Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

So you're going to expect me to provide a higher standard of evidence than your claims about BLM protesters? You won't be accepting youtube speeches and tweets of randomers as evidence? :rolleyes:

You just claimed there was evidence to support the argument for systemic racism in policing. It's your fundamental position. Don't let me stand in the way of you providing proof.

The floor is yours.

Tell me how

AbusesToilets wrote: »

You just claimed there was evidence to support the argument for systemic racism in policing. It's your fundamental position. Don't let me stand in the way of you providing proof.

The floor is yours.

Washington Post

Note: This article runs at just over 10,000 words and covers racism within the criminal justice system in the US. It contains over 150 unique references, most of which are linked to the referenced report.

Here are some examples. Bold added by me.

A massive study published in May 2020 of 95 million traffic stops by 56 police agencies between 2011 and 2018 found that while black people were much more likely to be pulled over than whites, the disparity lessens at night, when police are less able to distinguish the race of the driver. The study also found that blacks were more likely to be searched after a stop, though whites were more likely to be found with illicit drugs. The darker the sky, the less pronounced the disparity between white and black motorists. The study also found that in states that had legalized marijuana, the racial disparity narrowed but was still significant.

An August 2019 study published by the National Academy of Sciences based on police-shooting databases found that between 2013 and 2018, black men were about 2.5 times more likely than white men to be killed by police, and that black men have a 1-in-1,000 chance of dying at the hands of police. Black women were 1.4 more times likely to be killed than white women. Latino men were 1.3 to 1.4 times more likely to be killed than white men. Latino women were between 12 percent and 23 percent less likely to be killed than white women.

An October 2019 report in the Los Angeles Times found that during traffic stops, “24% of black drivers and passengers were searched, compared with 16% of Latinos and 5% of whites.” The same study also found that police were slightly more likely to find drugs, weapons or other contraband among whites.

A 2019 survey of traffic tickets in Indianapolis and its suburbs found that in the city, black drivers received 1.5 tickets for every white driver. In the suburban town of Fishers, the disparity grew to 4.5 tickets, and in the wealthy suburb of Carmel, black motorists received 18 tickets for every ticket issued to a white motorist.

A 2020 study commissioned by the Charlottesville city council found significant racial disparities in the city and surrounding county’s criminal justice systems in five key areas: “seriousness of charges brought, the number of companion charges, bail-bond release decisions, the length of stay awaiting trial, and guilty outcomes.” In the city, black men were 8.5 percent of the population, but comprised more than half the arrests. In the county, black men were 4.4 percent of the population, but comprised 37.6 percent of arrests.

As of 2018, Missouri had been keeping data on traffic stops for 18 years, and for 18 years, the numbers consistently showed that statewide, black people were more likely to be pulled over than white people. The data from 2017 showed the problem actually got worse, with blacks 85 percent more likely to be stopped.

Though more than half the people on Mississippi’s gang registry are white, every person prosecuted under the state’s anti-gang law from 2010 to 2017 has been black.

A survey of seven death penalty cases in Columbus, Ga., going back to the 1970s found that prosecutors struck 41 of 44 prospective black jurors. Six of the seven trials featured all-white juries.

In June 2018, American Public Media’s “In the Dark” podcast did painstaking research on the 26-year career of Mississippi District Attorney Doug Evans and found that over the course of his career, Evans’s office struck 50 percent of prospective black jurors, vs. just 11 percent of whites.

Brian?

Tell me how wrote: »

Washington Post

Note: This article runs at just over 10,000 words and covers racism within the criminal justice system in the US. It contains over 150 unique references, most of which are linked to the referenced report.

Here are some examples. Bold added by me.

You're arguing with someone who believes shooting someone in the back as they run away is reasonable. You're wasting your time. I have up a week ago.

Shai

AbusesToilets wrote: »

You just claimed there was evidence to support the argument for systemic racism in policing. It's your fundamental position. Don't let me stand in the way of you providing proof.

The floor is yours.

Here you go, a just completed Harvard study says exactly that.

Another contribution is that the report reveals how institutional racism permeates the whole criminal justice system and ends up playing a big role in the racial disparities in incarceration rates in the state. It’s not just disparate treatment by police, prosecutors, or judges once somebody is in the system. There is also a legislative piece. We have certain behaviors that are considered a risk to public safety that are treated differently based on stereotypes about who engages in those behaviors.

