Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

Plumbthedepths

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Melbourne/Israel/Iran all have had big second surges. Cases are rising in practically every country in Europe since July. When it gets to a certain point its too late as we saw in March. We have no choice but to hunt this virus down. Our r rate has been over 1 for over a month. Signs are not good r rate has to get below one soon or more restrictions will come in until it is below 1.

So how long do we keep restrictions in place, do we destroy every part of our economy / society to suppress a virus that does not affect 85% of the population. How much damage is too much?

All this hysteria and I don't think we've even had 10 deaths in the last month. (Removing backlog)

UK have more people dying of flu and pneumonia.

Assetbacked

bucketybuck wrote: »

And why not?

Wasnt "flatten the curve" all about buying time for the health service? So what have they been doing with that time?

Getting free Deliveroo and applause.

odyssey06

Deleted User wrote: »

All this hysteria and I don't think we've even had 10 deaths in the last month. (Removing backlog)
UK have more people dying of flu and pneumonia.

Not sure what hysteria you mean.
Are 10 people dead from hysteria?
Sounds serious.

You'll have to point out the actual hysterical posts for us.
That's much more hard work than shouting hysteria, I understand, but it is your claim.

I thought over 1000 people were dead here from covid-19, and the figures would undoubtedly be far far higher were it not for the restrictions, distancing, and changes in people's behaviour.

Coronavirus can trigger pneumonia, it's how this was first flagged in China.

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

So how long do we keep restrictions in place, do we destroy every part of our economy / society to suppress a virus that does not affect 85% of the population. How much damage is too much?

It's a balancing act. If we saw 800 people again in hospitals with covid and hundreds of health workers getting infected each week that to me is failure. When things are going the wrong way you are weeks behind knowing who's getting infected and who will need to go to hospital. If r rate is consistently greater than 1 like it has been now for over a month restrictions have to take place. Collectively it is about getting our rate below 1 again ASAP. Alot of people want r rate to go below 1 as long as doesn't effect them too much. That's not how it works unfortunately.

Assetbacked

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Melbourne/Israel/Iran all have had big second surges. Cases are rising in practically every country in Europe since July. When it gets to a certain point its too late as we saw in March. We have no choice but to hunt this virus down. Our r rate has been over 1 for over a month. Signs are not good r rate has to get below one soon or more restrictions will come in until it is below 1.

This is absolute rubbish! FFS! Melbourne isn't having a second surge, it never had a first surge so all that is happening is that it delayed its first surge. Look at the graph in this article which shows the rise in cases;

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/datablog/ng-interactive/2020/aug/19/victoria-coronavirus-map-melbourne-covid-19-cases-by-region-vic-case-numbers-data-trend-graph-rising-falling-corona-hotspots-areas-postcodes

There is one big surge of cases, deaths and hospitalisations. After that it is just spikes in cases but not deaths and hospitalisations.

Assetbacked

odyssey06 wrote: »

Not sure what hysteria you mean.
Are 10 people dead from hysteria?
Sounds serious.

You'll have to point out the actual hysterical posts for us.
That's much more hard work than shouting hysteria, I understand, but it is your claim.

I thought over 1000 people were dead here from covid-19, and the figures would undoubtedly be far far higher were it not for the restrictions, distancing, and changes in people's behaviour.

Coronavirus can trigger pneumonia, it's how this was first flagged in China.

There are not over 1000 dead people here from covid. The numbers include deaths with covid. We know that 92% had underlying conditions and that the median age for deaths "with" covid is higher than the median life expectancy, which means it is not an exceptionally dangerous virus! Anything which says otherwise is hysteria.

Plumbthedepths

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a balancing act. If we saw 800 people again in hospitals with covid and hundreds of health workers getting infected each week that to me is failure. When things are going the wrong way you are weeks behind knowing who's getting infected and who will need to go to hospital. If r rate is consistently greater than 1 like it has been now for over a month restrictions have to take place. Collectively it is about getting our rate below 1 again ASAP. Alot of people want r rate to go below 1 as long as doesn't effect them too much. That's not how it works unfortunately.

