murder', and all of those categories above. They're important, but irrelevant to this discussion.

It's your opinion there is no difference 'worth making a distinction about'.

Interesting choice of words. I completely disagree as what it implies is that some lives are of less value than others.

Frankie Machine

Tell me how wrote: »

It's your opinion there is no difference 'worth making a distinction about'.

Interesting choice of words. I completely disagree as what it implies is that some lives are of less value than others.

It implies totally the opposite.

'No difference worth making a distinction about' means that all lives are exactly equal.

There is no difference between them, and any attempt to make such distinctions is of no worth.

Such as the kind of distinctions people make when they claim that Black lives matter, but want to ignore Black Gang murders of Black people.


Your username is so apt.

Everything has to be explained to you.

moon2

Frankie Machine wrote: »

None. There is no difference worth making a distinction about.

If you see no difference between a criminal gang murdering people, and law enforcement (a public body supposed to protect the civilian population) killing an unusually high proportion of people from a particular minority, then that's conversation over.

Frankie Machine

moon2 wrote: »

If you see no difference between a criminal gang murdering people, and law enforcement (a public body supposed to protect the civilian population) killing an unusually high proportion of people from a particular minority, then that's conversation over.

I see the distinction that others are trying to make, and I reject it as disingenuous.

But I see no difference to the victims, no. They're dead due to unlawful activity in either case.

Odd that an organisation allegedly dedicated to the idea that Black lives matter, have a hierarchy of victims.

I don't.

AbusesToilets

moon2 wrote: »

If you see no difference between a criminal gang murdering people, and law enforcement (a public body supposed to protect the civilian population) killing an unusually high proportion of people from a particular minority, then that's conversation over.

Except that's exactly what doesn't happen. You've nicely shown the lie at the heart of BLM's argument.

moon2

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Except that's exactly what doesn't happen. You've nicely shown the lie at the heart of BLM's argument.

You're entitled to hold whatever opinion you'd like. I'm not going to try and persuade you otherwise. No-one has been able to so far as you reject everything which goes against your beliefs. I will continue to base mine on the evidence.

AbusesToilets

moon2 wrote: »

You're entitled to hold whatever opinion you'd like. I'm not going to try and persuade you otherwise. No-one has been able to so far as you reject everything which goes against your beliefs. I will continue to base mine on the evidence.

The evidence that shows that there is no racial cause behind police shootings?

The evidence that black and Hispanic officers are more likely to kill black suspects?

The evidence that black commit the majority of murders, mostly against other black people?

That evidence?

Tell me how

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The evidence that shows that there is no racial cause behind police shootings?

The evidence that black and Hispanic officers are more likely to kill black suspects?

The evidence that black commit the majority of murders, mostly against other black people?

That evidence?

Amazing to think someone would advocate against police reform using the argument, 'yeah but it's other black people killing them' while simultaneously arguing there isn't institutional racism.

Thankfully, most sensible people see something not working correctly and focus on changing it, others, shrug their shoulders and say 'why bother'.

ancapailldorcha

Enough of the insults and the goading please. Posts deleted.

droidus

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Except that's exactly what doesn't happen. You've nicely shown the lie at the heart of BLM's argument.

It has been well established, time and again by multiple studies that although more white people are killed by police in total, that black people are at least 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white people. A Harvard public health study from June of this year found that Black Americans are 3.23 times more likely than white Americans to be killed by police.

The reasons behind this can be argued, but the numbers themselves cannot.

droidus

Of course, and one could point to tens of thousands of such incidents. You could also make a very strong case for an almost uninterrupted centuries long festival of violence, domination, oppression and disenfranchisement of black Americans, of which contemporary poverty, a private industrial prison system and police brutality and murder are just more manifestations of the same old system.

AbusesToilets

droidus wrote: »

It has been well established, time and again by multiple studies that although more white people are killed by police in total, that black people are at least 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white people. A Harvard public health study from June of this year found that Black Americans are 3.23 times more likely than white Americans to be killed by police.

The reasons behind this can be argued, but the numbers themselves cannot.

The reasons are straightforward. black people commit more crime, and generally are more violence as a group, therefore they are policed more and as a result have more interactions with law enforcement. They tend to have more violent negative interactions as well.

Can't throw out a statistic about them having a higher level of police interactions per capita than other ethnicities, without mentioning the reasons behind it.