Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

growleaves

TRANQUILLO,

I don't agree with your point number 5 as I don't see this situation as a trade-off between lives of the elderly and commerce.

Where I'm coming from is that I'm not convinced that these containment methods are really doing anything. People don't want to admit to unknowns, they are very amenable to political solutions for every conceivable problem including ones that require controlling nature (which ties into popular environmentalism, and we were in the midst of Greta Thunberg-centred controversies before this thing hit) and they find simple cause-and-effect explanations satisfying.

When asked about substantive evidence and proof many people get narky. The cumulative weight of media, political and scientific assertion is supposed to outweigh quotidian scientific procedures.

I generally agree with the thrust of your post though.

TRANQUILLO

growleaves wrote: »

TRANQUILLO,

I don't agree with your point number 5 as I don't see this situation as a trade-off between lives of the elderly and commerce.

Where I'm coming from is that I'm not convinced that these containment methods are really doing anything. People don't want to admit to unknowns, they are very amenable to political solutions for every conceivable problem including ones that require controlling nature (which ties into popular environmentalism, and we were in the midst of Greta Thunberg-centred controversies before this thing hit) and they find simple cause-and-effect explanations satisfying.



When asked about substantive evidence and proof many people get narky. The cumulative weight of media, political and scientific assertion is supposed to outweigh quotidian scientific procedures.

I generally agree with the thrust of your post though.

You could argue that it is between the elderly and commerce though . It's only the elderly dying in any meaningful number if you look at the data dispassionately . The rest is superfluous. Am I to give up the next ten years of my life so grandad dies at 78 instead of 74 and only due to pneumonia instead of covid by the grace of god.

FintanMcluskey

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

You could argue that it is between the elderly and commerce though . It's only the elderly dying in any meaningful number if you look at the data dispassionately . The rest is superfluous. Am I to give up the next ten years of my life so grandad dies at 78 instead of 74 and only due to pneumonia instead of covid by the grace of god.

This is the issue.

The life of thousands of people has been sacrificed to prolong the life of a few hundred people in nursing homes.

This is where the PC culture becomes its most dangerous.

Would our grandfather's have stood for this ****??

Would they ****, and they didnt, they lived along side a plethora of actually dangerous illnesses like TB and polio

froog

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

This is the issue.

The life of thousands of people has been sacrificed to prolong the life of a few hundred people in nursing homes.

This is where the PC culture becomes its most dangerous.

Would our grandfather's have stood for this ****??

Would they ****, and they didnt, they lived along side a plethora of actually dangerous illnesses like TB and polio

It's PC culture to keep old people alive now?? Jesus christ.

FintanMcluskey

froog wrote: »

It's PC culture to keep old people alive now?? Jesus christ.

No, its PC culture to choose who lives.

Less of the hysteria pet

TRANQUILLO

froog wrote: »

It's PC culture to keep old people alive now?? Jesus christ.

That's not what he said though is it? That should have been point number 14 in my post.

People just want to find "the" fault in everyone else's post. Easier to spot a spelling mistake, attribute a false insinuation to a post or just wilfully ignore the central tenet of a point than it is to engage in a constructive discourse.

FintanMcluskey

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

That's not what he said though is it? That should have been point number 14 in my post.

People just want to find "the" fault in everyone else's post. Easier to spot a spelling mistake, attribute a false insinuation to a post or just wilfully ignore the central tenet of a point than it is to engage in a constructive discourse.

Dont give them a response.

If they want to sacrifice a few thousand children's/mothers lives for the sake of other lives, let them at it, they think they are god seemingly.

We know whats ahead, its going to be rough

i_surge

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

No, its PC culture to choose who lives.

Less of the hysteria pet

Is that not what you and your fellow travellers on here are doing?

Prioritising the comfort of one group for the safety of another, all with the laughably naive ambition to some how restore a wounded economy with a magic sponge.

No one here gets that precautions are not because the present state is that dangerous, it is to prevent the future from being so.

Anyway patriots ye are all doing a fine job of keeping us in a half life of no craic for about two years more than is needed. Great job

I'm almost jealous of the ignorance is bliss mentality.

i_surge

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

This is the issue.

The life of thousands of people has been sacrificed to prolong the life of a few hundred people in nursing homes.

This is where the PC culture becomes its most dangerous.

Would our grandfather's have stood for this ****??

Would they ****, and they didnt, they lived along side a plethora of actually dangerous illnesses like TB and polio

Survivor bias explains away most of that argument. The ones who died never fathered kids.

FintanMcluskey

i_surge wrote: »

Survivor bias explains away most of that argument. The ones who died never fathered kids.

As neither did anyone in a nursing home

i_surge

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

As neither did anyone in a nursing home

Yes lots of pregnancies in the nursing home

end of the road

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

This is the issue.

