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Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

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    #542
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Very much so the bold, though it needs to be extended to throughout the entire 'law and order' and even further into the wider US society.

    I have never seen a protest for any of the non-bolded items. Once again you're trying to conflate the views of BLM organization (and even random members of the organization) with the wider BLM movement. This has been explained to you dozens of times at this point and you either refuse to listen or are unable to comprehend the concept that they aren't the same thing.

    Those are common held and expressed views among BLM supporters. You seem to constantly seek to divorce one from the other when a disquieting aspect of the movement is revealed.

    Hiw do you square your belief in systemic racist police brutality, with facts and statistics that show otherwise?


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    #543
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,171 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    'Let me be clear: we do not advocate violence in protests of any kind -- not by any protester and not by police. We do not advocate or condone destruction of property. We believe in the value of human lives.' Kailee Scales.


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    #544
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Water John wrote: »
    'Let me be clear: we do not advocate violence in protests of any kind -- not by any protester and not by police. We do not advocate or condone destruction of property. We believe in the value of human lives.' Kailee Scales.

    Words are wind. You'll forgive me if a rate the numerous video evidence of BLM members rioting and looting over a politician's words.

    Did she happen to say anything about how they were spending the money they're taking in, or denounce the racist rhetoric of many in the organisation?


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    #545
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,521 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Words are wind. You'll forgive me if a rate the numerous video evidence of BLM members rioting and looting over a politician's words.

    Did she happen to say anything about how they were spending the money they're taking in, or denounce the racist rhetoric of many in the organisation?

    Funny how video evidence is of some looting in some regions is enough for you to denounce the entire movement but video evidence isn't enough for you to denounce unacceptable police behaviour.


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    #546
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Funny how video evidence is of some looting in some regions is enough for you to denounce the entire movement but video evidence isn't enough for you to denounce unacceptable police behaviour.

    Ah but that's not the case tho is it? Feel free to show where I've supported unacceptable police actions. "Some looting" is a curious way to frame violence that's cost over $1bn and destroyed black businesses across the country.


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    #547
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,521 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Ah but that's not the case tho is it? Feel free to show where I've supported unacceptable police actions. "Some looting" is a curious way to frame violence that's cost over $1bn and destroyed black businesses across the country.

    11 minutes ago.
    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Immediately coming out denouncing a police shooting before actual details were known. Framing it as police brutality in the public eye, which serves to inflame sentiment ahead of the election.


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    #548
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Tell me how wrote: »
    11 minutes ago.

    What unacceptable police action was that then? The one where officers tried to peacefully restrain an individual, who resisted and fought back, disobeying directions from police pointed multiple guns at him to stop, before reaching into a vehicle. The same fellow who had broken into a woman's house, sexually assaulted her in bed with a child next to her.


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    #549
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,521 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    What unacceptable police action was that then? The one where officers tried to peacefully restrain an individual, who resisted and fought back, disobeying directions from police pointed multiple guns at him to stop, before reaching into a vehicle. The same fellow who had broken into a woman's house, sexually assaulted her in bed with a child next to her.

    Shooting an unarmed man 7 times in the back from a couple feet away is most definitely unacceptable behaviour in my view.


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    #550
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Those are common held and expressed views among BLM supporters. You seem to constantly seek to divorce one from the other when a disquieting aspect of the movement is revealed.

    Hiw do you square your belief in systemic racist police brutality, with facts and statistics that show otherwise?

    They only place those are common views is in your and right wing media's heads.

    Please provide evidence that there were a significant element of the millions that protested that were 'pro Marxist', 'anti-jewish', 'anti-white'?


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    #551
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Shooting an unarmed man 7 times in the back from a couple feet away is most definitely unacceptable behaviour in my view.

    Ah, but he did have a weapon, and the police couldn't have known what his intentions were, given his actions. He clearly had no regard for their directions, so entirely justified that they wouldn't trust his intentions at that point.


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    #552
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,521 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Ah, but he did have a weapon, and the police couldn't have known what his intentions were, given his actions. He clearly had no regard for their directions, so entirely justified that they wouldn't trust his intentions at that point.

    At no point was he holding a knife or any other weapon.

    The police could argue they never know what someones intentions are, Brad Parscale could have been shot for the same reason but instead he is in a care facility receiving treatment.


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    #553
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    They only place those are common views is in your and right wing media's heads.

