How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

drunkmonkey

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

He says that the principal would “probably not “ negligent when an outbreak occurs .

What does he mean by that, they might not be liable if a parent or teacher takes a civil case against them, someone will be on the hook for when it happens.

jrosen

Its inevitable we have cases in schools. Im surprised anyone thought we wouldnt, Im even more surprised anyone thought the aim was to have no cases in schools. Its going to be impossible to STOP the spread of covid within schools.

There was never going to be SD in schools, it was never possible for the vast majority of schools with the class room sizes and student numbers. Not to mention we dont have any system across the board in Irish schools that allows for the curriculum to be taught on line. So the idea that kids would be half in and half out would have required an entire shift in how we teach and what we teach.
Was there money/time or even a desire to do this? I doubt it.

Each and every school can only do so much, if you decide to send your child back to school you do so accepting there is a risk. If they pick up covid, it doesnt mean the school was negligible. A child who was Asymptomatic could have passed it on.

Bananaleaf

abacus120 wrote: »

My daughters secondary school sent an e-mail today outlining the new rules etc.

They will provide visors for all children or they can wear there own masks as cant keep 2m apart.
Must stay in their classes for lunch except senior students can leave the school, (which isnt easy for 7 hours a day in the one room).
No access to the dining area.
Lockers only for 6th years.
Books must be kept under there desks.
Single desks and chairs for everyone.
Students will need to sanitize there chairs and tables every few hours.
Also hands need to be sanitized every few hours.
All students will be in for the usual school hours from Monday the 7th of September all arriving at the same time and finishing at the same time.
No after school activities, except sports.

Any teachers here know it their schools are going to be doing this? Presumably this will need to be supervised. Not sure we would have the s&s hours to cover this and if working the usual school hours on top of it, where are all these hours going to come from?

Possibly only a goer in the smaller schools

lulublue22

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Listened to Leo speaking , he is already setting schools up to take the fall . He claims all public health advice is being followed . It’s not - no social distancing in primary up to 2nd , no chance of keeping 2 m apart across all levels .

He says that the principal would “probably not “ negligent when an outbreak occurs .

I really don’t envy principals /SMT - this Summer must have been a nightmare. Can you imagine listening to the above after spending copious amounts of time trying to implement guidelines that are so pie in the sky as to render them farcical.

The_Brood

The govt are complete and utter trolls. "The Acting Chief Medical Officer has said the focus as a society must be on three national priorities - protecting public health and the most vulnerable, the resumption of non-Covid health services and the reopening of schools."

So both protecting people from the virus and reopening the main way to increase the virus rate in the country are their top priorities? "We need to make sure we put out the fires, and at the same time make sure we are starting as many fires as possible."

Absolutely complete nonsense, just taking the piss out of the people. As ignorant as the virus conspiracy theorists are, I don't know whose more obnoxious by this point.

Mrsmum

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Any teachers here know it their schools are going to be doing this? Presumably this will need to be supervised. Not sure we would have the s&s hours to cover this and if working the usual school hours on top of it, where are all these hours going to come from?

Possibly only a goer in the smaller schools

Our secondary school have asked all parents if their children live close enough to go home for lunch, duration one hour and if we are happy for them to do so.

byhookorbycrook

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Listened to Leo speaking , he is already setting schools up to take the fall . He claims all public health advice is being followed . It’s not - no social distancing in primary up to 2nd , no chance of keeping 2 m apart across all levels .

He says that the principal would “probably not “ negligent when an outbreak occurs .

Have you read the public health advice on schools?

From HSE guidance:

Primary Level
• A distance of 1 metre should be maintained between desks or between individual pupils. It is recognized
that younger children are unlikely to maintain physical distancing indoors. Therefore, achieving this
recommendation in the first 4 years of primary school, is not a prerequisite to reopening a primary
school for all pupils.
• Where possible, work-stations should be allocated consistently to the same staff and children rather
than having spaces that are shared.
• The risk of spread of infection may be reduced by structuring pupils and their teachers into Class Bubbles
(i.e. a class grouping which stays apart from other classes as much as possible) and discrete groups or
‘Pods’ within those class bubbles, to the extent that this is practical.
• If a class is divided into Pods, there should be at least [1m distance] between individual Pods within the
Class Bubble and between individuals in the pod, whenever possible.
• Generally speaking the objective is to limit contact and sharing of common facilities between people in
different Class Bubbles (and Pods within those Class Bubbles) as much as possible, rather than to avoid
all contact between Pods, as the latter will not always be possible.
• The aim of the system within the school, is that each class grouping mix only with their own class from
arrival at school in the morning until departure at the end of the school day. The Pods within those Class
Bubbles is an additional measure, to limit the extent of close contact within the Class Bubble.
• Pod sizes should be kept as small as is likely to be reasonably practical in the specific classroom context.
• To the greatest extent possible, pupils and teaching staff should consistently be in the same Class
Bubbles although this will not be possible at all times.
• Different Class Bubbles should where possible have separate breaks and meal times or separate areas at
break or meal times [or this could be different class years i.e. 2nd class, 3rd class etc.].
• Sharing educational material between Pods should be avoided/minimised where possible.
• Staff members who move from class bubble to class bubble should be limited as much as possible
Post Primary level
• Physical distancing of 2 metres where possible or at least 1 metre should be maintained between desks
or between individual students or staff. In future planning, consider moving to individual desks and
chairs for students.
• As far as possible students would remain in the classroom and teachers would move between rooms.
GUIDANCE Reopening of schools and educational facilities V1.0
15
• All children would be assigned to a main class cohort, which would remain in the classroom for most
subjects with teachers moving between rooms.
• Where possible double classes would be planned to minimise movement during the day.
• Where students have to move to an elective subject they would move quickly into the new class and
would be seated with members of their class cohort, observing as much physical distancing as possible.
• Hand washing and/or sanitising would be required when moving between classes by both teacher and
students.
• Physical distancing between the teacher and the class would be observed.
• Where movement of class groups between rooms is required it should be planned to minimise
interaction with other class groups (for example coordination of movements at staggered time

lulublue22

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you read the public health advice on schools?

From HSE guidance:

Have you ever or do you currently work in a school setting ? These guidelines are perfectly fine in an abstract aspirational way. Unfortunately difficulties arise when they are implemented in the real world. The physical constraints of school buildings make them irrelevant in many cases. It’s quite difficult to manage to SD 30 children in a small space. The first 4 years covers children from JI to 2nd what about those from 3rd to 6th ? And yes there will be schools who will be able to implement the guidelines but they will be in a minority.

Peter Flynt

Varadkar's comments will now guarantee legal cases after people get infected in schools.

Jinglejangle69

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Varadkar's comments will now guarantee legal cases after people get infected in schools.

So can anyone who gets infected going forward due the government?

Peter Flynt

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

So can anyone who gets infected going forward due the government?

I'm no legal expert.
However if a government minister guarantees infections in schools and people then get infected then I'd be highly surprised if there is no case for negligence.

Drumpot

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I'm no legal expert.
However if a government minister guarantees infections in schools and people then get infected then I'd be highly surprised if there is no case for negligence.

I wonder if parents have the right to keep children out of school and they make that clear, does saying “they might get infected” sort of protect them.

Schools cannot be fully safe, they just can’t unless they at least half classes which they aren’t doing. I really am not filled with confidence the way the dept of educational and government are handling this.

On one hand I’m actually happy that Leo is not fully sugar coating schools re-opening. On the other I’m not overly convinced by the unclear measures being implemented in schools. Less than 3 weeks to go and haven’t a clue what schools are doing for our children.

Stevieluvsye

No chance of anyone getting sued

Stateofyou

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I've been in twice to try and arrange pods that are 1m apart and contain no more than 6 children. I've failed. Just going to have to ignore the 1m between pods or just have two of the pods containing 8.

Have you or your school notified the parents that guidelines can't be followed so they know their children will be at risk? So they can make alternative plans -perhaps homeschooling - or at least signal to them it's time to organise and speak up now and loudly?

Mrsmum

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I'm no legal expert.
However if a government minister guarantees infections in schools and people then get infected then I'd be highly surprised if there is no case for negligence.

Would it not be more logical that people would sue if he guaranteed safety. The fact that he is saying the opposite, that for sure and certain there will be cases, which everyone knows anyway, well then that's on the parents if they send them to school having been told the unvarnished truth.

Bananaleaf

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

No chance of anyone getting sued

I'm not disagreeing with you but can you explain why? Genuinely curious

Bananaleaf

Mrsmum wrote: »

Would it not be more logical that people would sue if he guaranteed safety. The fact that he is saying the opposite, that for sure and certain there will be cases, which everyone knows anyway, well then that's on the parents if they send them to school having been told the unvarnished truth.

Yeah but does it not also imply an element of being aware of the associated risks? I don't think you can claim you were acting 'in good faith' after saying the likes of what he said.

I suppose it will come down to the interpretstion of the guidelines and whether they show that a reasonable effort was made to ensure safety. Being vague as they are will possibly go in their favour in a legal context.

Which might be where an individual school's policy is reverted to.......

Something to think about

Peter Flynt

Mrsmum wrote: »

Would it not be more logical that people would sue if he guaranteed safety. The fact that he is saying the opposite, that for sure and certain there will be cases, which everyone knows anyway, well then that's on the parents if they send them to school having been told the unvarnished truth.

Safety cannot be guaranteed.

