Intellectuals weigh in on Cancel Culture

Tired Gardener

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Washington Redskins just been cancelled.... they'll keep the name for now though



https://twitter.com/_JakeRussell/status/1282661676207218688

Hopefully it makes the rest of the NFL teams weigh up changing their Native American themed names/logos. Seems a bit insensitive to use names/logos that 'honour' an ethnic group that has been so persecuted.

This isn't 'cancel cultre', but showing a bit of respect.

excludedbin

Central and even Western European countries are happy to keep [mostly] silent about Russia only so long as Russia keeps supplying gas (and oil). Russian disinformation being spread so pervasively over the last number of years means no one in the West can really deny that Russia is a threat to us. But so long as the gas supply is on the line, nothing will actually be done.

stinkypinky

This is a baffling story and a sign of the times. Cafferty is Latino which makes it even more stupid.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/

"What happened to Emmanuel Cafferty is an especially egregious example. At the end of a long shift mapping underground utility lines, he was on his way home, his left hand casually hanging out the window of the white pickup truck issued to him by the San Diego Gas & Electric company. When he came to a halt at a traffic light, another driver flipped him off.

Then, Cafferty told me a few days ago, the other driver began to act even more strangely. He flashed what looked to Cafferty like an “okay” hand gesture and started cussing him out. When the light turned green, Cafferty drove off, hoping to put an end to the disconcerting encounter.

But when Cafferty reached another red light, the man, now holding a cellphone camera, was there again. “Do it! Do it!” he shouted. Unsure what to do, Cafferty copied the gesture the other driver kept making. The man appeared to take a video, or perhaps a photo.

Two hours later, Cafferty got a call from his supervisor, who told him that somebody had seen Cafferty making a white-supremacist hand gesture, and had posted photographic evidence on Twitter. (Likely unbeknownst to most Americans, the alt-right has appropriated a version of the “okay” symbol for their own purposes because it looks like the initials for “white power”; this is the symbol the man accused Cafferty of making when his hand was dangling out of his truck.) Dozens of people were now calling the company to demand Cafferty’s dismissal.

By the end of the call, Cafferty had been suspended without pay. By the end of the day, his colleagues had come by his house to pick up the company truck. By the following Monday, he was out of a job."

Junkyard Tom

excludedbin wrote: »

Central and even Western European countries are happy to keep [mostly] silent about Russia only so long as Russia keeps supplying gas (and oil). Russian disinformation being spread so pervasively over the last number of years means no one in the West can really deny that Russia is a threat to us. But so long as the gas supply is on the line, nothing will actually be done.

Taking their gas creates mutual interest in stability of the other, probably why Washington is so steadfastly against it.

Tired Gardener

stinkypinky wrote: »

This is a baffling story and a sign of the times. Cafferty is Latino which makes it even more stupid.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/

"What happened to Emmanuel Cafferty is an especially egregious example. At the end of a long shift mapping underground utility lines, he was on his way home, his left hand casually hanging out the window of the white pickup truck issued to him by the San Diego Gas & Electric company. When he came to a halt at a traffic light, another driver flipped him off.

Then, Cafferty told me a few days ago, the other driver began to act even more strangely. He flashed what looked to Cafferty like an “okay” hand gesture and started cussing him out. When the light turned green, Cafferty drove off, hoping to put an end to the disconcerting encounter.

But when Cafferty reached another red light, the man, now holding a cellphone camera, was there again. “Do it! Do it!” he shouted. Unsure what to do, Cafferty copied the gesture the other driver kept making. The man appeared to take a video, or perhaps a photo.

Two hours later, Cafferty got a call from his supervisor, who told him that somebody had seen Cafferty making a white-supremacist hand gesture, and had posted photographic evidence on Twitter. (Likely unbeknownst to most Americans, the alt-right has appropriated a version of the “okay” symbol for their own purposes because it looks like the initials for “white power”; this is the symbol the man accused Cafferty of making when his hand was dangling out of his truck.) Dozens of people were now calling the company to demand Cafferty’s dismissal.

