Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Headshot

J Mysterio wrote: »

Kate Hoey... Peerage.

I just can't.

It's just all that's wrong with politics at the moment. It's no wonder so many people are disenfranchised with the political system.

Gerry T

Sam Russell wrote:

I think you should look back at my earlier posts. Or even re-read the post you are quoting. Can you not see the tone of it?

Yea I should know better, have been following this from the start, missed the tone.

Hermy

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think that the difference between 'gold plated' and 'solid gold' should alert the dimmest to who has the greatest amount wrested from the public purse.

As I implied, the British press and media cannot even spell 'corruption', and the Tories know it.

I hope you're not suggesting I'm among the dimmest - I try my best to keep up.

It was the first line about Brussels that had me doing a double take.

looksee

Have to say the difference between 'gold plated' and 'solid gold' was a bit subtle for me too . There again, I would not claim to be the most astute student of politics, though I do try to keep up!

Sam Russell

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

They wasted £11.8 million on a Covid app that was cancelled long after they were told it was a dead duck due to things like privacy issues.

A working Covid app costs £11m less, and that includes releasing the source the code.


NHSX, the health service technology unit responsible for the government’s failed contact-tracing app, attempted to block rival apps to protect its own, hampering efforts to track the early spread of the coronavirus



But that's all chicken feed compared to
Coronavirus: Government has set aside £10bn for test and trace system for England

Lets be clear, the companies lining up for this money have a dismal track record. Their previous track records have included data leaks, failures/fraud and death.
Luckily they remembered to donate to the party.


Brexit will mean the UK can make up rules as it goes along instead of having to adhere to EU standards. The huge one will be when the EU starts closing off the tax loopholes of the UK protectorates.

Yes, there is plenty of evidence of corrupt practices going on in the UK/Tory Government.

Now, here is the question - Why is no one crying STOP.

When Covid started, there was a global rush for ventilators, and fortunately for us, 50% of world supply are/were made in Ireland.

So the UK tried to get one made locally and enlisted the assistance of Dyson - a well known maker of ventilators vacuum cleaners. They awarded them a huge contract to develop one, but refused to get GoPro, another vacuum cleaner manufacturer, to try their hand at making a ventilator despite them having similar expertise. [Dyson is a heavy donor to the Tories, which GoPro is not.

Now the chances of any company producing a safe, and certified, ventilator within a couple of years is minuscule to zero, but the chances of a Tory donor getting a lucrative contract from the Gov is huge, even when their experience is minuscule, and their chance of success is zero.

For example, if they wanted to give a ferry contract to a ferry company, you would think that they would check that the ferry company did in fact own a ferry or two. You would also check the companies office to see how long they had been operating and how successful they had been in the previous five years - just to make sure they were not a shelf company that had never traded and had copied their terms and conditions from a pizza delivery company.

You would think that, but you would be wrong. Why did they spend £11.8 million on a contact tracing app that did not work when we spent €800k on one that does?

Where are the journalists?

Brexit is getting closer, and the problems are already starting. Even without corruption, they are in trouble, but with it, lives will be lost.

Sam Russell

Hermy wrote: »

I hope you're not suggesting I'm among the dimmest - I try my best to keep up.

It was the first line about Brussels that had me doing a double take.

I was using the Brexit speak - in London, the sherpas (those who do the detailed work) are called 'Loyal Civil Servants', but the Brexiteers refer the the Brussels equivalent as 'Unelected Bureaucrats'.

looksee wrote: »

Have to say the difference between 'gold plated' and 'solid gold' was a bit subtle for me too . There again, I would not claim to be the most astute student of politics, though I do try to keep up!

Just be careful when buying jewellery.

CelticRambler

Brexit prompts refugee-level immigration ... of Brits, to the EU! Two interpretations of the same report:

From the Guardian: Brexit fuels brain drain as skilled Britons head to the EU

the study found that UK migrants are among the most educated and skilled of those from any nation, with one of the highest net average income rates, suggesting that Brexit has begun a steady drain of the most talented and productive people to the continent.

The authors, in an academic guest blog: More Britons willing to leave UK to escape Brexit uncertainty

While the legal consequences of Brexit remain so uncertain, people ... are making serious sacrifices and taking often big risks to do whatever they can to mitigate the pending impact of Brexit on their lives.

The Guardian article concludes with this bitter-sweet quote, particularly ironic in the context of one particular Brexiter bogeyman:

Co-author Daniel Tetlow added: “We’re observing a new social migration phenomenon and a redefining of what it means to be British-European. In 2019, Brits came in just behind Turks in numbers receiving German citizenship

ambro25

That brain drain was always going to ramp up once Brexit became irreversible, and never less so than once British politics went full-on Trumpian from last December.

