How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

Bananaleaf

Mrsmum wrote: »

Yeah but he is telling us parents that there are risks so is it not on us ?

Yeah I really don't know. I'm trying to think about it in the context of other sectors.

Is it like going into a restaurant, ordering chicken and being told it might not be cooked and you may get sick?

Or is it more like going into a gym and signing a waiver to say that you understand there is a certain amount of risk involved in using equipment?

Probably is more like the second one. But even in that example, I'd imagine there are still folk who would chance their arm (or genuinely feel that they have a case) with a claim

Peter Flynt

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

LOL

That crock of sh!te.

Anyway i'm in no way a legal eagle but what would the threshold have to be to sue, sniffles? Hospitilisation? Long term affects? Future long term respitory illness? Death?

Don't worry.

I didn't think you were a legal eagle.

gabeeg

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

LOL

That crock of sh!te.

Anyway i'm in no way a legal eagle but what would the threshold have to be to sue, sniffles? Hospitilisation? Long term affects? Future long term respitory illness? Death?

Eh... The "threshold" isn't all that relevant.

It would be a case of falling to provide adequate safety measures for kids/staff

Stevieluvsye

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Don't worry.

I didn't think you were a legal eagle.

Touché

Stateofyou

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Above my pay grade to be the one imparting that sort of news. The guidelines allow what I'm planning on doing, instead of individual pods you just consider the class bubble like a big pod. The document really is a steaming pile of cow dung.

Reality is that Leo told the nation yesterday that every child, in every pod, in every bubble, in every school and on all school transport are at risk.

You can't be serious. So you're just going to tell yourself that and ignore it as you said? Have you told the people who are at the right "pay grade" that you think parents should be notified so something can be done about it and at least do your best in that regard? People are going to be seriously impacted by this, some worse than others. I wouldn't want that on my conscious looking back years from now wishing I had spoken up.

What will most likely happen is that 1. parents are going to find out about it at the last minute and not send their kids in (we will be in this camp) or 2. people will trust that these are the right actions and gov't/schools have their kids and families best interest in mind and massive outbreaks and therefore harm is going to happen. Many parent's will be faced with either one of them losing a job/income and keeping their children safe at home or going into work and sending their kids to school against their better judgement. That is a horrible reality to be faced with.

What Leo said was a massive mistake and ridiculous.
"It's almost inevitable that if schools open that there will be clusters in some schools, does that mean that that school did something wrong or the principal is somehow negligent? Probably not.

"So I just think we need to, raise the understanding among people that this is a highly infectious virus and everyone doing the right thing still means that some people may get the virus or there may be clusters in different places."

What he's doing there is trying to spin what he knows to be the inevitable to try and lessen the accountability. Of course it's not on the schools, who does he take us for? Disease experts here are ringing the bell now that a phased approach needs to happen and it currently isn't. Professor Anthony Staines is an expert in public health and health systems at Dublin City University said: “There is also emerging evidence that even primary-school children can spread the disease. That’s still very uncertain, but it may be the case,”

"The European countries that reopened schools that I am familiar with have kept numbers of students way down and limited contact significantly. As far as I can see, we are not really planning to do that."

There is enough evidence from around the world that social distancing, hand hygeine and mask wearing/perspex shields, and other measures are what needs to happen to prevent as many negative outcomes as possible.

No one is under the illusion that we can or should aim for absolutely no cases. But when the lessons are there, the studies, our own guidelines that we can't follow... we're not even trying to do our best. We need more time to implement the money into redesigning schools and learning. We need more time to develop and implement a national remote learning scheme. Someone a few posts back (jrosen I think) mused if it was even possible. Yes, it is. As I said much earlier on the thread my kids school back in the US (still on mailing list so privy to info) has implemented a 3-option in school, blended, or full remote scheme. Mexico has done it more recently in the news. Other countries have done this. It was asked if there is even money/time/desire to do it. Only missing the latter ingredient imo.

Blondini

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you read the public health advice on schools?

From HSE guidance:

There's a famous alumni of this thread whose modus operandi was to repeatedly copy and paste aspirational guidelines which have no basis in reality? It didn't end well.

Are you assuming the mantle now? Don't waste your time.

lulublue22

lulublue22 wrote: »

Have you ever or do you currently work in a school setting ? These guidelines are perfectly fine in an abstract aspirational way. Unfortunately difficulties arise when they are implemented in the real world. The physical constraints of school buildings make them irrelevant in many cases. It’s quite difficult to manage to SD 30 children in a small space. The first 4 years covers children from JI to 2nd what about those from 3rd to 6th ? And yes there will be schools who will be able to implement the guidelines but they will be in a minority.

