Shelbourne Hotel remove historic statues due to association with slavery - *Read OP**

Donald Trump

MFPM wrote: »

Academics in the main don't use their titles on publications, so she didn't decide or need advise on it, pity you didn't check that before posting.

Academics in the main don't use "Dr" on their linkedin profiles. This lady does.....


How often have you heard Constantin Gurdgiev refer to himself as as Dr. Gurdgiev?


He used to be on the telly regularly for years.

MFPM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Academics in the main don't use "Dr" on their linkedin profiles. This lady does.....


How often have you heard Constantin Gurdgiev refer to himself as as Dr. Gurdgiev?


He used to be on the telly regularly for years.

This is really pathetic, you could have just accepted my point and said fair enough because it's accurate but no, your poor attitude to the woman is so entrenched you had to come back to add more nonsense.

Academics in the main don't use "Dr" on their linkedin profiles.

That's not true, there are many, many academics who do. But the poster raised the issue of her book not linkedin, this is goal post shifting by you.

Quite apart from anything else, there is nothing wrong with her or anyone else using 'Dr', they worked hard enough to get it.

How often have you heard Constantin Gurdgiev refer to himself as as Dr. Gurdgiev?

What on earth has that go to do with anything?

He used to be on the telly regularly for years

Yep. just like Professor Diarmuid Ferriter, or Professor Alan Ahearne or Dr Jennifer Kavanagh or Professor Brigid Laffan...or the rest of the raft of academics who appear in the media, see how often they are mentioned without their titles?

Donald Trump

MFPM wrote: »

This is really pathetic, you could have just accepted my point and said fair enough because it's accurate but no, your poor attitude to the woman is so entrenched you had to come back to add more nonsense.



That's not true, there are many, many academics who do. But the poster raised the issue of her book not linkedin, this is goal post shifting by you.

Quite apart from anything else, there is nothing wrong with her or anyone else using 'Dr', they worked hard enough to get it.



What on earth has that go to do with anything?



Yep. just like Professor Diarmuid Ferriter, or Professor Alan Ahearne or Dr Jennifer Kavanagh or Professor Brigid Laffan...or the rest of the raft of academics who appear in the media, see how often they are mentioned without their titles?

"Professor" is different. You might refer to a person in a public setting as a professor to show that they hold that particular role.



Show me where they refer to themselves as "professor". There will of course be the odd pretentious fucker who likes to call themselves "Dr.".


I don't think that you know very much about academia.



Your attitude seems to be "must protect the black lady at all cost to show I'm not a racist regardless of how much of a racist she is herself, or how much of a nutcase she shows herself to be"

MFPM

markodaly wrote: »

What is 'right' is subjective.

You may think abortion is murder and Gay marriage an abomination. Its a free country and off with you to think those things. However, the state has to leglistate on these matters and thus referendums have:
a) Allowed same sex marriage
b) Allows aborition


Therefore, in the eyes of the state, and the peoples eyes who voted on the matter via their democratic right and franchise collectively thought that those two things were 'right.


Similar to the vote in 2004. You can think what you want about but, you are in the minority and thus the will of the people in this case overrides your sense of righteous.

Again, you are free to think 80% of the people are wrong, away with you to campaign to have that amendment reversed, but until then suck it, accept the will of the people and move on.

My, my there's a post dripping in self righteous indignance. :rolleyes:

What is 'right' is subjective.

You are aware I was giving my 'subjective' opinion, or did you think I was writing on behalf of someone else?

You may think abortion is murder and Gay marriage an abomination. Its a free country and off with you to think those things. However, the state has to leglistate on these matters and thus referendums have:
a) Allowed same sex marriage
b) Allows aborition

I campaigned for years on both and voted Yes, thanks for the info.

Therefore, in the eyes of the state, and the peoples eyes who voted on the matter via their democratic right and franchise collectively thought that those two things were 'right.

Well, the people who voted 'yes' obviously. However are you seriously suggesting that because a majority of people vote for something that it's automatically 'right', seriously?

Again, you are free to think 80% of the people are wrong

Thank you, I do and many more like me judging by the number of campaigns ongoing to stop children and others from being deported.

away with you to campaign to have that amendment reversed, but until then suck it, accept the will of the people and move on.