Retr0gamer

No point posting actual scientific journals. Racists, bigots and right wingers don't believe in the scientific process and prefer tabloid rags and social media.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

You just claimed there was evidence to support the argument for systemic racism in policing. It's your fundamental position. Don't let me stand in the way of you providing proof.

The floor is yours.

While I slept other posters gave you plenty of evidence. There is much more out there if you want to take your head out of the sand.

Now it is time for you to provide proof of your views that the wider BLM movement condones or promotes violence (no, outlier tweets or youtube clips of randomers is not proof related to thousands of organisers and millions of protesting).

The floor is yours.

AbusesToilets

Tell me how wrote: »

Washington Post

Note: This article runs at just over 10,000 words and covers racism within the criminal justice system in the US. It contains over 150 unique references, most of which are linked to the referenced report.

Here are some examples. Bold added by me.

Yes, you've posted this article before. It gives no consideration to the higher levels of crime committed by blacks as reason for their increased interactions with police. You'll note by it's absence the most salient statistic with respect to policing and black communities, 13% of the population, >50% of the violent crime and murders. None of the snippets you post from that article break down what the crime rate is in each city, and how that drives or impacts policing.

That article would present every disparity as evidence of racism. That's not to say there is no discrimination taking place, but I would argue in many circumstances it's more of a chicken and egg situation. More crime occurs in black communities, so there's more police presence, which means more black people having interactions with police. Is that racist or a function of putting resources against a problem?

School suspensions and the school-to-prison pipeline

A 2011 study of school discipline in Texas found that after isolating race by adjusting for 83 other variables, a black student had a 31 percent greater chance of being disciplined than an identical white or Hispanic student.

A study of suspensions in Chicago schools from 2013 to 2014 found that black male students were more than five times more likely to be suspended than white and Asian male students. Black female students were seven times more likely than white and Asian female students. After adjusting for academic level and social disadvantages, black males were still five times more likely to be suspended, while the disparity for black females grew to 13 times more likely.

A Brown Center on Education Policy study released in 2017 found that suspension rates of black students begin to escalate during middle school, and that the racial disparity in suspensions increases dramatically once black students comprise 16 percent or more of a school’s student population.

Data released in 2016 from the Department of Education found that black students were nearly four times more likely to be suspended than white students.

Take this section as it relates to school suspension. Does this represent racism, or does it reflect a cultural issue? I would suggest cultural, you would say likely it's racist.

The largest determinant in outcome for the US justice system is whether you have the money to afford proper representation. Be poor, go to jail. That holds true regardless of skin colour. If more black people suffer poor outcomes, is that a reflection of racism or a reflection that they are more likely to be poor and thus unable to get competent legal representation? I don't it's as clear cut as you portray it to be.

I'd note you also failed to reference the section at the end of the article which lists studies that disagree with the premise.

The dissent — contrarian studies on race and the criminal justice system

An August 2019 study published by the National Academy of Sciences found “no evidence of anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparities across shootings, and White officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers. Instead, race-specific crime strongly predicts civilian race. This suggests that increasing diversity among officers by itself is unlikely to reduce racial disparity in police shootings.” The study, which has been widely cited by conservatives and other critics of the notion that policing is plagued by racial bias, has been widely criticized, including in two subsequent letters to the editor where it was published. It was also later corrected. One letter noted that if you adjust for age and remove suicidal adults, “Young unarmed nonsuicidal male victims of [police] fatal use of force are 13 times more likely to be Black than White.” (Here’s a more detailed version of that analysis. And here’s a more detailed critique of the study in general.) The authors also wrote a response to their critics.

A 2019 study from the Council on Criminal Justice found that between 2000 and 2016 the racial disparity in state prison, jail, parole and probation populations had narrowed. In 2000, black people were 8.3 times more likely to be imprisoned than white people. By 2016, the figure had dropped to 5.1. The study also found that while the number of overall crimes and arrests dropped, that drop was partially offset by an increase in length of prison stays. Similar studies have also found that the racial disparity in prison and jail populations has dropped, though blacks remain significantly more likely to be incarcerated.