By the end of the call, Cafferty had been suspended without pay. By the end of the day, his colleagues had come by his house to pick up the company truck. By the following Monday, he was out of a job."

What makes that even more bizarre is that it was a bunch of right wing 4chan trolls back in 2017 that promoted the hoax to see if they could get the left wing to see it as a gesture of hate.

Looks like they succeed.

https://www.adl.org/blog/how-the-ok-symbol-became-a-popular-trolling-gesture

stinkypinky

Tired Gardener wrote: »

What makes that even more bizarre is that it was a bunch of right wing 4chan trolls back in 2017 that promoted the hoax to see if they could get the left wing to see it as a gesture of hate.

Looks like they succeed.

https://www.adl.org/blog/how-the-ok-symbol-became-a-popular-trolling-gesture

Yeah indeed. What's even more bizarre is you see twitter posts from activist type folks saying "sucks that he was fired but he should have been more careful with his fingers, live and learn". This type of intimidation and low intellect appears to be a common theme from people who try to justify such idiocy. If that type of reasoning isn't indoctrination I don't know what is.

Tired Gardener

stinkypinky wrote: »

Yeah indeed. What's even more bizarre is you see twitter posts from activist type folks saying "sucks that he was fired but he should have been more careful with his fingers, live and learn". This type of intimidation and low intellect appears to be a common theme from people who try to justify such idiocy. If that type of reasoning isn't indoctrination I don't know what is.

Both sides of the political spectrum are just as guilty as falling for the hoax. A good number of hostile Trump supporters got wind that the Left found it offensive, so started to adopt it as a way to trigger people. These people were unaware that it was an internet hoax.

Reminds me of the saying: a lie will have traveled around the world, before the truth has even put its shoes on.

The internet has really changed our reality. The sad thing is, why can't really disconnect from it, otherwise we are likely to fall foul of the hoaxes that are spread. We need the very same tool (the internet) to be able to fact check and challenge these sort of things.

In the last 10 years or so, our relationship with the internet has completely changed. I wonder if smartphones added to this change.

CrankyHaus

What exactly is left-wing about firing workers for the hand-gestures they make?
It sounds more like something from the Gilded Age, that the Simpsons would mock by having Mr Burns reminisce about, than a modern reality enforced by people who consider themselves to be on the left.

Tired Gardener

CrankyHaus wrote: »

What exactly is left-wing about firing workers for the hand-gestures they make?
It sounds more like something from the Gilded Age, that the Simpsons would mock by having Mr Burns reminisce about, than a modern reality enforced by people who consider themselves to be on the left.

Partly to do with how American politics has been so polarised, and as their culture is so pervasive we ingest a lot of it subconsciously.

To us here in Ireland/Europe it may not seem a left-wing thing, but to the Americans, they view left-wing as being something different to what we would recognise.

Wibbs

Tired Gardener wrote: »

To us here in Ireland/Europe it may not seem a left-wing thing, but to the Americans, they view left-wing as being something different to what we would recognise.

True enough. My position on many things would be considered centre right here, even far right for the overly sensitive, but for many in the States I'd be damned near a Red Commie.

Snickers Man

It appears that the long-standing holder of the title "Rudest Man in Britain", one Professor David Starkey has finally made an inflammatory comment too many and has been "cancelled" by several institutions which employed his services.

Apparently saying that "Slavery was not genocide because so many damn blacks are still alive" is not going to win friends and influence people in academia. So they have let him go.

The offending interview can be seen here although the second part of the comment has clearly been edited out.

I think the man is a prat, and he's 75 years old so he probably doesn't need all the fees that still accrue to him from various speaking engagements at universities. And it was a stupid thing to say, deliberately inflammatory, and logically unnecessary (like, what the hell has slavery to do with genocide?).

But I'm not sure he should be ostracised from platforms and fora where he would at least be likely to encounter a dissenting argument. Now he's just going to become a fixture on the online echo chamber of websites and youtube channels populated by right wing/aggrieved white men/xenophobic/"wasn't-the-empire-great-why-can't-we-have-it-back" losers. And with the added credibility of victim hood.