The life of thousands of people has been sacrificed to prolong the life of a few hundred people in nursing homes.

no they haven't.
some small scale restrictions have been put on us to slow down the spread of the virus to protect public health as a whole and not overwhelm the health service.
the complete opposite of sacrificing lives.

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

This is where the PC culture becomes its most dangerous.

public health has nothing to do with pc culture.
try again.

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Would our grandfather's have stood for this ****??

yes, i would expect they would have stood for precautions to protect public health, they wouldn't have stood for the headbangers railing against everything and dragging things out way way longer then would have been needed if they just followed everything, however.

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Would they ****, and they didnt, they lived along side a plethora of actually dangerous illnesses like TB and polio

except they did where possible by taking precautions in relation to tb, and doing everything they could until they had the ability to eradicate both illnesses.
all though i believe unfortunately tb is on the rise again.

bush

Lundstram wrote: »

No deaths again today, I recall a lot of posters on here two weeks ago spouting “wait a week or two and you’ll see deaths”. “Give it time”.

Deadly virus my arse.

Almost as if they want to see deaths

end of the road

bush wrote: »

Almost as if they want to see deaths

i would doubt it very, very much.

FintanMcluskey

end of the road wrote: »

no they haven't.
some small scale restrictions have been put on us to slow down the spread of the virus to protect public health as a whole and not overwhelm the health service.

No the issue some get their education from social media.

Bottom line, the cancellation of treatment's and procedures will cost more lives than Covid.

The way some can sentence people to death is frightening

i_surge

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

No the issue some get their education from social media.

Bottom line, the cancellation of treatment's and procedures will cost more lives than Covid.

The way some can sentence people to death is frightening

For once i agree with you. Screening needs to get sorted.

TRANQUILLO

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

1. Politicians live and die by the case numbers now . As much as we don't like it we and the media need to go easier on them or they will continue to make stupid knee-jerk decisions such as Kildare. All politicians from all parties. They are useless but we are not as forgiving as the Swedes in this regard. The politicians over there have left Anders Tegnell to get on it with and the focus is on him without them using the virus to grandstand or bash the opposition to the extent we do. None of our parties in Ireland will do any better than the other because of the culture we have here. They are all cheeks on the same arse......and when this is all over it needs a good smacking.

2. Before March 2020 we had a blank slate in regards to this virus . Within 6 months we have added "covidiots" "anti relaxers" "anti maskers" etc into our lexicon. We are talking about R numbers and antigens now as if we are experts. We have dug our trenches and picked our teams and now we are all fighting amongst ourselves. Polarisation about something that didn't exist in our lives before Christmas

3. We have invented a new hyper morality where someone who cares more than you is neurotic and someone who cares less than you is reckless scum who wants to kill your grandad. The government and media are impressing upon us how important it is to save lives while smoking cigarettes is still legal

4. The goal posts have been shifted from flattening the curve (which is never spoken about any more) to aiming for zero or near zero covid. Covid is the only metric by which we judge success now. All other diseases and causes of death can wait. We don't need graphs for them.

5. There has to be a callous pragmatic discussion had with ones self about how long it is acceptable to have (for example) 500 air hostesses and bar staff to be unemployed, to give 4 grandads 3 more years of life. I don't want anyone to die but there must be a line in each of our heads where someone else's life doesn't actually matter to us any more compared to the societal damage keeping those grandads alive causes. People will pretend that they don't have a line, but there is a line somewhere where grandad dying is the cost of doing business. Where the line is however is the question.

6. Deaths caused by Covid and ICU admissions caused by covid in parallel with ICU overall capacity should be the only numbers we are interested in .

7. High case numbers is good for clicks

8. People have a blind hypocrisy in relation to their tunnel vision quest to fight Covid. I have been regaled of tails of how dangerous this virus is by mates who would have no problem doing the odd line of cocaine or driving with a pint or two in them. Amazing how this invisible virus has finally put manners on these thrill seekers.

9. Not wanting or choosing not to wear a mask does not mean a person supports Donald Trump, are against immigration , gay rights , are anti abortion or kill puppies.

10. People who don't wear masks and who don't support lockdowns also pay taxes, vote and have parents who are old too.

11. BLM and Covid have one huge thing in common. Hysteria and bad faith arguments on both sides of the opinion.

12. The discourse is virtually pointless now on Boards.ie and on other media platforms as people cannot even agree on statistics or facts. The numbers are meaningless at this stage. One mans opinion seems to mean as much as another mans fact.
The conversation has been rendered completely redundant.

13. If we NCT'd every car in Ireland over a 4 month period we would have an "epidemic" of "unroadworthy" vehicles. Most of these owners would not have known anything was wrong with their cars at all and they were driving just fine......

Bit of a mish mash of ideas here.