So you have no idea how long you want restrictions in place for. Do we just throw vast numbers of our population on the scrapheap and say sorry your lives/futures mean nothing.
This is not a virus that attacks the youth in any great numbers. That is fact.

odyssey06

Assetbacked wrote: »

There are not over 1000 dead people here from covid. The numbers include deaths with covid. We know that 92% had underlying conditions and that the median age for deaths "with" covid is higher than the median life expectancy, which means it is not an exceptionally dangerous virus! Anything which says otherwise is hysteria.

There are over 1000 dead people from covid.
Our excess mortality figures show this.
There are lots of people older than than median life expectancy.
There are lots of people with underlying conditions.
Just because someone is 80, or had an underlying condition, their lives can be shortened and ended because of coronavirus.
It would be untruthful to record their deaths as anything other than coronavirus related.

I have no idea what hysteria you are on about but I'm not going to be drawn into semantic games with you.
If you shout hysteria without any justification you are the one being hysterical.

GocRh

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Think that's just a temporary closure to get in line with new restrictions.

It does seem mad that they're being closed with restaurants are open though.

That's precisely the point. Immigration office is an indoor space, just like a restaurant. But differently from restaurants they've been working strictly by appointment, and I'd imagine no one would spend more than a few minutes in to get registered, as far as I'm aware they just collect fingerprints and a photograph.


None of the new restrictions apply to work places or limit the number of people allowed in a work environment.


Seems to me like yet another over conservative reaction from the goverment... I wonder if the HSE will be the next in line to restrict services?

acequion

SAMTALK wrote: »

If you're referring to me , I wasnt preaching or insulting young people. I stated that house parties will rise once back in college. I acknowledged that it was hard on them just as it was hard on everyone. why should they get more sympathy that other people.

What about the families who have mortgages and bills but risk losing 1 or both jobs. ? What about families with people with underlying conditions who are living in fear everyday ?

Why should the youth get more symapthy than any other group of people at the minute.

Actually I wasn't referring to you specifically, if at all. I don't have time to read all the posts. But I was referring to certain posters who frequent this and other Covid threads and imo they're zealots as their whole focus is on preaching at others. A wasted exercise as well as unsavoury.

My post was about lack of empathy. I have empathy with everybody suffering in this thing. But I have zero time for zealots and bullies. And despite the zealotry and severe restrictions, we now find ourselves with the fourth highest growth rate in Europe. So the heavy handed approach really has backfired.

Plumbthedepths

GocRh wrote: »

That's precisely the point. Immigration office is an indoor space, just like a restaurant. But differently from restaurants they've been working strictly by appointment, and I'd imagine no one would spend more than a few minutes in to get registered, as far as I'm aware they just collect fingerprints and a photograph.


None of the new restrictions apply to work places or limit the number of people allowed in a work environment.


Seems to me like yet another over conservative reaction from the goverment... I wonder if the HSE will be the next in line to restrict services?

The HSE has already restricted services, which is why the worry of secondary deaths started to feature in the narrative to start to open up.

boggerman1

I notice now that the radio ad with your one of the we’re all in this together bull has changed tone.its very slap us all down and how dare us question our betters.

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

So you have no idea how long you want restrictions in place for. Do we just throw vast numbers of our population on the scrapheap and say sorry your lives/futures mean nothing.
This is not a virus that attacks the youth in any great numbers. That is fact.

OK. Just act normal like northern italy in February and wait for absolute carnage. They and we had an excuse in February/March due to underestimating it. Its really not as simplistic as just lit it rip through society and see who is left standing. Ain't going to happen in Europe anyway. Maybe you should move to Mumbai, they are more in keeping with your views.