The simpering sycophant who interviewed him above is a typical example. Get used to a whole load more.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Yo, Snickers Man, last week wants its story back! :pac: :P

Ah no, Starkey’s comments were shocking. Like, oh it’s just slavery, not genocide, that’s okay then. :rolleyes: And there’s no good way to spin “Slavery was not genocide otherwise there wouldn’t be so many damn blacks in Africa or Britain, would there? An awful lot of them survived,”.

But I agree, he simply needs robust questioning and opposition. The guy “interviewing” him just nodded along dopily. I could see Andrew Neil - who is right wing - tearing into Starkey there.

Overheal

Wibbs wrote: »

True enough. My position on many things would be considered centre right here, even far right for the overly sensitive, but for many in the States I'd be damned near a Red Commie.

If its not the hippies its the fu*kin' commies :mad:

At least it's not the Dutch. There's only two things I hate in this world: people who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch

Chris_Heilong

Overheal wrote: »

If its not the hippies its the fu*kin' commies :mad:

At least it's not the Dutch. There's only two things I hate in this world: people who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch

I know that is a joke but it lets me point out that the way things are going in a few years time it might be considered hate speech.

Snickers Man

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Yo, Snickers Man, last week wants its story back! :pac: :P

Meh. Maybe, but there didn't seem to be any mention of it on this site. So I did.

Silentcorner

I think this is fitting for this thread, a NYT Opinions Editor has resigned, it is important because different versions of this dynamic are evident across news media, tv, movies more and more....

The following is her resignation letter, well worth a read.

https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter

Can you begin to imagine how media owners are going to navigate this culture and maintain viability in this difficult climate...they have created a monster.

Invidious

Silentcorner wrote: »

I think this is fitting for this thread, a NYT Opinions Editor has resigned, it is important because different versions of this dynamic are evident across news media, tv, movies more and more....

Bari Weiss is conservative, Jewish, and pro-Israel, so she doesn't mesh well with the New York Times's vision of inclusivity. No surprise that she was subjected to workplace bullying by her NYT colleagues.

Silentcorner

Invidious wrote: »

Bari Weiss is conservative, Jewish, and pro-Israel, so she doesn't mesh well with the New York Times's vision of inclusivity. No surprise that she was subjected to workplace bullying by her NYT colleagues.

She was brought in after the election of Trump as clearly the NYT had detached themselves from so many Americans that they felt the need to redress the imbalance....but it is the culture I would be concerned with, a bullying culture like that will lead to serious litigation, staff turnover and a diminished product...it is clearly an impossible place to work let alone manage!!

Invidious

Like many others, the NYT wants diversity of gender, ethnicity, and sexual orientation but not diversity of thought.

Overheal

This trending is a bit weird though not surprising. There is now a push to cancel Sebastian Stan (famous for his MCU portrayal of Bucky Barnes, the Winter Soldier) because he blocked people harassing him about these photos of his girlfriend from a themed Asian party a couple years ago

I'm not a fan normally of the far left trying to make an outrage out of most 'cultural appropriation' - like attacking people for choosing to wear dreadlocks, as if it is a wholly copyrighted hairstyle. They're making a great deal of #geisha ("In short: Yes, foreigners can become geisha, as long as they are fluent in Japanese" - google) and all I see here is a lot of effort put into their portrayals. This is a far, far cry from racist glorification, or blackface, it's not Mickey Rooney stuff. But crazier than that you're trying to cancel Sebastian Stan out of association, not anything he did himself, besides not wanting to deal with this **** over twitter.