    Please provide evidence that there were a significant element of the millions that protested that were 'pro Marxist', 'anti-jewish', 'anti-white'?

    What would you deem as significant? Read the responses on twitter to the Nick Cannon and DeSean Jackson statements for a snapshot of sentiment. Racism in the black community is as common and multifaceted as it is anywhere else. It just happens to be given a massive spotlight currently, under the guise of BLM.

    https://www.newsweek.com/anti-semitism-derail-black-lives-matter-movement-1519728

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/19/opinions/racism-anti-semitism-blm-nick-cannon-love/index.html


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    #554
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    What would you deem as significant? Read the responses on twitter to the Nick Cannon and DeSean Jackson statements for a snapshot of sentiment. Racism in the black community is as common and multifaceted as it is anywhere else. It just happens to be given a massive spotlight currently, under the guise of BLM.

    https://www.newsweek.com/anti-semitism-derail-black-lives-matter-movement-1519728

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/19/opinions/racism-anti-semitism-blm-nick-cannon-love/index.html

    So I state millions of people marched and you're again posting isolated incidents as evidence :rolleyes:


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    #555
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    So I state millions of people marched and you're again posting isolated incidents as evidence :rolleyes:

    What, does that criteria only work when you try to show evidence of police racism and brutality? I'd wager you'd find more examples in one Twitter thread of such racist sentiments than you would for the police being systematically racist.


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    #556
    moon2
    Registered Users Posts: 678 ✭✭✭moon2


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    What, does that criteria only work when you try to show evidence of police racism and brutality? I'd wager you'd find more examples in one Twitter thread of such racist sentiments than you would for the police being systematically racist.

    Unfortunately there's a lot more than isolated incidents to confirm systemic racism.

    I'm sure other posters can help hunt out official research in the topic if you have interest in being more informed about the area. This is a simple one to start with.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/us-systemic-racism-in-charts-graphs-data-2020-6


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    #557
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,521 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    What, does that criteria only work when you try to show evidence of police racism and brutality? I'd wager you'd find more examples in one Twitter thread of such racist sentiments than you would for the police being systematically racist.

    A Twitter thread isn't publicly funded with a responsibility of keeping people safe.


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    #558
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    moon2 wrote: »
    Unfortunately there's a lot more than isolated incidents to confirm systemic racism.

    I'm sure other posters can help hunt out official research in the topic if you have interest in being more informed about the area. This is a simple one to start with.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/us-systemic-racism-in-charts-graphs-data-2020-6

    There are definitely areas where discrimination persists, both today and as a legacy from the past. I'd posit that the harshest impact has been as a result of discrimination in loans/home ownership. many of the issues that face the black community stem from a lack of home ownership, given its role in generating wealth, and as a basis for funding public schools. The other area where discrimination is so greatly evident in legal outcomes. The dark triad of the for profit prison industry, with its linkage between nonviolent criminal offenses, for-profit prisons, and businesses which exploit the legal slavery found therein.

    I question the cause behind some of the other findings in that article. For example how many of them are due to external factors, or reflective of issues from within the community. The rates of school achievement, job holding, and wages reflective thereof. If the culture in these communities is one where people aren't encouraged to finish school, aren't encouraged to academic achievement: then it doesn't come as a surprise that there is such a lack of educational and economic achievement. The comparative achievement of Asian Americans stands as a counterpoint to the claim that there is systemic racism in these areas.


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    #559
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Tell me how wrote: »
    A Twitter thread isn't publicly funded with a responsibility of keeping people safe.

    Yea, and police are likely to shoot someone who fights them, disobeys them, and makes threatening motions i despite order to stop.


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    #560
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    What, does that criteria only work when you try to show evidence of police racism and brutality? I'd wager you'd find more examples in one Twitter thread of such racist sentiments than you would for the police being systematically racist.

    Once again, you're not helping your cause with setting the same expectation for cops as randomers commenting on threads on Twitter.

    Your expectations for the police is really in the gutter.


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    #561
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,521 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Yea, and police are likely to shoot someone who fights them, disobeys them, and makes threatening motions i despite order to stop.

    Hence the calls for change.
    In the United States, the use of deadly force by sworn law enforcement officers is lawful when the officer reasonably believes the subject poses a significant threat of serious bodily injury or death to themselves or others.