I was replying to a post stating we were not requiring schools to follow public health guidance on social distancing in schools. I then showed that the actual public health guides actually state - do what you can in schools within the limitation of your setting. Which is what schools are being asked to do

wirelessdude01

Stateofyou wrote: »

You can't be serious. So you're just going to tell yourself that and ignore it as you said? Have you told the people who are at the right "pay grade" that you think parents should be notified so something can be done about it and at least do your best in that regard? People are going to be seriously impacted by this, some worse than others. I wouldn't want that on my conscious looking back years from now wishing I had spoken up.

Not ignoring anything. Just implementing the guidelines that are great department have given us and yes my principal is aware of the issues. They have worked in our school for nearly 30 years so know the size limitations of the various rooms.

As I said it isn't my job to be disseminating the school plan out to parents. That is the job of school management. We have been asked by our principal to not give any information to any parents/guardians that we might meet during out daily lives.

Stateofyou

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Not ignoring anything. Just implementing the guidelines that are great department have given us and yes my principal is aware of the issues. They have worked in our school for nearly 30 years so know the size limitations of the various rooms.

As I said it isn't my job to be disseminating the school plan out to parents. That is the job of school management. We have been asked by our principal to not give any information to any parents/guardians that we might meet during out daily lives.

WHAT?! Why is this.

If you haven't voiced your concerns to the management in your school and recommended parents are informed then yes, I believe that is the definition of sticking your head in the sand and ignoring. You may not be able to disseminate information but you can still speak up to your superiors. Sometimes people need to be pressured to do the right thing.

Bananaleaf

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

As I said it isn't my job to be disseminating the school plan out to parents. That is the job of school management. We have been asked by our principal to not give any information to any parents/guardians that we might meet during out daily lives.

Exactly. We are always told the same.

It is literally above your pay grade unless you are the post holder who has been given the job.

One person responsible for giving the information out. No different to any other organisation having a spokesperson. That way, everyone hears the same message in the same way at the same and there is less cause for confusion. It also means that anyone who does have a question knows exactly who to approach about it

wirelessdude01

Stateofyou wrote: »

WHAT?! Why is this.

If you haven't voiced your concerns to the management in your school and recommended parents are informed then yes, I believe that is the definition of sticking your head in the sand and ignoring. You may not be able to disseminate information but you can still speak up to your superiors. Sometimes people need to be pressured to do the right thing.

But you don't realise we are following the guidelines. I might not agree with them, you might not agree with with them but what I plan to do is documented in them as a suggestion. I disagree with it, but hey I'm just a lowly public servant.

Why aren't we allowed to tell parents? Well for one the principal is my boss and I ain't standing on their toes in relation to this. Secondly there needs to be a consistent message going out. 12 different teachers would have 12 slightly different versions of the one plan out there and that would be when issues occur. Information going out into the parental body needs to be consistent.

Stateofyou

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Exactly. We are always told the same.

It is literally above your pay grade unless you are the post holder who has been given the job.

One person responsible for giving the information out. No different to any other organisation having a spokesperson. That way, everyone hears the same message in the same way at the same and there is less cause for confusion. It also means that anyone who does have a question knows exactly who to approach about it

This isn't about having an accurate and uniform, single source of information. This is about parents having the right to be informed that many of our schools are unable to meet the published guidelines given to schools. Parents need and are entitled to information so we can make decisions for our children and families and if need be - start kicking up a fuss to the media and gov't.

Not being in your "pay grade" to be the single source doesn't absolve anyone of responsibility to act here. Those in the know in these schools absolutely need to be speaking up to their superiors to urge them to communicate with parents now. That's already been voiced here, on this thread, by school professionals. Saying that it's the parents and media who need to be involved now that it's a non-starter coming from the schools and unions, who have apparently already tried. So- who is going to tell the parents.

Stateofyou

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

But you don't realise we are following the guidelines. I might not agree with them, you might not agree with with them but what I plan to do is documented in them as a suggestion. I disagree with it, but hey I'm just a lowly public servant.

Why aren't we allowed to tell parents? Well for one the principal is my boss and I ain't standing on their toes in relation to this. Secondly there needs to be a consistent message going out. 12 different teachers would have 12 slightly different versions of the one plan out there and that would be when issues occur. Information going out into the parental body needs to be consistent.

No, haven't you and other teachers here said the social distancing guidelines in schools can't be implemented? That it's all a farce? That there aren't enough sub's as per guidelines, no app in place to purchase/implement structural changes and PPE as per guidelines. Some have said the principles are sitting on their hands and/or on holiday, or seriously distressed by the inability to appropriately implement guidelines as outlined. I have read this thread all the way from the beginning and all that is there....

wirelessdude01

Stateofyou wrote: »

This is about parents having the right to be informed that many of our schools are unable to meet the published guidelines given to schools.