A December 2019 study from Boston University could be seen as both dissenting from the consensus and supporting it. The study found that among fatal police shootings from 2013 and 2017, the race of the individual victim wasn’t as important as how segregated the neighborhood was where the shooting took place. Blacks in mixed neighborhoods were less likely to be shot than blacks in segregated neighborhoods, even after controlling for crime rates. The study suggests racial disparities in fatal shootings might be driven more by police bias about “black areas” and “black neighborhoods” than the race of the individuals who were shot.

A longitudinal study released in 2018 by the People’s Policy Project suggests that class is a more prominent driver of incarceration than race.

A 2015 study of parolees found that “violation rates are consistently higher for African American parolees, a result not consistent with a parole board bias against African Americans.” A similar study of Pennsylvania parolees from 1999 to 2003 found high recidivism rates among blacks, again suggesting that parole boards were not discriminating based on race. Neither study accounted for the possibility of racial bias among parole officers — that officers might be more inclined to find technical violations against black parolees than against white ones.

A 2017 study of school suspensions at the five largest school districts in Wisconsin found that the districts were implementing suspensions in a way that was counterproductive to a positive learning environment but that there was little evidence that the suspensions were driven by racial bias.

A 2015 analysis of prison data by the Marshall Project found that though there are still wide racial disparities when it comes to mass incarceration, the black-white divide in prison populations is narrowing, particularly among women. Unfortunately, the gap appears to be widening among juveniles.

A 2002 study of alleged racial profiling in New Jersey found no such bias among New Jersey police officers. Instead, it found that black motorists were more likely to drive above the speed limit. A study of North Carolina drivers came to a similar conclusion. Other researchers have since questioned the methodology of both studies.

A 2006 study of police stops in Oakland measured stops during the day with those made at night, on the theory that if police officers were profiling, there should be more stops of black and Latino motorists during daytime hours, when race would be more discernible. The study found no significant discrepancy.

In 2016, the New York Times reported a working paper (i.e., not peer-reviewed) by Harvard’s Roland G. Fryer Jr. found that though there was evidence of racial bias in how and when police generally use force, there was no evidence of bias when it came to police shootings. Fryer later criticized the way his study had been reported, and critics (including me) pointed out several limitations to his study.

AbusesToilets

Brian? wrote: »

You're arguing with someone who believes shooting someone in the back as they run away is reasonable. You're wasting your time. I have up a week ago.

Convenient that you gave up when asked to provide some evidence that Americans were suffering oppression under a putative Trump tyranny.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

While I slept other posters gave you plenty of evidence. There is much more out there if you want to take your head out of the sand.

Now it is time for you to provide proof of your views that the wider BLM movement condones or promotes violence (no, outlier tweets or youtube clips of randomers is not proof related to thousands of organisers and millions of protesting).

The floor is yours.

How helpful that you can handwave away any example as an outlier when it suits your position.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-leader-if-change-doesnt-happen-we-will-burn-down-this-system/

If this country doesn’t give us what we want, then we will burn down this system and replace it. All right? And I could be speaking figuratively. I could be speaking literally. It’s a matter of interpretation,” Hawk Newsome said during an interview Wednesday evening on “The Story” with Martha MacCallum.
What is this country rewarding? What behavior is it listening to? Obviously not marching. But when people get aggressive and they escalate their protests, cops get fired, Republican politicians talking about police reform,” he said.

“I don’t condone nor do I condemn rioting,” Newsome continued. “But I’m just telling you what I observed.”

MacCallum asked Newsome what Black Lives Matter hoped to achieve through violence.

“Wow, it’s interesting that you would pose that question like that,” Newsome responded, “because this country is built upon violence. What was the American Revolution? What’s our diplomacy across the globe?”

“We go in and we blow up countries and we replace their leaders with leaders who we like. So for any American to accuse us of being violent is extremely hypocritical,” Newsome added.

https://www.newsweek.com/black-lives-matter-chicago-defends-looting-reparations-1524502

A Black Lives Matter Chicago organizer has defended the mass looting that took place in the city early Monday, calling it "reparations."

Ariel Atkins spoke outside a police station in the South Loop on 18th and South State Street on Monday, where protesters had gathered to call for the release of those who were arrested.

"I don't care if somebody decides to loot a Gucci or a Macy's or a Nike because that makes sure that that person eats. That makes sure that that person has clothes," Atkins said, according to NBC Chicago.

"That's reparations. That is reparations. Anything they want to take, take it because these businesses have insurance. They're going to get their money back. My people aren't getting anything."

