Mass exodus to Dairying !!!

cosatron

richie123 wrote: »

Yes the bps certainly helped build those sheds and buy all this new tractors ..
Strip out bps and or off farm income and money just wouldn't be there to make such purchases.

ha your a gas ticket richie. So for the last 30 years only for bps and off farm income the beef farmers would be well off on the dole

wrangler

richie123 wrote: »

Yes of course it matters.that money is reducing every year.your your heavily reliant on outsiders deciding what your income will be ...it does matter that nearly 50 %of a famers money is basically a glorified dole payment.

It has worked for the last thirty years, I won't worry too much after that,
A lot of countries subsidise their agriculture, The public here wouldn't tolerate NZ farming systems, It really sickened me, that's what subsidy free farming is like.
A reduced subsidy CAP would force more down the dairy route, reduce the calf market, increase calf slaughter, reduce milk price, China are revving up milk production already.
Even looking around the country at the moment there's a lot of good land all but abandoned already,

Aska

Gods Gift wrote: »

You could have rented it for 10 yrs tax free instead of looking at cows tits for the rest of your days.

Did that and it was the worst of my many mistakes in my life todate, only 5 years into currently, Listened to the wrong people (and made my own decisions too).

USC nabs you don't forget re: the tax free bit

richie123

cosatron wrote: »

ha your a gas ticket richie. So for the last 30 years only for bps and off farm income the beef farmers would be well off on the dole

they certainly weren't built out of profits from beef!

richie123

wrangler wrote: »

It has worked for the last thirty years, I won't worry too much after that,
A lot of countries subsidise their agriculture, The public here wouldn't tolerate NZ farming systems, It really sickened me, that's what subsidy free farming is like.
A reduced subsidy CAP would force more down the dairy route, reduce the calf market, increase calf slaughter, reduce milk price, China are revving up milk production already.
Even looking around the country at the moment there's a lot of good land all but abandoned already,

How can you say it worked and then in the same breath say land is being abandoned around the country.

wrangler

richie123 wrote: »

How can you say it worked and then in the same breath say land is being abandoned around the country.

Ah some Hobby farmers around here should be ashamed the way land is managed.
A neighbour pulled a fast one here buying land off a widow that was beside me, it's a terrible mess now, all weeds, it's not even aesthetically pleasing, also a builder bought land beside me at 50000/acre it's also a mess,
It's not sour grapes on my part because I was sick of farming by the time it came on the market.
That's the way that the whole country would look if it wasn't for subsidies, farmers are already on the hind tit as regards lifestyle, we'd be 50 years further back but for subsidies

carrollsno1

wrangler wrote: »

Ah some Hobby farmers around here should be ashamed the way land is managed.
A neighbour pulled a fast one here buying land off a widow that was beside me, it's a terrible mess now, all weeds, it's not even aesthetically pleasing, also a builder bought land beside me at 50000/acre it's also a mess,
It's not sour grapes on my part because I was sick of farming by the time it came on the market.
That's the way that the whole country would look if it wasn't for subsidies, farmers are already on the hind tit as regards lifestyle, we'd be 50 years further back but for subsidies

I reckon the reason places look like that is because of subsidies to be honest, cheque from the EU and lads reckon they dont have to work the land anymore. Holds up succession aswell, saw it firsthand in NZ where businesses were built and farms not inherited land was appreciated and every inch was utilised as best as they could.

richie123

wrangler wrote: »

Ah some Hobby farmers around here should be ashamed the way land is managed.
A neighbour pulled a fast one here buying land off a widow that was beside me, it's a terrible mess now, all weeds, it's not even aesthetically pleasing, also a builder bought land beside me at 50000/acre it's also a mess,
It's not sour grapes on my part because I was sick of farming by the time it came on the market.
That's the way that the whole country would look if it wasn't for subsidies, farmers are already on the hind tit as regards lifestyle, we'd be 50 years further back but for subsidies

That's true alright but go back to the 80s barley was making good money ...beef wasn't bad either sheep too. Your costs were a hell of a lot lower labour diesal fertilizer ect,no subsidies those years..where did it all go wrong ?

mf240

Will milk price collapse if everyone piles in.

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

Ah some Hobby farmers around here should be ashamed the way land is managed.
A neighbour pulled a fast one here buying land off a widow that was beside me, it's a terrible mess now, all weeds, it's not even aesthetically pleasing, also a builder bought land beside me at 50000/acre it's also a mess,
It's not sour grapes on my part because I was sick of farming by the time it came on the market.
That's the way that the whole country would look if it wasn't for subsidies, farmers are already on the hind tit as regards lifestyle, we'd be 50 years further back but for subsidies

That is a generalisation, you can say the same for some fulltime farmers. I have been into places buying cattle off full time and part time farmers. You come across exactly the same type in both fulltime and part time farmers.

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

That is a generalisation, you can say the same for some fulltime farmers. I have been into places buying cattle off full time and part time farmers. You come across exactly the same type in both fulltime and part time farmers.