I remember long and fastidious arguments about this anticipated Brexit consequence, with 'Project Fear'-touting Brexit supporters, both online and IRL before the 2016 referendum.

For the population segment concerned (tertiary-educated, in-demand skill-set, centrist politics), Brexit would be bringing socio-economic changes and closing too many opportunities on the negative side of the life equation, to outweigh any positives which Brexit might provide to entice them to stay in the UK.

After Covid, that population segment has now seen that the Brexit-pushing governance is killing people in their tens of thousands.

Sam Russell

ambro25 wrote: »

That brain drain was always going to ramp up once Brexit became irreversible, and never less so than once British politics went full-on Trumpian from last December.

I remember long and fastidious arguments about this anticipated Brexit consequence, with 'Project Fear'-touting Brexit supporters, both online and IRL before the 2016 referendum.

For the population segment concerned (tertiary-educated, in-demand skill-set, centrist politics), Brexit would be bringing socio-economic changes and closing too many opportunities on the negative side of the life equation, to outweigh any positives which Brexit might provide to entice them to stay in the UK.

After Covid, that population segment has now seen that the Brexit-pushing governance is killing people in their tens of thousands.

Also, time is running out.

The rules may change irrevocably on 1st Jan 2001. Qualifications may no longer be recognised, current employment may disappear, etc.

ancapailldorcha

Sam Russell wrote: »

Also, time is running out.

The rules may change irrevocably on 1st Jan 2001. Qualifications may no longer be recognised, current employment may disappear, etc.

I would have thought that it was already too late, no? Not even qualifications-wise but Britain is no longer in the EU. Surely, European employers wouldn't want to risk hiring people that may not have legal right to live and work in the EU27 come January.

Sam Russell

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I would have thought that it was already too late, no? Not even qualifications-wise but Britain is no longer in the EU. Surely, European employers wouldn't want to risk hiring people that may not have legal right to live and work in the EU27 come January.

Probably, but the report was of Brits getting German passports, so they would have the right to work. Not sure about qualifications though.

CelticRambler

Every country has some kind of qualifications review board that has the power to recognise/validate qualifications earned outside of their jurisdiction. Sometimes that means just sitting a complementary exam, sometimes engaging in "top-up" training. I would think that any Brit with EU citizenship and a degree from the Before Times would have their qualification recognised as equivalent on the grounds that it was at the time it was awarded ... once they'd paid the #TakeBackControl fee, of course.

Sam Russell

CelticRambler wrote: »

Every country has some kind of qualifications review board that has the power to recognise/validate qualifications earned outside of their jurisdiction. Sometimes that means just sitting a complementary exam, sometimes engaging in "top-up" training. I would think that any Brit with EU citizenship and a degree from the Before Times would have their qualification recognised as equivalent on the grounds that it was at the time it was awarded ... once they'd paid the #TakeBackControl fee, of course.

I think there maybe non-tariff barriers erected - like the requirement for Irish here for primary school teachers. It will become apparent on New Years Day and thereafter.

reslfj

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I would have thought that it was already too late, no? Not even qualifications-wise but Britain is no longer in the EU. Surely, European employers wouldn't want to risk hiring people that may not have legal right to live and work in the EU27 come January.

The WA has been ratified.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:C:2019:384I:FULL&from=EN

Article 10
Personal scope
1. Without prejudice to Title III, this Part shall apply to the following persons:
...
(b) United Kingdom nationals who exercised their right to reside in a Member State in accordance with Union law before the end of the transition period and continue to reside there thereafter;
....
....
2. Persons falling under points (a) and (b) of Article 3(2) of Directive 2004/38/EC whose residence was facilitated by the host State in accordance with its national legislation before the end of the transition period in accordance with Article 3(2) of that Directive shall retain their right of residence in the host State in accordance with this Part, provided that they continue to reside in the host State thereafter.

I think the key words here are: "before the end of the the transition period", "retain their right of residence" and "provided that they continue to reside in the host State thereafter."

As I understand the text: FoM will not continue, and the UK citizen must stay/work in the same chosen EU27 country after Jan 2021.
But their rights within that EU27 country will continue.

Lars

Force Majeure will be invoked in many of these circumstances, to stop the wheels coming off.
For example today there are many thousands of cars driving without NCT certificates due to the closure of the NCT testing facilities, the same will happen to the recognition of qualifications etc.

Otherwise there will be chaos, and who want's that!

Peregrinus

Deleted User wrote: »

Force Majeure will be invoked in many of these circumstances, to stop the wheels coming off.
For example today there are many thousands of cars driving without NCT certificates due to the closure of the NCT testing facilities, the same will happen to the recognition of qualifications etc.