SAMTALK

acequion wrote: »

Actually I wasn't referring to you specifically, if at all. I don't have time to read all the posts. But I was referring to certain posters who frequent this and other Covid threads and imo they're zealots as their whole focus is on preaching at others. A wasted exercise as well as unsavoury.

My post was about lack of empathy. I have empathy with everybody suffering in this thing. But I have zero time for zealots and bullies. And despite the zealotry and severe restrictions, we now find ourselves with the fourth highest growth rate in Europe. So the heavy handed approach really has backfired.

Apologies so .

FintanMcluskey

SAMTALK wrote: »

Im sick to the teeth of it too . Work and home, work and home.

I miss my social life and the sporting events I would spend the summer going to .

The restrictions won't be eased for the rest of your and my life, of that I have no doubt.

There will always be a dangerous seasonal illness

CalamariFritti

Deleted User wrote: »

OK. Just act normal like northern italy in February and wait for absolute carnage. They and we had an excuse in February/March due to underestimating it. Its really not as simplistic as just lit it rip through society and see who is left standing. Ain't going to happen in Europe anyway. Maybe you should move to Mumbai, they are more in keeping with your views.

I wouldnt use Mumbai to support your position. They measured a 0.05% to 0.1% IFR.

Sorry had to correct the percentages after rereading the publication.

odyssey06

odyssey06 wrote: »

Not sure what hysteria you mean.
Are 10 people dead from hysteria?
Sounds serious.

You'll have to point out the actual hysterical posts for us.
That's much more hard work than shouting hysteria, I understand, but it is your claim.

I thought over 1000 people were dead here from covid-19, and the figures would undoubtedly be far far higher were it not for the restrictions, distancing, and changes in people's behaviour.

Coronavirus can trigger pneumonia, it's how this was first flagged in China.

What hysteria? Crashing the economy. 3 counties in lockdown. Many restrictions in place that seem to be changing every other week.

All for a handful of deaths.

Yes we had a few deaths in the nursing homes back when there was 235 clusters.

People in nursing homes generally do tend to die though... they go there because their health is so poor that they're a burden to their family. It's sad, but its life.

SAMTALK

Deleted User wrote: »

What hysteria? Crashing the economy. 3 counties in lockdown. Many restrictions in place that seem to be changing every other week.

All for a handful of deaths.

Yes we had a few deaths in the nursing homes back when there was 235 clusters.

People in nursing homes generally do tend to die though... they go there because their health is so poor that they're a burden to their family. It's sad, but its life.

Maybe a handful of deaths because of the restrictions ?

FintanMcluskey

odyssey06 wrote: »

Just because someone is 80, or had an underlying condition, their lives can be shortened and ended because of coronavirus.

Thats ironic. There is a lot of children who's lives have ended prematurely due to the unending restrictions.

Their futures wiped out by hysterical nonsense

Assetbacked

Assetbacked wrote: »

This is absolute rubbish! FFS! Melbourne isn't having a second surge, it never had a first surge so all that is happening is that it delayed its first surge. Look at the graph in this article which shows the rise in cases;

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/datablog/ng-interactive/2020/aug/19/victoria-coronavirus-map-melbourne-covid-19-cases-by-region-vic-case-numbers-data-trend-graph-rising-falling-corona-hotspots-areas-postcodes

There is one big surge of cases, deaths and hospitalisations. After that it is just spikes in cases but not deaths and hospitalisations.

Where is March and April in your graph. Convenient.

See attached.

You think cases spiked a little after MarchApril.

odyssey06

Deleted User wrote: »

What hysteria? Crashing the economy. 3 counties in lockdown. Many restrictions in place that seem to be changing every other week.
All for a handful of deaths.
Yes we had a few deaths in the nursing homes back when there was 235 clusters.
People in nursing homes generally do tend to die though... they go there because their health is so poor that they're a burden to their family. It's sad, but its life.