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

How helpful that you can handwave away any example as an outlier when it suits your position.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-leader-if-change-doesnt-happen-we-will-burn-down-this-system/

That's your evidence??

Despite again being one random guy who in the article states he doesn't condone rioting.

Before you say 'he's a BLM leader', no he isn't. This is what happens when you take your sources from right wing sources peddling fear.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/for-immediate-release-statement-by-kailee-scales-managing-director-of-blm-global-network/

Today, Donald Trump attributed a quote to a “Black Lives Matter leader” on his social media. We have traced these comments to Hawk Newsome. Hawk Newsome has no relation to the Black Lives Matter Global Network (“BLM”) founded by Patrisse Cullors, Alicia Garza, and Opal Tometi — and is not the “president” of BLM or any of its chapters. Only BLM chapters who adhere to BLM’s principles and code of ethics are permitted to use the BLM name. The reason for this is simple: unaffiliated uses of BLM’s name are confusing to people who may wrongly associate the unsanctioned group and its views and actions with BLM.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

That's your evidence??

Despite again being one random guy who in the article states he doesn't condone rioting.

Before you say 'he's a BLM leader', no he isn't. This is what happens when you take your sources from right wing sources peddling fear.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/for-immediate-release-statement-by-kailee-scales-managing-director-of-blm-global-network/

Handwaving. Colour me shocked. I find it amazing how BLM can have no leadership when it suits your argument, yet when it doesn't, you can claim that someone isn't a leader.

Retr0gamer

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Yes, you've posted this article before. It gives no consideration to the higher levels of crime committed by blacks as reason for their increased interactions with police. You'll note by it's absence the most salient statistic with respect to policing and black communities, 13% of the population, >50% of the violent crime and murders. None of the snippets you post from that article break down what the crime rate is in each city, and how that drives or impacts policing.

That article would present every disparity as evidence of racism. That's not to say there is no discrimination taking place, but I would argue in many circumstances it's more of a chicken and egg situation. More crime occurs in black communities, so there's more police presence, which means more black people having interactions with police. Is that racist or a function of putting resources against a problem?

Take this section as it relates to school suspension. Does this represent racism, or does it reflect a cultural issue? I would suggest cultural, you would say likely it's racist.

The largest determinant in outcome for the US justice system is whether you have the money to afford proper representation. Be poor, go to jail. That holds true regardless of skin colour. If more black people suffer poor outcomes, is that a reflection of racism or a reflection that they are more likely to be poor and thus unable to get competent legal representation? I don't it's as clear cut as you portray it to be.

I'd note you also failed to reference the section at the end of the article which lists studies that disagree with the premise.

You really like to cherry pick information to suit your own agenda don't you.

I mean in the first part you bring up black people being involved in more crimes yet ignore socio-economic why this might be so you can use it to validate your statement that there's no racial bias in the justice system.

And then you go ahead and blame socio-economic factors for the harsher sentences black people get from the justice system. One doesn't cancel out the other. If the justice system is both weighed against socio-economically less well off and the majority of those people are black then it points to the justice system being racial biased.

And your first point is moot as well as it's you cherry picking information to satisfy your own racist confirmation bias. You should listen to actual scientific studies that have been peer reviewed that all show that the justice system, including the police force, is racially biased. Those account for all the facts and biased by your own racist agenda.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Handwaving. Colour me shocked. I find it amazing how BLM can have no leadership when it suits your argument, yet when it doesn't, you can claim that someone isn't a leader.

I'm not surprised you're finding things amazing when you're still struggling with basic concepts between the difference between the BLM movement and BLM organisation (despite this being explained to you over and over again). The former has no leadership the latter does (though even then it is generally very decentralized to local groups).

It says it all that for your demand for evidence systematic racism we were able to provide numerous peer reviewed studies, which you refuse to accept, yet for your claim that the BLM movement promotes or condones violence all you can provide is statements from randomers, promoted by right wing media.

You've made it obvious you have nothing tangible to support your point of view aside from how you feel. It really makes discussions pointless.

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'm not surprised you're finding things amazing when you're still struggling with basic concepts between the difference between the BLM movement and BLM organisation (despite this being explained to you over and over again). The former has no leadership the latter does (though even then it is generally very decentralized to local groups).

It says it all that for your demand for evidence systematic racism we were able to provide numerous peer reviewed studies, which you refuse to accept, yet for your claim that the BLM movement promotes or condones violence all you can provide is statements from randomers, promoted by right wing media.

