Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

completedit

It would take a lot of bravery to just come out and say now that we have assessed the risk and have decided Covid does not represent a major threat to public health. For one, it would probably cause the price of the vaccine contracts to plummet which is a bit conspiracy theorist but actually makes sense.

beggars_bush

CruelSummer wrote: »

Just curious...do you give any credibility to the fact that Spanish hospitals are empty...much like our own & many others. The Spanish doctor on the video is speaking facts, the journalist asking him the questions is trying to drum up fear & keep people scared of Covid.
I think the reality is quite different, the Covid wave has come and gone. Unfortunately our nursing homes and other settings with vulnerable people got some exposure to the virus.
It will continue to circulate with less severe impacts. I’m still waiting to see facts as to why we’re being threatened with a second lockdown...

We never properly got a first wave

Gerry Hatrick

Penfailed wrote: »

Covid Conspiracy thread is that way >>>

Poster must be recovering from the few digs they got at the march this weekend :pac:

i_surge

completedit wrote: »

It would take a lot of bravery to just come out and say now that we have assessed the risk and have decided Covid does not represent a major threat to public health. For one, it would probably cause the price of the vaccine contracts to plummet which is a bit conspiracy theorist but actually makes sense.

That risk assessment wouldn't be worth the paper it is written on. Go look at the curve of new cases in France if you want to see how wrong you are.

Worldometer then france, it will take you 30 seconds.

Still nobody answered my question about economic recovery.

MadYaker

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Where did I say I believed it without question? I commented that it would appear to be reflective of the current/ongoing situation. Happy for you to prove otherwise.

Maybe if you and others stopped with the hysteria and playing the man rather than the ball, it might be worth having an actual discussion on the point. This isn't twitter.. Take your confrontational "us vs them" stuff there.

What are you so invested in and fearful of that you refuse to accept that the deaths and serious cases in this country are actually very low for a pandemic 6 months later. This despite the country being largely open for the last 2 months now. Are you that swayed by the media coverage that you can't see what's around you?

Zero new deaths today by the way.

And we're back to fear again :P why are so determined to convince yourself that everyone else is scared? That's called projection. I'm not scared because I understand what is happening and I wouldn't say deaths here are that low, we don't even compare favourably to other european countries. The only hysteria I see in this thread is from you and others constantly predicting economic doom because the pubs are closed. Economic hardship is unavoidable no matter what. I don't use twitter because I'm not a fcuking moron and I'm perfectly capable of reading media reports and making my own mind up about what is happening.

With cases continuing to rise all over the world I'm not sure how you could even begin to think that it is somehow on the wane. Our lives will be sh!t until enough of us are vaccinated so we may as well just get used to it.

_Kaiser_

MadYaker wrote: »

And we're back to fear again :P why are so determined to convince yourself that everyone else is scared? That's called projection. I'm not scared because I understand what is happening and I wouldn't say deaths here are that low, we don't even compare favourably to other european countries. The only hysteria I see in this thread is from you and others constantly predicting economic doom because the pubs are closed. Economic hardship is unavoidable no matter what. I don't use twitter because I'm not a fcuking moron and I'm perfectly capable of reading media reports and making my own mind up about what is happening.

With cases continuing to rise all over the world I'm not sure how you could even begin to think that it is somehow on the wane. Our lives will be sh!t until enough of us are vaccinated so we may as well just get used to it.

So your entire argument is based around new cases? You refuse to acknowledge that the overwhelming majority of those cases will be just fine or may not have realised they even had it? You refuse to recognise that hospitalisations remain very low and far from overwhelmed, and that <2000 deaths to a pandemic 6 months on is actually very low?

Zero new deaths again today - but sure yes, let's continue to impose restrictions on people's interactions, movements (if you live in Kildare), businesses - more than just pubs by the way. Personally I rarely set foot in a pub anymore (even before Covid) but I can see the damage being done to that sector and across the board.

So again.. What are you so afraid of? Because you say you're not blind to these things, so there must be some other reason.

i_surge

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

So your entire argument is based around new cases? You refuse to acknowledge that the overwhelming majority of those cases will be just fine or may not realise they even had it? You refuse to recognise that hospitalisations remain very low and far from overwhelmed, and that <2000 deaths to a pandemic 6 months on is actually very low?

Zero new deaths again today - but sure yes, let's continue to impose restrictions on people's interactions, movements (if you live in Kildare), businesses - more than just pubs by the way. Personally I rarely set foot in a pub anymore (even before Covid) but I can see the damage being done to that sector and across the board.


So again.. What are you so afraid of? Because you say you're not blind to these things, so there must be some other reason.

Explain Peru to me.