However declaring that you know people will get sick as a result of actions supported by Varadkar is an entirely separate thing altogether.

The irony is that it may be the school's BoM who are the legal entity to be sued and not the state so Varadkar has landed a lot of schools in it.

Stevieluvsye

Bananaleaf wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with you but can you explain why? Genuinely curious

Government have set out the guidelines on safety measures. Anyway, let's say Leo said it's certain kids are going to get the flu this year, and a child had underlying conditions and something happened, do you think the parents could sue?

wirelessdude01

Stateofyou wrote: »

Have you or your school notified the parents that guidelines can't be followed so they know their children will be at risk? So they can make alternative plans -perhaps homeschooling - or at least signal to them it's time to organise and speak up now and loudly?

Above my pay grade to be the one imparting that sort of news. The guidelines allow what I'm planning on doing, instead of individual pods you just consider the class bubble like a big pod. The document really is a steaming pile of cow dung.

Reality is that Leo told the nation yesterday that every child, in every pod, in every bubble, in every school and on all school transport are at risk.

Mrsmum

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Yeah but does it not also imply an element of being aware of the associated risks? I don't think you can claim you were acting 'in good faith' after saying the likes of what he said.

I suppose it will come down to the interpretstion of the guidelines and whether they show that a reasonable effort was made to ensure safety. Being vague as they are will possibly go in their favour in a legal context.

Which might be where an individual school's policy is reverted to.......

Something to think about

Yeah but he is telling us parents that there are risks so is it not on us ?

Mrsmum

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Safety cannot be guaranteed.

However declaring that you know people will get sick as a result of actions supported by Varadkar is an entirely separate thing altogether.

The irony is that it may be the school's BoM who are the legal entity to be sued and not the state so Varadkar has landed a lot of schools in it.

I don't think he is admitting "as a result of" measures but in spite of best practice measures.

wirelessdude01

Mrsmum wrote: »

Yeah but he is telling us parents that there are risks so is it not on us ?

Leo's words were carefully chosen, that you can be sure of.

Jinglejangle69

Sure some people going to shops or work could be guaranteed they could get the virus.

Are they going to sue the government?

Peter Flynt

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

Government have set out the guidelines on safety measures. Anyway, let's say Leo said it's certain kids are going to get the flu this year, and a child had underlying conditions and something happened, do you think the parents could sue?

Flu is not equal to CoronaVirus.

The issue is an individual taking action knowing that it will cause harm.
If a coronavirus cluster occurs within a school then it can be established than an individual caught it there as a result of lower social distancing requirements.

Stevieluvsye

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Flu is not equal to CoronaVirus.

The issue is an individual taking action knowing that it will cause harm.
If a coronavirus cluster occurs within a school then it can be established than an individual caught it there as a result of lower social distancing requirements.

Hoe can you prove it was caught in school? Regardless, no chance of anyone getting sued

Peter Flynt

Mrsmum wrote: »

I don't think he is admitting "as a result of" measures but in spite of best practice measures.

Along with face masks social distancing is vital.

Thing is you cannot have social distancing in most schools. This is due to lack of investment from the state over decades. This doesn't stop social distancing of 1 m being a part of the Roadmap to Fully Reopening Schools.

In the end politicians are opening schools. Not principals.
And if a governing TD is knowingly guaranteeing infection (or clusters) then it may be up to a court of law to determine levels of culpability.

You wouldn't get on a plane with the airline CEO guaranteeing infection in the cabin. . . . and there would be little legal manoeuvre if people do get infected.

As has already been stated . . . Alternative view can be taken with parents. If students get infected then Leo's warning could be invoked.
Same cannot be said for teachers who must turn up for work.

Bananaleaf

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

Government have set out the guidelines on safety measures. Anyway, let's say Leo said it's certain kids are going to get the flu this year, and a child had underlying conditions and something happened, do you think the parents could sue?

Years ago I would have said no, but it's just not that simple anymore methinks.

I know it isn't the exact same scenario, but if you'd asked me before if this would ever happen: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/school-ordered-to-pay-3-500-to-student-with-nut-allergy-over-school-trip-1.4095348%3fmode=amp I'd have said no too, but it did.

So, to be perfectly honest, I just don't know anymore. I think with the right legal representation you can make anything happen.


Could they be successful, maybe not? Does that mean they won't try? No way.

Peter Flynt

Stevieluvsye wrote: »

Hoe can you prove it was caught in school? Regardless, no chance of anyone getting sued

By contact tracing.

Stevieluvsye

Peter Flynt wrote: »

By contact tracing.

LOL

That crock of sh!te.

Anyway i'm in no way a legal eagle but what would the threshold have to be to sue, sniffles? Hospitilisation? Long term affects? Future long term respitory illness? Death?