Agree with some but some I can't get behind.

We figured out mask prevent the spread of viral diseases 100 years ago.

I really don't think Ireland is polarised but that's just the opinion of my bubble.

We were never going for covid zero. We wouldn't have opened up at all if that was the case. I wish we at least tried that method. Too late now.

Comparing a highly infectious virus to recreational drugs, cigarettes and broken cars doesn't make sense.

Point 12 is ironic enough.

The rest is agreeable more or less.

FintanMcluskey

Deleted User wrote: »

Bit of a mish mash of ideas here.

Agree with some but some I can't get behind.

We figured out mask prevent the spread of viral diseases 100 years ago.

I really don't think Ireland is polarised but that's just the opinion of my bubble.

We were never going for covid zero. We wouldn't have opened up at all if that was the case. I wish we at least tried that method. Too late now.

Comparing a highly infectious virus to recreational drugs, cigarettes and broken cars doesn't make sense.

Point 12 is ironic enough.

The rest is agreeable more or less.

You have no argument so

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

You have no argument so

?

pjohnson

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

No the issue some get their education from social media.

Most honest thing you've said.

Thats how you get the eejits at anti-mask protests. Their failure to get a proper education means they are vulnerable to the "teachings" of Jim Corr and the other loops.

FintanMcluskey

pjohnson wrote: »

Most honest thing you've said.

Thats how you get the eejits at anti-mask protests. Their failure to get a proper education means they are vulnerable to the "teachings" of Jim Corr and the other loops.

Jedward and Sinead O'Connor

pjohnson

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Jedward and Sinead O'Connor

Yes Fintan those 3 people are more intelligent than Jim Corr. Well done.

TRANQUILLO

end of the road wrote: »

no they haven't.
some small scale restrictions have been put on us to slow down the spread of the virus to protect public health as a whole and not overwhelm the health service.
the complete opposite of sacrificing lives.



public health has nothing to do with pc culture.
try again.



yes, i would expect they would have stood for precautions to protect public health, they wouldn't have stood for the headbangers railing against everything and dragging things out way way longer then would have been needed if they just followed everything, however.



except they did where possible by taking precautions in relation to tb, and doing everything they could until they had the ability to eradicate both illnesses.
all though i believe unfortunately tb is on the rise again.

Small scale by who's definition though?

I didn't want to personalise it but for example I lost my job in July after putting in 17 years of training to get the position I held. I got a good leaving cert, I went to college and climbed the ranks. As far as i was concerned I kept my side of the bargain with society and my parents.After being hit with the 2008 recession I didn't suckle at the teet of the welfare state. I emigrated, got work experience in my field abroad and returned in 2013 and added to my qualifications in Ireland with more college. The last three years was the first time I made any decent money and I was about to start a family and buy a house. I cant emigrate now because the industry I work in (aviation) has been decimated. The government have tax incentivised people to not use the industry I work in to stay and holiday at home. Im 37 now and the clock is ticking on myself and my partners ability to start a family and settle down. prior to losing my job EBS who I was dealing with stated they were reticent to give a mortgage to anyone in aviation and even moreso to someone who was on furlough at the time. They were right as I am now jobless.

The "suck it up buttercup" brigade will be along to tell me to go off and get another career. So with bars and restaurants ruined and nobody hiring at the low skill end to tide me over I presume I am to go off and do another degree to become an accountant or a quantity surveyor or something and try again at life when im 41 or 42 years old?

As I alluded to in my initial post I don't think people asking questions about when we can get back to normal are headbangers as you call them. Its disingenuous to think we are railing against everything like belligerent brats when a country a two hour flight away (Sweden) also in the EU is doing far far better in a holistic way , when you weigh up economy, deaths, mood, personal prospects and security of tenure.

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

What's your plan so? Lets hear it. If you know what we're doing is wrong then you must know what is the correct course of action? Otherwise its just meaningless nonsense. What do we need to do differently?

We don't need to have an over elaborate plan. Our testing and tracing could be improved but its at a decent level now.

The most important thing is to keep the nursing homes protected. They are the only people that are going to die in any sort of considerable numbers. With our testing and tracing in place, we won't get back to a level were there are 235 clusters in nursing homes again.

The elderly and the vulnerable should be encouraged to take extra care, which they have been told to do to be fair. It is up to them now to do so.

Everybody else should continue to wash hands and social distance as much as possible.

We need to analyze the cause when clusters do pop up and take appropriate actions. Outbreaks in meat factories should not result in counties going into lockdown or other businesses been forced to close.

We should be looking at what we can do to help prevent the spread in factories. Temp checks, testing, random inspections, closures if needed.

With only 4 in ICU and very few deaths to speak of over the last number of weeks, it is time for people to start going about their lives as normal again.