The other angle of this is it's part of a long history now of MCU actors being 'canceled' by folks online, though those were easier to understand: efforts by bro culture to 'cancel' Black Panther, and Captain Marvel, both for not pandering to atypical white males. Disney will in their hole do anything to be reactionary to this though, lessons were learned after cancel culture knocked off James Gunn without any hesitation, which was a kneejerk cluster**** that destabilized all of Marvel's plan for 'Phase 4,' and knocked Vol. 3 of Guardians of the Galaxy completely out of it into phase 5. Also consider that this controversy stems from Disney woes about fans who are the 'wrong ethnicity' dressing up as their favorite disney characters for Halloween, such as Jasmine from Aladdin.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

This trending is a bit weird though not surprising. There is now a push to cancel Sebastian Stan (famous for his MCU portrayal of Bucky Barnes, the Winter Soldier) because he blocked people harassing him about these photos of his girlfriend from a themed Asian party a couple years ago

.

I find the whole thing quite funny to be honest. These people are twisting themselves into knots to appear virtuous. They're likely to be the very people in favor of multiculturalism, or shouting loudly against racism, but yet, seek to shut down the sharing of culture outside of racial groups. It's beyond retarded at this point...

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

I find the whole thing quite funny to be honest. These people are twisting themselves into knots to appear virtuous. They're likely to be the very people in favor of multiculturalism, or shouting loudly against racism, but yet, seek to shut down the sharing of culture outside of racial groups. It's beyond retarded at this point...

It's a slow news day and they're still shifted into "I'm outraged" gear with everything else that has been going on these days. IMHO. You had to go digging for this shyte, and its not like any of her instagram followers were upset about this at the time, even though culture and costume controversy was a hot topic even before 2018. They're bored and out gallivanting for an afternoon cause.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Overheal wrote: »

This trending is a bit weird though not surprising. There is now a push to cancel Sebastian Stan (famous for his MCU portrayal of Bucky Barnes, the Winter Soldier) because he blocked people harassing him about these photos of his girlfriend from a themed Asian party a couple years ago

I'm not a fan normally of the far left trying to make an outrage out of most 'cultural appropriation' - like attacking people for choosing to wear dreadlocks, as if it is a wholly copyrighted hairstyle. They're making a great deal of #geisha ("In short: Yes, foreigners can become geisha, as long as they are fluent in Japanese" - google) and all I see here is a lot of effort put into their portrayals. This is a far, far cry from racist glorification, or blackface, it's not Mickey Rooney stuff. But crazier than that you're trying to cancel Sebastian Stan out of association, not anything he did himself, besides not wanting to deal with this **** over twitter.

The other angle of this is it's part of a long history now of MCU actors being 'canceled' by folks online, though those were easier to understand: efforts by bro culture to 'cancel' Black Panther, and Captain Marvel, both for not pandering to atypical white males. Disney will in their hole do anything to be reactionary to this though, lessons were learned after cancel culture knocked off James Gunn without any hesitation, which was a kneejerk cluster**** that destabilized all of Marvel's plan for 'Phase 4,' and knocked Vol. 3 of Guardians of the Galaxy completely out of it into phase 5. Also consider that this controversy stems from Disney woes about fans who are the 'wrong ethnicity' dressing up as their favorite disney characters for Halloween, such as Jasmine from Aladdin.

I felt exhausted just reading this. How do these people have so little to be worrying about? It’s like they speak a different language to me.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

I find the whole thing quite funny to be honest. These people are twisting themselves into knots to appear virtuous. They're likely to be the very people in favor of multiculturalism, or shouting loudly against racism, but yet, seek to shut down the sharing of culture outside of racial groups. It's beyond retarded at this point...

That’s what I don’t get about cultural appropriation - surely admiring a style or type of clothing that another ethnic group introduces is a good thing? It’s all confused. Multiculturalism and integration - YAY! But HOW DARE YOU BORROW SOMETHING FROM SOMEBODY ELSE’S CULTURE. It’s promoting division and separation.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That’s what I don’t get about cultural appropriation - surely admiring a style or type of clothing that another ethnic group introduces is a good thing? It’s all confused. Multiculturalism and integration - YAY! But HOW DARE YOU BORROW SOMETHING FROM SOMEBODY ELSE’S CULTURE. It’s promoting division and separation.