You've made it obvious you have nothing tangible to support your point of view aside from how you feel. It really makes discussions pointless.

I responded to the article provided, not by you of course. You continue to shift definitions when it suits your argument, as there's no solid basis for your claim to systemic racism in policing. Did you also miss the peer reviewed studies that found contrary to your claim, or are they not relevant?

AbusesToilets

Retr0gamer wrote: »

You really like to cherry pick information to suit your own agenda don't you.

I mean in the first part you bring up black people being involved in more crimes yet ignore socio-economic why this might be so you can use it to validate your statement that there's no racial bias in the justice system.

And then you go ahead and blame socio-economic factors for the harsher sentences black people get from the justice system. One doesn't cancel out the other. If the justice system is both weighed against socio-economically less well off and the majority of those people are black then it points to the justice system being racial biased.

And your first point is moot as well as it's you cherry picking information to satisfy your own racist confirmation bias. You should listen to actual scientific studies that have been peer reviewed that all show that the justice system, including the police force, is racially biased. Those account for all the facts and biased by your own racist agenda.

Laughable, claiming cherry picking in regards to an article contrived of nothing but cherry picked studies. Lacking completely in context or greater detail. No mention of comparable crime rates, or greater social trends in those communities.

Socio-economic issues always play a part in driving crime rates, but that doesn't give a pass to black communities. Everyone has choices in life, and clearly many choose poorly. Always blaming others for the problems found in their communities doesn't do anything to solve them. White people from similar poor backgrounds face the same barriers in the legal system, as pointed out in one of the cherry picked studies listed at the end of that article. They face the same issues in education and employment. That doesn't make it a racist system.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I responded to the article provided, not by you of course. You continue to shift definitions when it suits your argument, as there's no solid basis for your claim to systemic racism in policing. Did you also miss the peer reviewed studies that found contrary to your claim, or are they not relevant?

You've failed to provide any credible evidence for your opinions regarding the BLM movement promoting or condoning violence. The views of two random people is the best you can do (one who even states he doesn't condone violence).

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

You've failed to provide any credible evidence for your opinions regarding the BLM movement promoting or condoning violence. The views of two random people is the best you can do (one who even states he doesn't condone violence).

Yes, we've established that you view anyone who does express those views as outliers, not representative of BLM.

Tell me how

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Yes, you've posted this article before. It gives no consideration to the higher levels of crime committed by blacks as reason for their increased interactions with police. You'll note by it's absence the most salient statistic with respect to policing and black communities, 13% of the population, >50% of the violent crime and murders. None of the snippets you post from that article break down what the crime rate is in each city, and how that drives or impacts policing.

That article would present every disparity as evidence of racism. That's not to say there is no discrimination taking place, but I would argue in many circumstances it's more of a chicken and egg situation. More crime occurs in black communities, so there's more police presence, which means more black people having interactions with police. Is that racist or a function of putting resources against a problem?



Take this section as it relates to school suspension. Does this represent racism, or does it reflect a cultural issue? I would suggest cultural, you would say likely it's racist.

The largest determinant in outcome for the US justice system is whether you have the money to afford proper representation. Be poor, go to jail. That holds true regardless of skin colour. If more black people suffer poor outcomes, is that a reflection of racism or a reflection that they are more likely to be poor and thus unable to get competent legal representation? I don't it's as clear cut as you portray it to be.

I'd note you also failed to reference the section at the end of the article which lists studies that disagree with the premise.

A laughable response. Of course you would suggest cultural. It is the basis from which your opinions are formed and indicates that you think that the issues afflicting black communities are indeed related to decades of disparity in funding, opportunity and the application of red lining type practices.

Do you want to take the report on its merits or not?
I am perfectly fine with you utilising the last ten items containing contrarian reports because that is exactly what good practise is in using all data, comparing and contrasting and making informed opinions.

And if you feel this content is of value, then I trust you accept the 140 examples of systemic racism which came before it.

AbusesToilets

Tell me how wrote: »

A laughable response. Of course you would suggest cultural. It is the basis from which your opinions are formed and indicates that you think that the issues afflicting black communities are indeed related to decades of disparity in funding, opportunity and the application of red lining type practices.