We need to accept the reality that some people are going to sick and some people might die. Same way other illnesses kill people everyday.

It is time to act like grown ups and have a sensible approach that won't bankrupt a whole generation.

TRANQUILLO

Deleted User wrote: »

Bit of a mish mash of ideas here.

Agree with some but some I can't get behind.

We figured out mask prevent the spread of viral diseases 100 years ago.

I really don't think Ireland is polarised but that's just the opinion of my bubble.

We were never going for covid zero. We wouldn't have opened up at all if that was the case. I wish we at least tried that method. Too late now.

Comparing a highly infectious virus to recreational drugs, cigarettes and broken cars doesn't make sense.

Point 12 is ironic enough.

The rest is agreeable more or less.

There were no "mish mash of ideas" presented. It was a list of observations

Well in response to you point about post 12 I had planned on making one post (my initial one) and then bowing out, which I will be doing shortly. The discourse is getting me down to be honest. And I blame both sides for that. Even if the post was Ironic ....so what? How does the man who drives the snow plough get to work? I had to add to the dumpster fire to tell people it was a dumpster fire. I didn't start the dumpster fire nor have I intended to pour petrol on it.

I didnt compare a disease to recreational drugs. I compared peoples attitudes to the disease and to recreational drugs. My point being people have invented a new personal morality/standard/fear possibly influenced by the hysteria and media narrative. The casedemic for want of a better phrase.

Covid zero is being mooted by people such as Tomas Ryan who is on Eamon Dunphys podcasts every three days telling us to go to our army bunkers and come back out in 2025. Isn't it well for him with his guaranteed salary security of Tenure and 15 minutes of fame.


Look .... i googled chances of getting cancer and the first result said its a 1 in 3 shot for men.

I'll be generous and multiply that by 5 . Lets say its a 1 in 15 chance of getting cancer ..its still more of a threat to me than dying of covid 19. Im not afraid of covid. A lot of the old and ill died and that's an awful tragedy but they cant die twice.

MadYaker

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

You could argue that it is between the elderly and commerce though . It's only the elderly dying in any meaningful number if you look at the data dispassionately . The rest is superfluous. Am I to give up the next ten years of my life so grandad dies at 78 instead of 74 and only due to pneumonia instead of covid by the grace of god.

Ten years hahaha. You haven’t a clue.

MadYaker

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We don't need to have an over elaborate plan. Our testing and tracing could be improved but its at a decent level now.

The most important thing is to keep the nursing homes protected. They are the only people that are going to die in any sort of considerable numbers. With our testing and tracing in place, we won't get back to a level were there are 235 clusters in nursing homes again.

The elderly and the vulnerable should be encouraged to take extra care, which they have been told to do to be fair. It is up to them now to do so.

Everybody else should continue to wash hands and social distance as much as possible.

We need to analyze the cause when clusters do pop up and take appropriate actions. Outbreaks in meat factories should not result in counties going into lockdown or other businesses been forced to close.

We should be looking at what we can do to help prevent the spread in factories. Temp checks, testing, random inspections, closures if needed.

With only 4 in ICU and very few deaths to speak of over the last number of weeks, it is time for people to start going about their lives as normal again.

We need to accept the reality that some people are going to sick and some people might die. Same way other illnesses kill people everyday.

It is time to act like grown ups and have a sensible approach that won't bankrupt a whole generation.

Now I’m really confused. You just outlined exactly what we are currently doing in this country.

You don’t agree with those counties being put on lockdown but you have no idea of the situation that they faced when they did the contact tracing. Logic would suggest it was necessary or they wouldn’t have done it.

TRANQUILLO

MadYaker wrote: »

Ten years hahaha. You haven’t a clue.

The ensuing recession could affect us for the best part of a decade no?

As the people who use emotive language to scaremonger would say " we don't know the long term effects of the virus" .

That goes for economically and biologically equally.

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

Now I’m really confused. You just outlined exactly what we are currently doing in this country.

You don’t agree with those counties being put on lockdown but you have no idea of the situation that they faced when they did the contact tracing. Logic would suggest it was necessary or they wouldn’t have done it.

We've had pubs closed for almost half a year now. The only ones open are been forced to act like restaurants and have curfews etc.

We have shops operating at reduced capacity. Not allowed to use changing rooms etc. Only a certain number allowed in to the shop.

People are not allowed to watch their children play sports. People are only supposed to have 6 in their houses etc.

People are been forced to wear masks.

All of these restrictions need to vanish.

TRANQUILLO

MadYaker wrote: »

Ten years hahaha. You haven’t a clue.

The point still stands by the way if i said " 2 years of my life" ," 4 years of my life" etc.


How much of a setback does one have to endure to save the life of another. There must be a line somewhere ? Is there a cost attached? I think its an interesting conversation to be had.