_Kaiser_

i_surge wrote: »

Explain Peru to me.

I don't live in Peru. Or the USA, or New Zealand.

I'm concerned about what's happening in Ireland and here, for months now, the death rates have been very low and stable, the numbers in hospital or ICU have been low, and despite the country being (mostly) open for movement and interaction for months now, this continues to be the position. That even despite the magic masks that we all now have to wear but didn't in those earlier stages and yet the above metrics still stayed low.

New cases means nothing as I've repeatedly said. The outcome of cases is the important figure and luckily for the overwhelming majority of people, they'll be just fine.

i_surge

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I don't live in Peru. Or the USA, or New Zealand.

I'm concerned about what's happening in Ireland and here, for months now, the death rates have been very low and stable, the numbers in hospital or ICU have been low, and despite the country being (mostly) open for movement and interaction for months now, this continues to be the position. That even despite the magic masks that we all now have to wear but didn't in those earlier stages and yet the above metrics still stayed low.

New cases means nothing as I've repeatedly said. The outcome of cases is the important figure and luckily for the overwhelming majority of people, they'll be just fine.

Peru shows that the virus is still destructive and still multiplies. How does what you want account for that?

You seem fooled by the low numbers now, they might not stay that way. Look at France the curve is a sight to behold on new cases.

PTH2009

Numbers are high but looking at the news and see that funeral in Donegal really puts this in perspective

Take a breather today

_Kaiser_

i_surge wrote: »

Peru shows that the virus is still destructive and still multiplies. How does what you want account for that?

You seem fooled by the low numbers now, they might not stay that way. Look at France the curve is a sight to behold on new cases.

Well maybe CV-19 is more virulent in warmer climates, maybe some races have built up a better tolerance because of their geographical location and other diseases they've built a natural immunity to, maybe medical standards are different. Lots of possible factors. It's already obvious it doesn't affect everyone in a single country the same way, why wouldn't their be similar differences between geographies?

And yes, things could get worse, or they could stay the same, or they could improve. The problem with looking at the issue solely from the conservative-by-nature medical aspect is that the models and analysis are based on the worst case scenario or with the goal of getting the virus to zero. A goal we all share, but which isn't likely in the near-medium term, and thus we need to find a way to live with it.

But we also need to balance the response against social and economic factors and we will see the pendulum swing as those social/economic costs deepen in the coming months. The goal thus must be to still protect the most at risk (which are known) to make the best use of our finite resources, while encouraging everyone else to return to normal as much as possible

i_surge

A lot of maybes Kaiser.

Would we not want a bit more certainty before throwing caution to the wind, no?

And here don't make me laugh about the economic angle, you still haven't answered my question.

People say i am unrealistic and they are right to an extent but there is no realism from any of you here on the economy and what happens next. We are setting up for a long painful economic death with the current trajectory and no one here has convinced me otherwise, or even tried to, because you kinda know I'm right and are afraid to admit it (to yourselves)

walus

i_surge wrote: »

A lot of maybes Kaiser.

Would we not want a bit more certainty before throwing caution to the wind, no?

And here don't make me laugh about the economic angle, you still haven't answered my question.

People say i am unrealistic and they are right to an extent but there is no realism from any of you here on the economy and what happens next. We are setting up for a long painful economic death with the current trajectory and no one here has convinced me otherwise, or even tried to, because you kinda know I'm right and are afraid to admit it (to yourselves)

To address the economic impact the government must ensure that people’s perception about the future is positive and that they have means to participate in the economy that is 70% shaped by consumption. The quantitative easing (printing money) that did not work to stimulate the economy in the best of times will not work this time either. It is the corporations taking on the free money and not the citizens. They should introduce quantitative easing for the people in which case lodge the money directly into everybody’s bank accounts. People will spend this money and it will go into circulation increasing in an effect inflation at which point money printing can ease of and payments to people’s accounts suspend. Right now the rich are getting the benefit of cheap credit and are using it to make more money (see stock market).
That is a way to get the economy going again imo.

growleaves

i_surge wrote: »

Explain Peru to me.

Peru had one of the earliest and strictest lockdowns in the world. The President of Peru has said that the results of the lockdown "haven't been exactly what we expected". Uh huh.

There is no basis for the medicalisation of society and politics, and the creation of a bureaucratic surveillance society with forced shutdowns and restricted travel, controlled labour etc.

You support these things because you support them, not because you can demonstrate that they prevent more deaths than would happen otherwise.

This pandemic has killed less than Asian Flu (2 million), Hong Kong Kung Flu (1 million) and AIDS (33 million).

It's sad when people die certainly but all of the authoritarian accoutrements of the last six months are a choice, totally novel and without any proven basis or precedent.