What do you think is happening since 2004....even the last Minister for Justice had to intervene in cases to stop absurd deportations, hardly a sign that the crude system that McDowell cynically camapigned fro works...change is coming, get used to it.

MFPM

Donald Trump wrote: »

"Professor" is different. You might refer to a person in a public setting as a professor to show that they hold that particular role.



Show me where they refer to themselves as "professor". There will of course be the odd pretentious fucker who likes to call themselves "Dr.".


I don't think that you know very much about academia.



Your attitude seems to be "must protect the black lady at all cost to show I'm not a racist regardless of how much of a racist she is herself, or how much of a nutcase she shows herself to be"

You are determined to shift the goal posts continually, aren't you?

"Professor" is different.

How is it different?

You might refer to a person in a public setting as a professor to show that they hold that particular role.

And you don't think that happens with Dr? You are aware that all professors in Ireland start as 'Dr' and then some promote up to different levels of professor.

Show me where they refer to themselves as "professor". There will of course be the odd pretentious fucker who likes to call themselves "Dr.".

Go to Twitter, type in DR and see what happens, then type Prof and see what happens....it's like magic, you'll find lists of academics referring to themselves as Dr and Prof!!!

I don't think that you know very much about academia.

Oh believe me, I know plenty about academia and I dare say I know a hell of a lot more about it than you do judging my the ignorance on display in your post.

Your attitude seems to be "must protect the black lady at all cost to show I'm not a racist regardless of how much of a racist she is herself, or how much of a nutcase she shows herself to be"

Who exactly are you quoting here? You are aware when and how you use quotation marks?

I'm not defending anyone, I'm correcting incorrect information you're putting out precisely because you have a prejudical attitude to the woman in question.

I suppose at least the woman in question is public in her dealings and is dealing with the abuse directed at her head on, you are slagging her off in an appalling manner from the safety of anonymity, her bravery (irrespective of whether you agree or disagree with here take on issues) is in stark contrast to your cowardice.

Donald Trump

MFPM wrote: »

I suppose at least the woman in question is public in her dealings and is dealing with the abuse directed at her head on, you are slagging her off in an appalling manner from the safety of anonymity, her bravery (irrespective of whether you agree or disagree with here take on issues) is in stark contrast to your cowardice.

Nobody would know who that lady is if she wasn't abusing her hosts by screaming racism and oppression from the platform generously gifted to her.



If the claims made earlier on the thread are true, one might attribute "a neck like a jockey's bollix" rather than bravery.


Lets me ask you a "hypothetical" question. Were it to be true that a person lied and submitted a false asylum claim declaration in order to get them in the door for long enough to have an anchor baby and then proceed to be maintained at the cost to the state while she was gifted full time education, well would it diminish your otherwise held opinion of them? Lecturing their hosts about exploitation when she herself was the exploitative one?


(That's not even considering that that person's family may have made their money from the slave trade in the relatively recent past)


The statues need to be replaced. Simple as that. And the hotel owners need to be fined.

Donald Trump

MFPM wrote: »

Oh believe me, I know plenty about academia and I dare say I know a hell of a lot more about it than you do judging my the ignorance on display in your post.

Do enlighten us then of your experience in academia.


Do you highlight your own doctorate in your Linkedin title? Do you introduce yourself as Dr. MFPM?

SoupMonster

Donald Trump wrote: »

(That's not even considering that that person's family may have made their money from the slave trade in the relatively recent past)

I once met a Nigerian girl that would be legally classified as in indentured servitude or what's sometimes called modern day slavery, a sex trafficking victim. A real actual slave, not just an artistic depiction of a possible slave

What evidence does anyone offer that Joseph's family is involved in the criminal activity of enslaving woman and girls, apart from "She has family in Benin/Edo/whatever"?

If there is real evidence, send it to the police.

RandomName2

Donald Trump wrote: »

Nobody would know who that lady is if she wasn't abusing her hosts by screaming racism and oppression from the platform generously gifted to her.

Her only characteristic which grants her the capacity to obtain work is her being a person of color.

To be fair she uses some statistics in her PhD (were you aware what she actually has a doctorate?), but seeing that it suffers from significant logical fallacies throughout (chief of which is bias confirmation) I don't think that that carries much weight.