    An unarmed person leaving a scene is not such a threat.
    Don't misconstrue this as suggesting it is in any way acceptable, but 7 bullets in the back in an unreasonable response.


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    #562
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Hence the calls for change.



    An unarmed person leaving a scene is not such a threat.
    Don't misconstrue this as suggesting it is in any way acceptable, but 7 bullets in the back in an unreasonable response.

    He wasn't unarmed, as it turns out, and the police had no way of knowing what potential threat he could pose as he reached into the car. His previous actions had already shown him to be combatitive.

    This incident is a terrible one to choose as an example for high light poor policing. Are 7 bullets worse than 1? Blake dictated the outcome of that interaction, in the same way Brooks, and Brown and many others have. The shooting of Daniel Shaver is one I would hold as far more indicative of a failing of police practices.


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    #563
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,521 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    He wasn't unarmed, as it turns out, and the police had no way of knowing what potential threat he could pose as he reached into the car. His previous actions had already shown him to be combatitive.

    This incident is a terrible one to choose as an example for high light poor policing. Are 7 bullets worse than 1? Blake dictated the outcome of that interaction, in the same way Brooks, and Brown and many others have. The shooting of Daniel Shaver is one I would hold as far more indicative of a failing of police practices.

    He never touched the weapon which was in his car during the incident. That is unarmed.

    Yes, 7 bullets are worse than 1.


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    #564
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Tell me how wrote: »
    He never touched the weapon which was in his car during the incident. That is unarmed.

    Yes, 7 bullets are worse than 1.

    And what he doing when he got shot? Ignoring a command to stop, and reaching into his vehicle.


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    #565
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,171 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    So, you think a man, with two guns drawn on him, goes to his car to get a knife to take them on?
    One bullet might count as defence, but if I'm in court having shot someone seven times, I don't think self defence would cut it.


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    #566
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Water John wrote: »
    So, you think a man, with two guns drawn on him, goes to his car to get a knife to take them on?
    One bullet might count as defence, but if I'm in court having shot someone seven times, I don't think self defence would cut it.

    Uhh, yea I do. There's no shortage clips of cops getting attacked and killed in similar circumstances. Blake had previous history attacking police, and had pretty heinous claims against him.


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    #567
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Uhh, yea I do. There's no shortage clips of cops getting attacked and killed in similar circumstances. Blake had previous history attacking police, and had pretty heinous claims against him.

    And there is no shortage of clips of cops letting white people do way worse and not feel the need to put 7 bullets in their back


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    #568
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    And there is no shortage of clips of cops letting white people do way worse and not feel the need to put 7 bullets in their back

    As there is for cops doing the same with black folks, and plenty of incidents of white people being killed by cops. On and on. You've been through this argument again and again. There isn't racist bias in police shootings, despite your fervent wishes.


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    #569
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    As there is for cops doing the same with black folks, and plenty of incidents of white people being killed by cops. On and on. You've been through this argument again and again. There isn't racist bias in police shootings, despite your fervent wishes.

    There is racist bias in police instigating interactions, shootings, other brutality/murders (choking, drugging, falling down), arrests, sentencing, parole.

    Your 'evidence' regarding police shootings has so many holes in it. There is no accurate data base of police shootings as cops aren't required to give full data. Even researchers who came out claiming there was no racist bias ended up having to withdraw their work admitting that it was so flawed.

    https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-06-17/police-shootings-data

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/07/15/police-shooting-study-retracted/


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    #570
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    There is racist bias in police instigating interactions, shootings, other brutality/murders (choking, drugging, falling down), arrests, sentencing, parole.

    Your 'evidence' regarding police shootings has so many holes in it. There is no accurate data base of police shootings as cops aren't required to give full data. Even researchers who came out claiming there was no racist bias ended up having to withdraw their work admitting that it was so flawed.

    https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-06-17/police-shootings-data

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/07/15/police-shooting-study-retracted/

    Please, demonstrate the bias then. With facts and statistics to back up your claims.

    https://samharris.org/can-pull-back-brink/

    A pretty solid examination of said issue, which argues against the idea of racial bias in police shootings


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    #571
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Please, demonstrate the bias then. With facts and statistics to back up your claims.

    So you're going to expect me to provide a higher standard of evidence than your claims about BLM protesters? You won't be accepting youtube speeches and tweets of randomers as evidence? :rolleyes:


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