How would it be classed as generalization in that I referred to some hobby farmers

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

How would it be classed as generalization in that I referred to some hobby farmers

But by the way you made it sound as if this issue was only with part time farmers and not an issue with fulltime farmers as well

20silkcut

mf240 wrote: »

Will milk price collapse if everyone piles in.

I’d say not. A few hundred or few thousand new entrants whatever it is in this country is not going to make a huge difference.
If we fall out with China ( not beyond the realms of possibility look what Boris Johnson done today) then the price will collapse. The Chinese are fuelling the current milk expansion. It’s not the soundest of foundations. But damn all we can do about that.

ruwithme

Some need to get over land maybe not looking top notch. few weeds, hedges not managed e.t.c. . I'm off the opinion there's alot of money spent on keeping farms looking pretty here and there and the money isn't coming from on farm income.

This has only ever being fooling our ownselves and never served us well from the point of being better paid for producing meat/milk.

Less pretty, just as much income i reckon anyway.

20silkcut

ruwithme wrote: »

Some need to get over land maybe not looking top notch. few weeds, hedges not managed e.t.c. . I'm off the opinion there's alot of money spent on keeping farms looking pretty here and there and the money isn't coming from on farm income.

This has only ever being fooling our ownselves and never served us well from the point of being better paid for producing meat/milk.

Less pretty, just as much income i reckon anyway.

I’d actually say if a farm is absolutely pristine.
It means two things.
1. The farmer is loaded and can employ lads to Spend their time doing maintenance jobs.
2. The farmer has loads of time on his hands to do the maintenance himself meaning much of his time is spent on uneconomic maintenance activity to make his place look good.
No busy farmer I know can get around to or prioritise aesthetic jobs bar the odd time. And a few months later it’s more than likely back to where it was anyway.

alps

mf240 wrote: »

Will milk price collapse if everyone piles in.

Milk price will not be the problem with everyone piling in....processing capacity will.

And there's a huge question to be answered on who's gonna pay for it.

Today we've seen Ornua change their price index to include higher costs due to expansion.

The guys that didn't expand gotbridden paying for the guys that did, and the guys that did are happy now and havnt a notion of paying for the new guys to come in...

Some people take pride in having the farm well kept though, we put a lot of time and money (though all farm, bps or tax write off against off farm income, the farm gets little or nothing im the form of tops ups from off farm income) into it at home and are happy to.

Couldn’t be facing into a badly kept place to be honest, hate seeing it even passing places.

Say my name

ruwithme wrote: »

Some need to get over land maybe not looking top notch. few weeds, hedges not managed e.t.c. . I'm off the opinion there's alot of money spent on keeping farms looking pretty here and there and the money isn't coming from on farm income.

This has only ever being fooling our ownselves and never served us well from the point of being better paid for producing meat/milk.

Less pretty, just as much income i reckon anyway.

It's a mindset that's changing.

If I look at a manicured farm. I see a farm with glyphosate soaking down into groundwater. Soil that's so fertilised with artificial fertilizer that life can't function. Nitrogen and phosphorus leaching into waterways. Hedges cut away and sprayed at the buts with no room for wildlife.
Land that even one thistle is not allowed grow to feed Goldfinch.
I see Desert. I form opinion of that farmer too. It's an opinion that non farming people increasingly hold too.

wrangler

ruwithme wrote: »

Some need to get over land maybe not looking top notch. few weeds, hedges not managed e.t.c. . I'm off the opinion there's alot of money spent on keeping farms looking pretty here and there and the money isn't coming from on farm income.

This has only ever being fooling our ownselves and never served us well from the point of being better paid for producing meat/milk.

Less pretty, just as much income i reckon anyway.

I don't know, but one place selling hay for years and not fertilising to the extent now that there's only weeds, it's stocked at 3 acre for every beast and cattle not thriving, They know it themselves as they're feeding meals to the cattle.
That's one place, the other two places only cut the grass every September for silage. they're all only about 20 acre blocks but they're all within 500mtrs of here and both sides of a main road, I tell you there's nothing scenic about them at the moment. There's plenty of room around here beside motorways for all the species if they want weeds

Buford T. Justice XIX

Say my name wrote: »

It's a mindset that's changing.

If I look at a manicured farm. I see a farm with glyphosate soaking down into groundwater. Soil that's so fertilised with artificial fertilizer that life can't function. Nitrogen and phosphorus leaching into waterways. Hedges cut away and sprayed at the buts with no room for wildlife.
Land that even one thistle is not allowed grow to feed Goldfinch.
I see Desert. I form opinion of that farmer too. It's an opinion that non farming people increasingly hold too.

Non farming people love seeing all sorts of wildlife on farms and then return to their own patch which is much further along the path to green desert than any farm I've ever been on.

Do as I say rather than do as I do?

wrangler

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Non farming people love seeing all sorts of wildlife on farms and then return to their own patch which is much further along the path to green desert than any farm I've ever been on.

Do as I say rather than do as I do?