Well in our school we will be meeting the guidelines, some will have individual pods. I just can't facilitate that so the class will be one massive 'pod'.

Stevieluvsye

Scotland might give us some kind of indicator, think they are back today

wirelessdude01

Stateofyou wrote: »

No, haven't you and other teachers here said the social distancing guidelines in schools can't be implemented? ..

Inform yourself by reading the document. SD of 1m can be ignored where pods can be facilitated with 1m SD between them. This is all in the document.

I 100% agree with you. The whole thing is a farce. Think the phrase 'if/where possible' is used over 50 times in the document for primary/special schools. It is the get out of jail card for the department.

Bananaleaf

Stateofyou wrote: »

This isn't about having an accurate and uniform, single source of information. This is about parents having the right to be informed that many of our schools are unable to meet the published guidelines given to schools. Parents need and are entitled to information so we can make decisions for our children and families and if need be - start kicking up a fuss to the media and gov't.

Not being in your "pay grade" to be the single source doesn't absolve anyone of responsibility to act here. Those in the know in these schools absolutely need to be speaking up to their superiors to urge them to communicate with parents now. That's already been voiced here, on this thread, by school professionals. Saying that it's the parents and media who need to be involved now that it's a non-starter coming from the schools and unions, who have apparently already tried. So- who is going to tell the parents.

Oh no, hang on. I think we are talking about two different things here.

Myself and wirelessdude01 are talking about school-specifics. So, we are saying that within our individual schools we would have one staff member or one team of members (year heads for example) reporting to parents on the school policy, based upon the roadmap. In this case there absolutely would be a need for a single, uniform and accurate source of information.

I think you are referring to the wider issue of the roadmap being unfit for purpose.

In my own personal circle of colleagues and friends, between us we have done the following:
Written to both current and former ministers for education
Emailed principals
Tried (in vain) to phone dept of Education so wrote to them instead
Spoken on radio
Written to the Irish Times
Tweeted
Shared concerns via social media with parent groups.
Emailed the TUI

One of us got a letter printed in the Irish times and one of us was given time on Newstalk for a whole of 3mins. Got a reply from TUI to say that our email had been received and an email from principals saying that our concerns were noted. That has been the extent of their engagement with us.

Honest question - what else do you expect us to do? The parents who want to be informed already know the score. The ones who don't just think we don't want to go back to work and are finding unnecessary fault in the plan

Nobody is saying that parents and media need to get involved now. We have been saying it for weeks.

Bananaleaf

Stateofyou wrote: »

No, haven't you and other teachers here said the social distancing guidelines in schools can't be implemented? That it's all a farce? That there aren't enough sub's as per guidelines, no app in place to purchase/implement structural changes and PPE as per guidelines. Some have said the principles are sitting on their hands and/or on holiday, or seriously distressed by the inability to appropriately implement guidelines as outlined. I have read this thread all the way from the beginning and all that is there....

Yeah they cant be implemented. But so long as the kids wear masks the social distancing doesn't matter. According to the guidelines. Which is b0ll0x. But, so long as the masks are worn we're "following guidelines"

Stateofyou

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I've been in twice to try and arrange pods that are 1m apart and contain no more than 6 children. I've failed. Just going to have to ignore the 1m between pods or just have two of the pods containing 8.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Well in our school we will be meeting the guidelines, some will have individual pods. I just can't facilitate that so the class will be one massive 'pod'.

Dude, what? What you actually said a few pages back was that you failed to meet the guidelines and you're just going to have to ignore them. I'm confused.

wirelessdude01

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Yeah they cant be implemented. But so long as the kids wear masks the social distancing doesn't matter. According to the guidelines. Which is b0ll0x. But, so long as the masks are worn we're "following guidelines"

Or you pretend that magically renaming your class as a 'bubble' or groups within a class as 'pods' means that the department has a plan. The guidelines are deliberately ambiguous because it is a get schools open approach and we'll let the schools firefight when the sh!t hits the fan.

wirelessdude01

Stateofyou wrote: »

Dude, what? What you actually said a few pages back was that you failed to meet the guidelines and you're just going to have to ignore them. I'm confused.

Ignore the pods thing. Do keep up.

Bananaleaf

Stateofyou wrote: »

Dude, what? What you actually said a few pages back was that you failed to meet the guidelines and you're just going to have to ignore them. I'm confused.

Seriously. You need to read the guidelines. It would be easier.

They actually say in the guidelines that you have to have 1m distance between kids but sure if you can't you can't so wear masks then.

I'm paraphrasing but that is basically it. I'm on mobile at moment but I'm actually going to switch on my PC to link you to roadmap and where it says this just so you can see for yourself

Bananaleaf

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Or you pretend that magically renaming your class as a 'bubble' or groups within a class as 'pods' means that the department has a plan. The guidelines are deliberately ambiguous because it is a get schools open approach and we'll let the schools firefight when the sh!t hits the fan.