Limpy

Massive crowds attending the Funeral today. Good or bad?

i_surge

walus wrote: »

To address the economic impact the government must ensure that people’s perception about the future is positive and that they have means to participate in the economy that is 70% shaped by consumption. The quantitative easing (printing money) that did not work to stimulate the economy in the best of times will not work this time either. It is the corporations taking on the free money and not the citizens. They should introduce quantitative easing for the people in which case longe the money directly into everybody’s bank accounts. People will spend this money and it will go into circulation increasing in an effect inflation at which point money printing can ease of and payments to people’s accounts suspended. Right now the rich are getting the benefit of cheap credit and are using it to make more money (see stock market).
That is a way to get the economy going again imo.

So the answer to the growing debt problem is more debt and then get the poor to transfer it to the rich via consumerism. You have just exacerbated the problem you are trying to solve.

We could pay people to dig holes that is the usual way of pretending there is an economy.

Oh btw it is exactly what is happening now., giving money to the public

growleaves

Limpy wrote: »

Massive crowds attending the Funeral today. Good or bad?

Indifferent. The causality of outdoor transmission is a dream. Where is the evidence that anyone will pick up a respiratory illness gathering outdoors in the fresh air in summer?

Genuinely interested in this evidence and I'm sure supporters of restrictions are anxious to provide it.

odyssey06

growleaves wrote: »

Indifferent. The causality of outdoor transmission is a dream. Where is the evidence that even a single person will pick up a respiratory illness gathering outdoors in the fresh air in summer?
Genuinely interested in this evidence and I'm sure supporters of restrictions are anxious to provide it.

The didnt transport into the outdoors and then straight back home.

Where are they going afterwards.

i_surge

growleaves wrote: »

Indifferent. The causality of outdoor transmission is a dream. Where is the evidence that even a single person will pick up a respiratory illness gathering outdoors in the fresh air in summer?

Genuinely interested in this evidence and I'm sure supporters of restrictions are anxious to provide it.

I am sure it is possible but outdoors with some basic distance is magnitudes safer than indoors.

Limpy

growleaves wrote: »

Indifferent. The causality of outdoor transmission is a dream. Where is the evidence that anyone will pick up a respiratory illness gathering outdoors in the fresh air in summer?

Genuinely interested in this evidence and I'm sure supporters of restrictions are anxious to provide it.

Ive no issue with it. If it was a Sinn Fein funeral the hacks would be all over it.

odyssey06

i_surge wrote: »

I am sure it is possible but outdoors with some basic distance is magnitudes safer than indoors.

It is possible - cases tracked to an outdoor yoga class.

i_surge

growleaves wrote: »

Peru had one of the earliest and strictest lockdowns in the world. The President of Peru has said that the results of the lockdown "haven't been exactly what we expected". Uh huh.

There is no basis for the medicalisation of society and politics, and the creation of a bureaucratic surveillance society with forced shutdowns and restricted travel, controlled labour etc.

You support these things because you support them, not because you can demonstrate that they prevent more deaths than would happen otherwise.

This pandemic has killed less than Asian Flu (2 million), Hong Kong Kung Flu (1 million) and AIDS (33 million).

It's sad when people die certainly but all of the authoritarian accoutrements of the last six months are a choice, totally novel and without any proven basis or precedent.

I meant from an epidemiological standpoint. It shows the virus has not weakened, the strain there anyway, our vulnerable are just locked up out of danger most likely.

You all seem to support letting them rot indefinitely too. Trade their liberty for yours. Freedom fighters my hole. Clueless

CruelSummer

i_surge wrote: »

I meant from an epidemiological standpoint. It shows the virus has not weakened, the strain there anyway, our vulnerable are just locked up out of danger most likely.

You all seem to support letting them rot indefinitely too. Trade their liberty for yours. Freedom fighters my hole. Clueless

I see I didn't get any answers to the questions I asked yesterday which is disappointing if you're genuinely looking for debate...

Using the 'We will all kill the elderly and vulnerable' argument for wanting our lives back is a tired argument...you see where I live, there isn't a single case of Covid 19 in hospital...not one. There are plenty of people of all ages following their own 'guidelines', social distancing rules, etc., that are not what NPHET are recommending. We are all still standing, people are not dying on the streets. There has been plenty of U.K. people and others on staycations in my county, including Big Phil and a group of politicians at a golfing event...guess what - NO ONE IS SICK.
Picking out a 'caseademic' from France without relevant hospital/death numbers is pointless. I woke up to this when out of 87 tests in a food factory here, 83 were asymptomatic...I then discovered an article in The Lancet suggesting the PCR test is not accurate anymore as it could be identifying prior infections as positive asymptomatic cases.