Donald Trump wrote: »

The statues need to be replaced. Simple as that. And the hotel owners need to be fined.

It would be a good lesson to American corporations that they cannot think themselves above Irish planning laws.

Donald Trump

SoupMonster wrote: »

I once met a Nigerian girl that would be legally classified as in indentured servitude or what's sometimes called modern day slavery, a sex trafficking victim. A real actual slave, not just an artistic depiction of a possible slave

What evidence does anyone offer that Joseph's family is involved in the criminal activity of enslaving woman and girls, apart from "She has family in Benin/Edo/whatever"?

If there is real evidence, send it to the police.

I didn't see anything that stated that her family are involved in it today. Just that they are from the ruling class and the ruling classes generally gained their wealth and status through that trade.


What should we do? Send the police some proof that her family bought and sold some slaves 100 years ago? Back when it was commonplace in the region

Donald Trump

RandomName2 wrote: »

(were you aware what she actually has a doctorate?),

It's from UCD I think......par for the course and nothing really to write home about












Edit: That was merely a joke against UCD. Not against any individual. I got told off for it so I presume some eejits reported it. No need to get upset over it.

MFPM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Nobody would know who that lady is if she wasn't abusing her hosts by screaming racism and oppression from the platform generously gifted to her.



If the claims made earlier on the thread are true, one might attribute "a neck like a jockey's bollix" rather than bravery.


Lets me ask you a "hypothetical" question. Were it to be true that a person lied and submitted a false asylum claim declaration in order to get them in the door for long enough to have an anchor baby and then proceed to be maintained at the cost to the state while she was gifted full time education, well would it diminish your otherwise held opinion of them? Lecturing their hosts about exploitation when she herself was the exploitative one?


(That's not even considering that that person's family may have made their money from the slave trade in the relatively recent past)


The statues need to be replaced. Simple as that. And the hotel owners need to be fined.

platform generously gifted to her.

Once more illustrating your ignorance about academia. Again, at least she puts stuff out there in here own name, not hiding cowardly behind anonymity like you.

If the claims made earlier on the thread are true, one might attribute "a neck like a jockey's bollix" rather than bravery.

'If' being the important word but don't let that stop you. Secondly, isn't it interesting that you take no issue with or question that people spewing abuse at her...it's seems your critical faculties only operate in one direction.

Lets me ask you a "hypothetical" question. Were it to be true that a person lied and submitted a false asylum claim declaration in order to get them in the door for long enough to have an anchor baby and then proceed to be maintained at the cost to the state while she was gifted full time education, well would it diminish your otherwise held opinion of them? Lecturing their hosts about exploitation when she herself was the exploitative one?

Let's park your disgusting, offensive and racist language 'anchor baby' for the moment, Ireland is one of the hardest places in the world in which to claim asylum, 90% of applications are rejected so your thesis is highly unilikely I'd suggest, unles you've hard evidence to suggest otherwise.

If you knew anything about a Phd, you'd know they are far from gifted (excpet the honorray variety which are irrelevant) people work blood hard for them.

(That's not even considering that that person's family may have made their money from the slave trade in the relatively recent past)

You really are sinking lower and lower, aren't you?

The statues need to be replaced. Simple as that. And the hotel owners need to be fined.

That's a matter for the planning authorities, your opinion on the matter is utterly irrelevant to what will happen.

MFPM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Do enlighten us then of your experience in academia.


Do you highlight your own doctorate in your Linkedin title? Do you introduce yourself as Dr. MFPM?

I've no need to enlighten you or anyone else about my academic credentials, I have demonstrated clearly that I know more about the matter than the nonsense you've been posting.

Now, do yourself and everyone here a favour by ditching the barely concealed racism and cop on.

Mad_maxx

MFPM wrote: »

You're another of the crew here who are alleging she doesn't have a PhD?

I've no doubt she's earned one of those grievance studies degrees

Beasty

Donald Trump wrote: »

It's from UCD I think......par for the course and nothing really to write home about

Like your namesake you seem to thrive on dismissing people who know something about a topic

I would suggest you back off on such comments as next time it will be more than a friendly nudge

Yellow_Fern

I had a gawk there my contacts with PhDs on LinkedIn and in a very unrepresentative sample of about 150, I saw only one using with Dr. in front and one with PhD. after. Plus one medical doctor with the Dr. in front. So not common, though I don't check in the field of critical race theory.

markodaly

MFPM wrote: »

Well, the people who voted 'yes' obviously. However are you seriously suggesting that because a majority of people vote for something that it's automatically 'right', seriously?