Do you want to take the report on its merits or not?
I am perfectly fine with you utilising the last ten items containing contrarian reports because that is exactly what good practise is in using all data, comparing and contrasting and making informed opinions.

And if you feel this content is of value, then I trust you accept the 140 examples of systemic racism which came before it.

So not addressing the complete lack of context to frame those studies eh? Nothing to be made of the comparable crime rates between black folks and others and how that shapes police interactions? Quel surprise.

As is typical, you look for a external source for all issues, no profit in accepting any blame amongst their own communities.

Shai

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I responded to the article provided, not by you of course. You continue to shift definitions when it suits your argument, as there's no solid basis for your claim to systemic racism in policing. Did you also miss the peer reviewed studies that found contrary to your claim, or are they not relevant?

Let us take a look at these studies.

The dissent — contrarian studies on race and the criminal justice system

An August 2019 study published by the National Academy of Sciences found “no evidence of anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparities across shootings, and White officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers. Instead, race-specific crime strongly predicts civilian race. This suggests that increasing diversity among officers by itself is unlikely to reduce racial disparity in police shootings.” The study, which has been widely cited by conservatives and other critics of the notion that policing is plagued by racial bias, has been widely criticized, including in two subsequent letters to the editor where it was published. It was also later corrected. One letter noted that if you adjust for age and remove suicidal adults, “Young unarmed nonsuicidal male victims of [police] fatal use of force are 13 times more likely to be Black than White.” (Here’s a more detailed version of that analysis. And here’s a more detailed critique of the study in general.) The authors also wrote a response to their critics.

The article states that white offices are not more likely to shoot people of color than officers of color are. At no point does it claim that people of color aren't shot WAY more than others.

A 2019 study from the Council on Criminal Justice found that between 2000 and 2016 the racial disparity in state prison, jail, parole and probation populations had narrowed. In 2000, black people were 8.3 times more likely to be imprisoned than white people. By 2016, the figure had dropped to 5.1. The study also found that while the number of overall crimes and arrests dropped, that drop was partially offset by an increase in length of prison stays. Similar studies have also found that the racial disparity in prison and jail populations has dropped, though blacks remain significantly more likely to be incarcerated.

So... massive discrepancies exist and the article confirms this?

A December 2019 study from Boston University could be seen as both dissenting from the consensus and supporting it. The study found that among fatal police shootings from 2013 and 2017, the race of the individual victim wasn’t as important as how segregated the neighborhood was where the shooting took place. Blacks in mixed neighborhoods were less likely to be shot than blacks in segregated neighborhoods, even after controlling for crime rates. The study suggests racial disparities in fatal shootings might be driven more by police bias about “black areas” and “black neighborhoods” than the race of the individuals who were shot.

So a black person in a mixed high-crime neighbourhood is less likely to get shot as a black person in a black neighbourhood with less crime? And this somehow disputes systemic racism? All that tells me is that cops patrolling all black neighbourhoods behave worse.

A longitudinal study released in 2018 by the People’s Policy Project suggests that class is a more prominent driver of incarceration than race.

This one has been addressed by others already.

A 2015 study of parolees found that “violation rates are consistently higher for African American parolees, a result not consistent with a parole board bias against African Americans.” A similar study of Pennsylvania parolees from 1999 to 2003 found high recidivism rates among blacks, again suggesting that parole boards were not discriminating based on race. Neither study accounted for the possibility of racial bias among parole officers — that officers might be more inclined to find technical violations against black parolees than against white ones.

You think that might be important in a discussion about systemic racism?

A 2017 study of school suspensions at the five largest school districts in Wisconsin found that the districts were implementing suspensions in a way that was counterproductive to a positive learning environment but that there was little evidence that the suspensions were driven by racial bias.

This is about suspensions and not policing? Not sure why this is even here.

A 2015 analysis of prison data by the Marshall Project found that though there are still wide racial disparities when it comes to mass incarceration, the black-white divide in prison populations is narrowing, particularly among women. Unfortunately, the gap appears to be widening among juveniles.

This is the same thing as above. Once again, massive discrepancies exist and the article confirms this.

A 2002 study of alleged racial profiling in New Jersey found no such bias among New Jersey police officers. Instead, it found that black motorists were more likely to drive above the speed limit. A study of North Carolina drivers came to a similar conclusion. Other researchers have since questioned the methodology of both studies.