I don't see any hysteria.
I see a pretty cavalier and selfish attitude to the value of the lives of the old and the vulnerable right here.
If you think the government are over-cautious and over-focused on protecting the vulnerable at the expense of the economy and the quality of life of the rest of the population, that's one thing.
The merits \ rationale for specific restrictions can be questioned.
The shape of where we go from here likewise.
But shouting hysteria is not an argument, it's just a slogan.

Assetbacked

odyssey06 wrote: »

There are over 1000 dead people from covid.
Our excess mortality figures show this.
There are lots of people older than than median life expectancy.
There are lots of people with underlying conditions.
Just because someone is 80, or had an underlying condition, their lives can be shortened and ended because of coronavirus.
It would be untruthful to record their deaths as anything other than coronavirus related.

I have no idea what hysteria you are on about but I'm not going to be drawn into semantic games with you.
If you shout hysteria without any justification you are the one being hysterical.

You're still saying "from" covid which implies covid caused the death. It didn't.

Further, when you look at the case fatality rate for the under 74s it is essentially the same risk as the flu for deaths, at least, that's what the data shows. Fair enough, covid should be something to discuss but it shouldn't shut down society and the economy and paralyse the health service through unnecessary prep the way it has.

odyssey06

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Thats ironic. There is a lot of children who's lives have ended prematurely due to the unending restrictions.
Their futures wiped out by hysterical nonsense

I have no idea what you on about.
Who are these children who have died?

Assetbacked

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Where is March and April in your graph. Convenient.

See attached.

You think cases spiked a little after MarchApril.

You have provided a graph showing "Australia" when we were talking about Melbourne! Look at the graph titled "Source of Covid-19 infections in Victoria".

The ignorance and deflection, constant goal-post moving with anti-relaxers is torture to try to discuss with.

HeidiHeidi

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Thats ironic. There is a lot of children who's lives have ended prematurely due to the unending restrictions.

Their futures wiped out by hysterical nonsense

And that's not hysterical hyperbole. At all, at all.

Micky 32

Assetbacked wrote: »

You're still saying "from" covid which implies covid caused the death. It didn't.

.

I know someone that was diagnosed with cancer and given weeks to live. When they were on their last they contracted covid and died , it was then recorded as a covid death even though they only had a week or 2 left due to cancer.. I wonder how many of the other “ over a 1000” were similiar circumstances.

SAMTALK

SAMTALK wrote: »

Maybe a handful of deaths because of the restrictions ?

Maybe it saved some.

Looking at Sweden though, I doubt it saved too many.

odyssey06

Assetbacked wrote: »

You're still saying "from" covid which implies covid caused the death. It didn't.
Further, when you look at the case fatality rate for the under 74s it is essentially the same risk as the flu for deaths, at least, that's what the data shows. Fair enough, covid should be something to discuss but it shouldn't shut down society and the economy and paralyse the health service through unnecessary prep the way it has.

Of course covid caused the deaths.
Not in all cases but the excess mortality figures show a clear spike in March-June, of more than 1000 deaths.
What I mean by that is that among the 1700+ people who are recorded as having died from covid in that period, are approximately 500 people who would have been expected to pass away during that period regardless of covid.

We had covid going through nursing home. The surge in deaths there was not due to spontaneous deaths totally unrelated to covid.
Their deaths were due to covid.

If we don't take measures against covid we will see more deaths, and yes they will be concentrated in vulnerable groups. But those vulnerable groups could have years and decades ahead of them with a quality of life - if they avoid infection.

There is a different debate about the costs of such measures, but it is those 'life years' that must be weighed in the balance.

Micky 32

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a balancing act. I

Why don’t you just have the balls and admit you would have loved it if the government had locked us all up yesterday. The virus isn’t going anywhere and the lockdown didn’t work it just kicked the can down the road a piece, i’m quite sure that’s obvious to you so why not admit you’d want us all locked down indefinately. Fortunately Life does not work that way .

It’s not going to happen, sorry. I’d rather catch the virus and take my chances than have the rest of my life and freedom taken from me. It’s obvious you musn’t have had much going on in your life pre covid.