Multiculturalism isn't about integration though. In every western country, it's been promoted as something that westerners must adapt to... not the other cultures adapting to western culture. Each time an example is shown of a migrant not succeeding, it's because westerners weren't welcoming enough, they were racist, the government wasn't helpful etc. It's very rare that we hear any responsibility being directed at the migrant.

Modern multiculturalism is about division because it justifies the existence of the activists, NGO's, or the government consultants/politicians who campaign for it... It'll bring about conflict because other cultures are held above the native culture. Nationalism is bad when we do it, but grand when others do it. White pride is bad when white people do it, but it's perfectly fine when Black people do it. Double standards are the rule of the day... It's like the AA woman getting angry at a white guy wearing dreads, but no appreciation that her own wearing of dreads is the same example appropriation.. she's black, not American, so it's ok. Double standards. And they don't even see just how much hypocrisy is involved.

Chris_Heilong

Invidious wrote: »

Bari Weiss is conservative, Jewish, and pro-Israel, so she doesn't mesh well with the New York Times's vision of inclusivity. No surprise that she was subjected to workplace bullying by her NYT colleagues.

She was a centrist, not a Trump supporter but due to not having far left ideals she found herself a victim of the usual far left intolerance, a case of think exactly like us or you are the enemy. When the NYT hired that racist Sarah Jeong I knew it was a paper I could not trust.

Chris_Heilong

Overheal wrote: »

The other angle of this is it's part of a long history now of MCU actors being 'canceled' by folks online, though those were easier to understand: efforts by bro culture to 'cancel' Black Panther, and Captain Marvel, both for not pandering to atypical white males. Disney will in their hole do anything to be reactionary to this though, lessons were learned after cancel culture knocked off James Gunn without any hesitation, which was a kneejerk cluster**** that destabilized all of Marvel's plan for 'Phase 4,' and knocked Vol. 3 of Guardians of the Galaxy completely out of it into phase 5. Also consider that this controversy stems from Disney woes about fans who are the 'wrong ethnicity' dressing up as their favorite disney characters for Halloween, such as Jasmine from Aladdin.

People's problem with Captain Marvel was down to one issue and one issue only Brie Larson and things she said(nothing to do with women lead movies as Wonder Woman proved), Even being as exclusionary as to give out free tickets to poor girls to see her film as if that was a big deal, what about the boys? Also if you want to do something nice look at Alita Battle Angel that made arms for a 13 year old girl who lost her arms, these happened around the same time.

Black panther had mostly positive attitude towards it, It was overrated for sure and I saw people having an issue it was getting some many accolades just because it was Black representation and not on its own merits but I am assuming you are hinting at some sort of racist angle? I did a google search and found One troll Made a facebook page to cancel the film which had just a few hundred followers and it was shut down extremely fast and another that was left wing Identitarians crying about Micheal B Jordan "People say they are boycotting Marvel's Black Panther because actor is “dating outside his race”,

Junkyard Tom

This, this right here is living in the internet.

Tired Gardener

The more this sort of crap happens, the more cancel culture just makes a joke out of itself. In a few years time I suspect that this craze will be over.

I wonder if Pokémon Go was keeping all these nutbags too busy to trawl through people's SM accounts for any bit of slight grievance.

Culture appropriation is something that I just don't get, culture is not a stagnant thing, it is part of the shared Human history. Trying to block people from enjoying parts of other people's culture just seems the opposite of multicultural society.

Again, it all seems to stem from a vocal minority on the internet.

Invidious

Deleted User wrote: »

I find the whole thing quite funny to be honest. These people are twisting themselves into knots to appear virtuous. They're likely to be the very people in favor of multiculturalism, or shouting loudly against racism, but yet, seek to shut down the sharing of culture outside of racial groups. It's beyond retarded at this point...

A few years ago, I went to the wedding of an Indian co-worker. They had lots of white guests, and most of the white women wore saris, at the bride's request. It was a genuinely multicultural event, very colourful and great fun — but I suppose people had better now delete those photos from their social media before the woke brigade decides to cancel them...