A 2006 study of police stops in Oakland measured stops during the day with those made at night, on the theory that if police officers were profiling, there should be more stops of black and Latino motorists during daytime hours, when race would be more discernible. The study found no significant discrepancy.

Yeah, so the sample size of this study (8,000 drivers) was brought into dispute and the study has since been redone using a much much larger group of 95 million traffic stops. You can find it here. They come to some very different conclusions.

In 2016, the New York Times reported a working paper (i.e., not peer-reviewed) by Harvard’s Roland G. Fryer Jr. found that though there was evidence of racial bias in how and when police generally use force, there was no evidence of bias when it came to police shootings. Fryer later criticized the way his study had been reported, and critics (including me) pointed out several limitations to his study.

Then of course there is the recent Harvard study on racial disparities in the Massachusetts criminal system which was undertaken at the request of the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts. It pretty much shows you best not be black not only when it comes to interactions with police, but when dealing with the Criminal Justice System as a whole.

Anyway, this is my second and last post in this thread, as it's clear that those who scream for scientific studies the loudest are the least likely to accept their findings.

AbusesToilets

Shai wrote: »

Let us take a look at these studies.



Then of course there is the recent Harvard study on racial disparities in the Massachusetts criminal system which was undertaken at the request of the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts. It pretty much shows you best not be black not only when it comes to interactions with police, but when dealing with the Criminal Justice System as a whole.

Anyway, this is my second and last post in this thread, as it's clear that those who scream for scientific studies the loudest are the least likely to accept their findings.

So studies showing that blacks are more likely to be involved in shooting incidents, especially in segregated communities. I wonder what correlation could be drawn from that and the overall rate for violent crime?

Is there some form of racism at play that sees ~50 people getting shot in Chicago every week?

Shai

I wonder what correlation could be drawn from someone asking for stats and facts and then refusing to look at them? Anyway, I'll leave you to your crazy-uncle-we-dont-talk-about performance.

Good luck.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Yes, we've established that you view anyone who does express those views as outliers, not representative of BLM.

Pointing to two people in a selection of millions is the definition of outliers.

How do you not understand that?

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

Pointing to two people in a selection of millions is the definition of outliers.

How do you not understand that?

Two people acting in leadership positions, leading rallies and protests. In two of the largest cities in the country.

AbusesToilets

Shai wrote: »

I wonder what correlation could be drawn from someone asking for stats and facts and then refusing to look at them? Anyway, I'll leave you to your crazy-uncle-we-dont-talk-about performance.

Good luck.

I did look at them though. Pointing out that they lack context isn't ignoring them, but given that said context would serve to undermine your position, it's no surprise you sidestep that.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Two people acting in leadership positions, leading rallies and protests. In two of the largest cities in the country.

By your logic the if I can post 2 examples of cops doing or defending racist things you'll accept it as proof that the police are racist?

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

By your logic the if I can post 2 examples of cops doing or defending racist things you'll accept it as proof that the police are racist?

Ah, but that wasn't the discussion, was it? You asked for examples of BLM advocating for violence, I have you two such from prominent members in New York and Chicago. You have the example in Seattle, with the CHAZ and the attendant violence found therein.

All outliers, existing on the fringes.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Ah, but that wasn't the discussion, was it? You asked for examples of BLM advocating for violence, I have you two such from prominent members in New York and Chicago. You have the example in Seattle, with the CHAZ and the attendant violence found therein.

All outliers, existing on the fringes.

I never asked for examples, you're trying to move the goalposts.

I clearly asked for proof that the wider BLM movement condones or promotes violence, which was your original claim.

Here is my post.

Foxtrol wrote: »

Now it is time for you to provide proof of your views that the wider BLM movement condones or promotes violence (no, outlier tweets or youtube clips of randomers is not proof related to thousands of organisers and millions of protesting).

AbusesToilets

Foxtrol wrote: »

I never asked for examples, you're trying to move the goalposts.

I clearly asked for proof that the wider BLM movement condones or promotes violence, which was your original claim.

Here is my post.

Which I provided "Examples" of. Well done

Dyr

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

https://theweek.com/articles/941014/political-violence-coming-from-direction-country-far-right



Congratulations for supporting racist terrorists. Why do some people hate America

Why would you only start counting terrorist deaths after 09/11/2001? Why not 08/11/2001?

Seems an odd date start counting on, is there some significance to it?

Gas stuff altogether