Yes it does actually. That is the nature of democracy we have in Ireland.

What do you think is happening since 2004....even the last Minister for Justice had to intervene in cases to stop absurd deportations, hardly a sign that the crude system that McDowell cynically camapigned fro works...change is coming, get used to it.

Oh OK, so what is the proposed legislation change here to the constitution?

If anything, attitudes have harden since that vote, so good luck if reversing that.

Yellow_Fern

MFPM wrote: »

What do you think is happening since 2004....even the last Minister for Justice had to intervene in cases to stop absurd deportations, hardly a sign that the crude system that McDowell cynically camapigned fro works...change is coming, get used to it.

First of all why on earth would you refer to the constitution when the constitution never requires deportations, secondly all countries have use deportation and there are always hard cases. It does not matter whether it is Sweden or Andora you will always find difficult cases.

Donald Trump

MFPM wrote: »

Once more illustrating your ignorance about academia. Again, at least she puts stuff out there in here own name, not hiding cowardly behind anonymity like you.



'If' being the important word but don't let that stop you. Secondly, isn't it interesting that you take no issue with or question that people spewing abuse at her...it's seems your critical faculties only operate in one direction.



Let's park your disgusting, offensive and racist language 'anchor baby' for the moment, Ireland is one of the hardest places in the world in which to claim asylum, 90% of applications are rejected so your thesis is highly unilikely I'd suggest, unles you've hard evidence to suggest otherwise.

If you knew anything about a Phd, you'd know they are far from gifted (excpet the honorray variety which are irrelevant) people work blood hard for them.



You really are sinking lower and lower, aren't you?



That's a matter for the planning authorities, your opinion on the matter is utterly irrelevant to what will happen.

Hi genius. The platform that is being gifted to her is being continually allowed on the national airwaves without any hint of a challenge. Somehow it would probably be racist to suggest a different actual peer-regarded academic or expert, who was also "black" to replace her. A PhD is not a "platform".


While you are correct that 90% of applications were shown to be bogus and rejected, there is not a high bar to submitting one. Once it is submitted, then it has to be processed and that takes a bit of time. It was quite common for those who obtained residency via another route - marriage to an Irish person or Irish born child, to withdraw their asylum application before it reached its conclusion.



Given a hypothetical scenario that a foreign person arrived here and was allowed to stay pre-citizenship referendum there are a number of possibilities that I can think of. Feel free to add more if you can think of them.

1) She was Irish born or had Irish parents and so had a passport
2) She gained a visa by marrying an Irish citizen before moving here with him and staying married for 3+ years after that.
3) She had other EU citizenship which allowed her to move here
4) She came on a visa to work here
5) Her husband had a visa to work and she came with him
6) She had come from an unsafe part of the world such as a warzone, her life was under genuine threat and she applied for and was granted asylum
7) She stepped off a plane, pregnant, committed fraud and filled out a bogus application in order to be able to remain until she gave birth.



Given the above hypothetical scenario, it is a simple question to you to ask whether, if there was a person who was lecturing you about exploitation and morals was in category 7, would you think less of them? That you don't want to answer it is telling.




A Honorary PhD is actually the same degree as a "regular" one is.


You were going on about your knowledge of "academia" and then when called out on it, refuse to list your own experience. And then try to shut down the question by implying it is racist......I just called you out on your claim that you are somehow an expert on academia. It's simple to list off some of your qualifications here. But you shout about things and when called to put your cards on the table you scream "racist" :pac: . Everyone else on the thread who commented on the use of the title "Dr" in general public has agreed with me. Can you not take that as some evidence that you are just wrong?



A protected structure was altered. That is illegal. That is not my "opinion".


Stay tuned until next week, when eminent Irish historian Dr. Ebun Joseph, calls for the removal of the Molly Malone statue for clearly representing a lady in blackface. Any Irish person trying to point out a different opinion (i.e. actual fact) can be dismissed as a simply a person of "white privilege" who is not entitled to comment on blackface.