See this is the thing about Coronavirus. His fatal flaw is that he cannot infect someone after 14mins in their company, he has to wait the full 15. And he is also only allowed to attack random groups of people, not ones in pods or bubbles. :pac:

Peter Flynt

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Seriously. You need to read the guidelines. It would be easier.

They actually say in the guidelines that you have to have 1m distance between kids but sure if you can't you can't so wear masks then.

I'm paraphrasing but that is basically it. I'm on mobile at moment but I'm actually going to switch on my PC to link you to roadmap and where it says this just so you can see for yourself

Pods are not possible in second levels schools as the classes change 40 mins

Stateofyou

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Oh no, hang on. I think we are talking about two different things here.

Myself and wirelessdude01 are talking about school-specifics. So, we are saying that within our individual schools we would have one staff member or one team of members (year heads for example) reporting to parents on the school policy, based upon the roadmap. In this case there absolutely would be a need for a single, uniform and accurate source of information.

I think you are referring to the wider issue of the roadmap being unfit for purpose.

In my own personal circle of colleagues and friends, between us we have done the following:
Written to both current and former ministers for education
Emailed principals
Tried (in vain) to phone dept of Education so wrote to them instead
Spoken on radio
Written to the Irish Times
Tweeted
Shared concerns via social media with parent groups.
Emailed the TUI

One of us got a letter printed in the Irish times and one of us was given time on Newstalk for a whole of 3mins. Got a reply from TUI to say that our email had been received and an email from principals saying that our concerns were noted. That has been the extent of their engagement with us.

Honest question - what else do you expect us to do? The parents who want to be informed already know the score. The ones who don't just think we don't want to go back to work and are finding unnecessary fault in the plan

Nobody is saying that parents and media need to get involved now. We have been saying it for weeks.

I hear you, and that's some fantastic work you and others have done to speak up. What I'm specifically concerned about is that there is a lack of information directly to the parents. On this thread, teaching professionals and others have said that there is a lack of news on this (news sources won't touch it, I believe were the exact words by one).
There may be bits in the news about it. Some parents will have seen or heard this, and others haven't. Most are probably waiting to hear from their *specific* schools what is being done. The overwhelming response here is that no one has heard very much if anything at all.
You asked the question what else I expect to be done. Well as per the school professionals on this page have highlighted the need for, I expect parents to be informed *directly* by their school what isn't workable, what the challenges are and face it together from there.
You may have been saying for weeks now that parents and media need to be involved, but again I will ask, who is going to tell the parents so we can act.

wirelessdude01

Bananaleaf wrote: »

See this is the thing about Coronavirus. His fatal flaw is that he cannot infect someone after 14mins in their company, he has to wait the full 15. And he is also only allowed to attack random groups of people, not ones in pods or bubbles. :pac:

Or that one €9 meal within a group creates a protective bubble around that group on the sess in a pub!!

average_runner

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Seriously. You need to read the guidelines. It would be easier.

They actually say in the guidelines that you have to have 1m distance between kids but sure if you can't you can't so wear masks then.

I'm paraphrasing but that is basically it. I'm on mobile at moment but I'm actually going to switch on my PC to link you to roadmap and where it says this just so you can see for yourself

Scotland are doing the same thing so hopefully they show us the way/mistakes before the kids are back here.


Pods in classes in primary school is a silly idea, cause most of the kids in that class will be in sports together, playing with each other etc, so for primary school, one class should be a pod.

Stateofyou

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Seriously. You need to read the guidelines. It would be easier.

They actually say in the guidelines that you have to have 1m distance between kids but sure if you can't you can't so wear masks then.

I'm paraphrasing but that is basically it. I'm on mobile at moment but I'm actually going to switch on my PC to link you to roadmap and where it says this just so you can see for yourself

I have actually read them many times and downloaded them and it remains a permanently open doc on my laptop, but thanks. Not sure what reason you have to comment as such.

jrosen

Schools need to reach out to parents to let them know what their school is doing, what they can do within the guidelines. Some schools can adhere better than others simply down to size/school building etc.

Then parents can make a decision on what they want to do, send their kids back or not. The guidelines have been published and unless parents are sticking their head under a rock they cant for one second have thought their kids were covid safe in schools. Sure we are not covid safe anywhere.

Each school can only do so much.

mirrorwall14

Stateofyou wrote: »

Dude, what? What you actually said a few pages back was that you failed to meet the guidelines and you're just going to have to ignore them. I'm confused.

The guidelines have a LOT of ‘where possible’ and caveats so technically schools will be implementing the guidelines