Otherwise there will be chaos, and who want's that!

It's not really the same situation. It's simply impossible to get an NCT inspection when the inspection centres are not operating. But it's perfectly possible, if troublesome and expensive, for a person with non-EU qualifications to get them recognised and validated for use in the EU, and people in this sitatuion will have had more than a year's notice of the need to do this.

Nearly a year ago, the EU published details of the temporary accommodations it would make in the event of a no-deal Brexit. I'd suggest that's a pretty good indicator of the (maximum) temporary accommodations that it will make if the UK exits transition without a deal. Anything that isn't covered off in the Withdrawal Agreement, and that wouldn't have been covered off under the no-deal notices, you should assume will be a problem. There's no doctrine of force majeure in Irish law, and in EU law its a very limited concept which doesn't cover this situation.

Capt'n Midnight

reslfj wrote: »

As I understand the text: FoM will not continue, and the UK citizen must stay/work in the same chosen EU27 country after Jan 2021.
But their rights within that EU27 country will continue.

Lars

I'd see it that way too.

It's been pointed before that places like Germany don't allow dual citizenship. And as non-EU movement is controlled by each country that will mean a UK citizen living in Germany will need a visa just to visit the neighbouring country for holiday.

Spain is similar, dual citizenship is more or less limited to citizens of Spanish speaking countries.

And it's important because if you have to hand over UK citizenship you'll need a visa to go back home. And getting your UK citizenship ain't cheap or even certain.

ambro25

Sam Russell wrote: »

Also, time is running out.

The rules may change irrevocably on 1st Jan 2001. Qualifications may no longer be recognised, current employment may disappear, etc.

Time running out is indeed an accelerating factor. But it won't be appreciated by many, until stats begin to show it, expectedly sometime in 2021.

Qualifications will no longer be *automatically* recognised under the long & well-established EU/EEA principles. As CelticRambler pointed out, EU27 member states usually have their own internal statutes, rules, review boards, etc. for determining equivalence of 3rd party country qualifications, and there is a reasonable chance that hitherto-recognised UK qualifications, deemed EU-grade for some decades, would continue to be recognised without too much hassle...

...but then, subject to this Brexit-introduced concept of *reciprocity* of course

And in that respect, at least some in the UK are finally waking up to the situation and looking to erect self-preserving professional walls where, historically, there were none. The UKIPO just started consultations last week, about the removal of 'EEA' in some patent & trademark statutes and, importantly, the ramifications of same on EU27 firms and attorneys, particularly their capacity to continue acting as address for service at the UKIPO.

Not unexpected at all (after all, the EUIPO is kicking all Brits out on 1.1.21; I expect that so will the Irish patent office under Sections 107 & 108 Irish Patents Act 1992 as amended by SI 579). But maybe indicative of where that particular debate/issue is going.

ambro25

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I would have thought that it was already too late, no? Not even qualifications-wise but Britain is no longer in the EU. Surely, European employers wouldn't want to risk hiring people that may not have legal right to live and work in the EU27 come January.

European (-27) employers haven't been too keen on Brit applicants since Article 50 was invoked.

This has been well-documented in several mainstream articles since 2017 (mostly in the Guardian, unsurprisingly), and a plethora of personal testimonies collated by pro-Remain 'expats' lobby groups like The3Million, BritsInEU, etc. besides testimonial projects like the InLimbo / InLimboToo group.

My wife has experienced it in the past couple of years, and some of our acquaintances amongst the network of school parents also have.

ancapailldorcha

ambro25 wrote: »

European (-27) employers haven't been too keen on Brit applicants since Article 50 was invoked.

This has been well-documented in several mainstream articles since 2017 (mostly in the Guardian, unsurprisingly), and a plethora of personal testimonies collated by pro-Remain 'expats' lobby groups like The3Million, BritsInEU, etc. besides testimonial projects like the InLimbo / InLimboToo group.

My wife has experienced it in the past couple of years, and some of our acquaintances amongst the network of school parents also have.

My understanding, and I'm open to correction as has happened above is that until the end of the year, as things currently stand any UK citizen can simply move to the EU with or without a job pre-arranged and have indefinite right to live, work and otherwise remain there.

Presumably, the reulctance to hire British people you describe above is down to the uncertainty over the Anglo-European negotiations and the lack of reason to take heart in them. It doesn't make a great deal of sense to me for employers to be reluctant to hire skilled Brits if they can move to the continent before the end of December.

I personally wouldn't have thought that there'd be much room in Europe for non-native speakers to be honest. I work in science and the likes of the EMBO laboratories in Heidelberg would be a viable option with my skillset but that's quite niche.