+1
I have to say that I don't care about the thought of anyone, and non farmers in particular, on how I keep my farm.
It's those type of people that are responsible for the floods on the Shannon and there won't be any sign of them when families are losing their homes. dogooders or so they think

amacca

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Non farming people love seeing all sorts of wildlife on farms and then return to their own patch which is much further along the path to green desert than any farm I've ever been on.

Do as I say rather than do as I do?

And in some of their cases not seeing any problem with or connection too food either being sold at prices well below the cost of production or a fair percentage of that price being passed back to the farmer.

Siamsa Sessions

amacca wrote: »

And in some of their cases not seeing any problem with or connection too food either being sold at prices well below the cost of production or a fair percentage of that price being passed back to the farmer.

I want:
* cheap food
* a big TV
* the latest phone
* warm house (oil or gas, I don't care)
* throw-away clothes from Pennys
* subscription to Sky/Netflix/Spotify
* free wifi
* a gap year travelling

Oh, and wouldn't it be amazing if we had wolves in Ireland again (just not the part I live in)

But I don't want:

* modern farm methods
* workers exploited in China or India
* fossil fuels
* plastics
* politicians controlling and distracting us via social media
* other people going on sun holidays

Why can't people understand me???

(and it's not just millennials or snowflakes you hear talking like this)

Say my name

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Non farming people love seeing all sorts of wildlife on farms and then return to their own patch which is much further along the path to green desert than any farm I've ever been on.

Do as I say rather than do as I do?

Ah there's a few that see Onslo from keeping up appearances as a role model and let wildlife take its course on their patch. :pac: Thems the heroes.

We are seeing changing attitudes though.
Farmers are gradually trying their own way and trying to make life for all.
It's not one way or another but best of both worlds while still making a living.
The attitude of what will I kill today is gradually changing to how do I make more life today.

Sillycave

alps wrote: »

Milk price will not be the problem with everyone piling in....processing capacity will.

I would add “bobby” calves potential problem to that as well

farmertipp

Donald Trump wrote: »

I know of a fella who sold his land about 20 years ago and the story is that he used the money to buy "bargain" apartments in a non EU country.....and that whatever happened, either that the apartments weren't built or something dodgy was done or was not done right and he now has neither apartments nor land.

there is a client in west cork who relieved slot of farmers of their hard earned cash with polish property. so not unique

Buford T. Justice XIX

farmertipp wrote: »

there is a client in west cork who relieved slot of farmers of their hard earned cash with polish property. so not unique

That reminds me of the positive farmers conferences and they all sweating their assets to buy foreign property. There was a fair number of farmers sweating after the crash.

Are they still on the go? I haven't heard anything from them in a while.

jaymla627

wrangler wrote: »

It has worked for the last thirty years, I won't worry too much after that,
A lot of countries subsidise their agriculture, The public here wouldn't tolerate NZ farming systems, It really sickened me, that's what subsidy free farming is like.
A reduced subsidy CAP would force more down the dairy route, reduce the calf market, increase calf slaughter, reduce milk price, China are revving up milk production already.
Even looking around the country at the moment there's a lot of good land all but abandoned already,

China is probably the most expensive place on the planet to produce milk, you only have to look at the clusterf88k fonterra left themselves with when they tried it, dairying is the one farming enterprise that irish farmers can compete on a global commodity stage as we all nearly have access to freeland and family labour along with working huge hours ourselves beyond what any employee will do on your industrial scale mega dairy, have worked on a few large units when abroad for big farming companies and the money been lost due to employees simply not giving a f88k is astronomical, any savings made due to scale are quickly lost when you havent the quality labourforce to make the farm run smoothly

wrangler

jaymla627 wrote: »

China is probably the most expensive place on the planet to produce milk, you only have to look at the clusterf88k fonterra left themselves with when they tried it, dairying is the one farming enterprise that irish farmers can compete on a global commodity stage as we all nearly have access to freeland and family labour along with working huge hours ourselves beyond what any employee will do on your industrial scale mega dairy, have worked on a few large units when abroad for big farming companies and the money been lost due to employees simply not giving a f88k is astronomical, any savings made due to scale are quickly lost when you havent the quality labourforce to make the farm run smoothly

Why are they able to produce everything else cheaper, milking cows is no different than stitching trainers, mind numbing repetitive work.
China will produce their own milk if they can for their independence, they will eventually get it right, chinese are more prepared to work than any of the irish and will work cheaper than our family labour.... only a matter of time.

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

Why are they able to produce everything else cheaper, milking cows is no different than stitching trainers, mind numbing repetitive work.
China will produce their own milk if they can for their independence, they will eventually get it right, chinese are more prepared to work than any of the irish and will work cheaper than our family labour.... only a matter of time.

Probably but 1.4 million Chinese cannot be Wong. They cannot do everything. We already see that they have a huge issue with health issues in there food production. There baby formula production collapsed because of tampering with the the product

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal

They have issue with swine flu and avine flu in there production systems. They will always import some food. If they cannot sustain the most feed efficient animal production systems pigs and poultry they will have two difficulties with milk production inefficent conversion system and controling diseases and virus in huge indoor systems of milk production and in a country where at time anything goes