What is your connection to her? Do you know her personally? If you know her personally we can stop asking you questions in case it is annoying you

CrankyHaus

markodaly wrote: »

Oh OK, so what is the proposed legislation change here to the constitution?

If anything, attitudes have harden since that vote, so good luck if reversing that.

I'd look at it another way.


Use years of biased media messaging on the topic to shape public opinion. This started long ago.


Lobby all the major parties to obtain their support in advance and thus push opposing positions outside the Overton Window of acceptable thought. Again this has been going on for years already.


Use Hate Speech laws and public shaming to intimidate dissenting views into silence. You can see the attitude that will drive this in plenty of posters comments here on Boards.



Kick the matter into a "randomly chosen" (Hohoho) Citizens Assembly that can be influenced by the information provided to it, which will then recommend a Referendum with an imprimatur of urgent neccessity attached to it.



Job Done, possibly.

Or maybe people will react negatively to being treated like fools and it will simply provide oxygen to the currently tiny far-right here, and ultimately replicate the divisive culture wars that are tearing the US and Britain apart.

RandomName2

There's a very good, even-handed piece written in the Irish Times about the whole fiasco.


https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/shelbourne-statues-will-we-ever-see-them-on-st-stephen-s-green-again-1.4317789

the standard of the “debate” conducted mostly on social media over the past few days has been predictably low, with two camps rapidly forming and engaging in trench warfare. One lot blames ahistorical wokeness and corporate fear of cancel culture for the decision. The other claims this country’s own complicity in racist oppression and Irish blindness to white privilege makes such actions inevitable and necessary. Amid the cacophony, the original artworks fade quickly into the background.

Donald Trump wrote: »

Hi genius.

He is being difficult for the sake of it, by definition it is impossible to convince him. It becomes a game of having-the-last-word.

When the area is something that can not be 100% proven (such as the fact that academics don't usually call themselves Dr. at every opportunity, a principle that is usually reserved for media pundits like Dr. Phil) then it's always going to go around in circles.

By hanging onto a racist like Ebun he can be reassured that he will get a reaction, though unlike the person he is championing, he only intimates that the criticism in this thread is racist in nature. Of course he couldn't actually adopt her philosophy without equivocation, because were he to do so, if he is white, he would have to refrain from talking about a subject that whites are supposed to not discuss.

ThunbergsAreGo

RandomName2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/EbunJoseph1/status/1289168558262374402

I find her need to divide everything based on race very very racist and divisive.

ThunbergsAreGo

Gen.Zhukov wrote: »

I'd be very interested to know why the eminent doctor, who seems to insist that she is referred to as Doctor, decided/was advised to drop the Dr from her recent novel.

I would like to know who chose that font/typography :eek:

RandomName2

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

I would like to know who chose that font/typography :eek:

Someone with non-dyslexic semiotic privilege.

Be right back

And why she had to go to the UK in order to get it published?!

Yellow_Fern

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

I would like to know who chose that font/typography :eek:

Well she is a deconstructionist. Deconstruction is her game

Be right back wrote: »

And why she had to go to the UK in order to get it published?!

In fairness this is commonplace. The UK has better choice in publishers. Its an academic book. Will have a very small run. I don't think she would make any money from it.

Wibbs

I like the cover myself as it happens.

TheBlackPill

EVerybody on this thread should look up critical race theory. It offers absolutely no solutions, just a hierarchy of victimhood, and seeks to find offence even when there is none.

o1s1n

Wibbs wrote: »

I like the cover myself as it happens.

There's actually a fee you need to pay for enjoying the cover, an invoice will be along in the post to you shortly.

KevRossi

She posted this about 5 weeks ago; that's when I lost interest in her. She believes that racism was invented by Europeans to subjugate Africans. Racism exists in every culture and in every ethnic group, in my experience. The idea that one group of people is superior to another existed for thousands of years in Africa before any European ever got there.

She's deluded, shouting so she can be heard to make herself relevant . I just hope the black & African community in Ireland can get some other spokespeople as she will do long term damage to their cause. Racism is an issue here, bu tit needs to be discussed soberly.

https://twitter.com/EbunJoseph1/status/1276842850899156993