We don't put ourselves in a strong position internationally to recover from this by racking up Billions in debt, pursuing zero Covid, while then trying to spend Billions on a Vaccine to allow 'normality' to resume, and putting ourselves at the mercy of foreign interests on both fronts.
This Winter will tell the tale as to will Covid return in another form/strain and become a seasonal illness...because at the moment, the danger has clearly subsided, and so should the restrictions accordingly.

i_surge

CruelSummer wrote: »

I see I didn't get any answers to the questions I asked yesterday which is disappointing if you're genuinely looking for debate...

Using the 'We will all kill the elderly and vulnerable' argument for wanting our lives back is a tired argument...you see where I live, there isn't a single case of Covid 19 in hospital...not one. There are plenty of people of all ages following their own 'guidelines', social distancing rules, etc., that are not what NPHET are recommending. We are all still standing, people are not dying on the streets. There has been plenty of U.K. people and others on staycations in my county, including Big Phil and a group of politicians at a golfing event...guess what - NO ONE IS SICK.
Picking out a 'caseademic' from France without relevant hospital/death numbers is pointless. I woke up to this when out of 87 tests in a food factory here, 83 were asymptomatic...I then discovered an article in The Lancet suggesting the PCR test is not accurate anymore as it could be identifying prior infections as positive asymptomatic cases.

We don't put ourselves in a strong position internationally to recover from this by racking up Billions in debt, pursuing zero Covid, while then trying to spend Billions on a Vaccine to allow 'normality' to resume, and putting ourselves at the mercy of foreign interests on both fronts.
This Winter will tell the tale as to will Covid return in another form/strain and become a seasonal illness...because at the moment, the danger has clearly subsided, and so should the restrictions accordingly.

You just don't get it, the low deaths are because the vulnerable are protected. They have civil rights too and allowing an environment to fester where they are at risk. It is still spreadable, very.

Aren't you always banging the back to normal drum? How can it only apply to some people, fairly?

growleaves

i_surge wrote: »

I meant from an epidemiological standpoint. It shows the virus has not weakened, the strain there anyway, our vulnerable are just locked up out of danger most likely.

You all seem to support letting them rot indefinitely too. Trade their liberty for yours. Freedom fighters my hole. Clueless

I haven't called myself a "freedom fighter". I haven't done any freedom fighting of any kind, all I've done is point out that creating a tightly controlled society along authoritarian lines has no historical or scientific basis for containing pandemics, and no one has shown it does anything outside of a 'just so' confirmation bias.

The most basic scrutiny or request for proof is met with emotional screeds about sacrificing the vulnerable.

odyssey06

growleaves wrote: »

This pandemic has killed less than Asian Flu (2 million), Hong Kong Kung Flu (1 million) and AIDS (33 million).

It has killed less than those flus so far only because of the unprecedented measures taken globally to contain it.
And the death toll for covid19 is still rising.
Both of those previous flus were only brought to and end by vaccines.

As for AIDS, covid19 has killed more people this year.
It is not a valid comparison to compare the full death toll for an outbreak less than a year old with one decades long.

Micky 32

odyssey06 wrote: »

And the death toll for covid19 is still rising.

I was just looking at Worldometer, it seems worldwide deaths and cases are begining to subside but i’m sure you’ll have an excuse for it.

odyssey06

Micky 32 wrote: »

I was just looking at Worldometer, it seems worldwide deaths and cases are begining to subside but i’m sure you’ll have an excuse for it.

The death toll is still rising.
My point needs no excuse.
This virus has not run its course therefore any comparison with the deaths from other viruses needs to bear that in mind.

i_surge

growleaves wrote: »

I haven't called myself a "freedom fighter". I haven't done any freedom fighting of any kind, all I've done is point out that creating a tightly controlled society along authoritarian lines has no historical or scientific basis for containing pandemics, and no one has shown it does anything outside of a 'just so' confirmation bias.

The most basic scrutiny or request for proof is met with emotional screeds about sacrificing the vulnerable.

Ok sorry, I don't know your position in that, talking more generally at those who bang the civil liberties drum.

I am not emotional about it, but seriously, the plan whatever it is has to work for everybody.

Otherwise it makes a mockery of the civil rights arguments

Micky 32

odyssey06 wrote: »

The death toll is still rising.
My point needs no excuse.
This virus has not run its course therefore any comparison with the deaths from other viruses needs to bear that in mind.

You obviously didn’t read my post so i’ll repeat. I never said the virus has ran it’s course. The death toll is subsiding worldwide and daily new cases. Is that hard to understand?