CelticRambler

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And as non-EU movement is controlled by each country that will mean a UK citizen living in Germany will need a visa just to visit the neighbouring country for holiday.

...

And it's important because if you have to hand over UK citizenship you'll need a visa to go back home. And getting your UK citizenship ain't cheap or even certain.

This is what will, slowly but surely, cause pennies to drop in the minds of the Flag of St. George Brexit Brigade - because they do travel, and thanks to Ryanair & EasyJet, they travel a lot. My social circle brings me into frequent contact with non-Schengen, non-EU globetrotters of the back-pack variety, and they are always acutely aware of their 90-day visa(-exemption) limit. Should there be no reciprocity on travel, I think it'll take three to five years for the average Brit to get into that frame of mind. Now if you've booked two weeks on an island such as Ibiza, Fuerteventura or Cyprus, it won't really matter, but if you fancy taking your campervan through France and Belgium to the Netherlands, or flying Ryanair into Bratislava for a weekend in Vienna, that's when potential problems might arise ... probably when you go to the police station to report a stolen wallet. :rolleyes:

fly_agaric

Raking over history now but saw this article today:

DUP’s Brexit ads: Who bankrolled the secretive £435,000 campaign?

Kind of incredible to me that (according to this article) 4 years on it is a mystery where that money came from.
SNIP. No insults please. doubt very much they really gave a shít about Brexit itself to be honest [when they agreed to handle that money].

reslfj

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I'd see it that way too.

... And as non-EU movement is controlled by each country that will mean a UK citizen living in Germany will need a visa just to visit the neighbouring country for holiday.

Spain is similar,...

I believe you should distinguish between 'Right to stay and work' and travelling across EU internal borders.

The first was FoM and is now part of the WA, while crossing borders (90 days in every 180) is Schengen and not FoM (passport for entry into non Schengen EU27 countries for UK and everyone else).

UK citizens with WA based rights to stay/work in a Schengen country will - I'm sure - be able to travel freely within all of Schengen (for 90 days) and will be allowed to enter the non Schengen EU27 member state (again for 90 days) too.

Lars

PS! The CTA is a story for another day.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Off topic post deleted.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Don't question mod warnings on thread please. You're welcome to start a new thread. Post deleted.

ambro25

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

My understanding, and I'm open to correction as has happened above is that until the end of the year, as things currently stand any UK citizen can simply move to the EU with or without a job pre-arranged and have indefinite right to live, work and otherwise remain there.

Presumably, the reulctance to hire British people you describe above is down to the uncertainty over the Anglo-European negotiations and the lack of reason to take heart in them. It doesn't make a great deal of sense to me for employers to be reluctant to hire skilled Brits if they can move to the continent before the end of December.

I personally wouldn't have thought that there'd be much room in Europe for non-native speakers to be honest. I work in science and the likes of the EMBO laboratories in Heidelberg would be a viable option with my skillset but that's quite niche.

In very many continental EU member states, that indefiniteness of the right to remain is actually very finite: it stops once an EU immigrant stops being able to support themselves, and states do remove lots every year.

The biggest issue with hiring skilled Brits, is for those continental jobs that rely upon FoM for performance. Which is going to be the vast majority of executive roles.

There is, as yet, no guarantee of FoM-like prerogatives that will be maintained for Brits already in the EU27, never mind moving here by 31.12.20. A non-trivial issue for cross-border British workers living eg in France, Germany or Belgium, and working in Luxembourg (the same issue befalls Brits & Spaniards living in Spain and working in Gibraltar, and I’m sure there’s plenty more) [an issue which Captain Midnight raised earlier].

There are plenty of jobs available for English-only speakers in the European STEM/trading hubs (here in Lux, Berlin & Frankfurt un Germany, Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam...). Few Brits get a look in, either because employers aren’t clued up enough and simply see “risks with a price tag” whenever a Brit CV crosses their desk...or more frequently, it’s simply a pragmatic approach: with other EU27 applicants for the same job, that are equally capable but exhibit zero risk in comparable terms (right of residence, work, geographical freedom of tasking), why bother with the Brit?

LeinsterDub

https://twitter.com/MPIainDS/status/1290292767852118016


And of course by 'Buried in the fine print, unnoticed by many' he means there in black and white but he failed to read it .

The Raging Bile Duct

SNIP. Enough of the name calling please.

serfboard

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And of course by 'Buried in the fine print, unnoticed by many' he means there in black and white but he failed to read it .

Ah yes, the "unfair" Withdrawl Agreement that the Tories agreed to, signed and voted on, but never bothered to read.

The Yanks will go to town on them, if that's how they carry on.

Capt'n Midnight

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

...

The ONLY reason he's still an MP is that the Lib Dems ran a candidate that barely kept the deposit and spoilt it for Labour