Intellectuals weigh in on Cancel Culture

mick087

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I disagree about the unchangeable part, we created this beast, we can change it if we put our minds together, which is slowly happening, very slowly though. I suspect trump and brexit will force us to change, I certainly hope it does, but I'm confident enough, the world has had enough of this nonsense now, but changing won't be easy

You carnt change that that is not democratic to start with.

Wanderer78

mick087 wrote:

You carnt change that that is not democratic to start with.

Good point, there is a small political group which was started a few years ago by yanis varoufakis called diem 25, their main aim is to redemocratise the EU, or it may collapse, only recently joined myself

mick087

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Good point, there is a small political group which was started a few years ago by yanis varoufakis called diem 25, their main aim is to redemocratise the EU, or it may collapse, only recently joined myself

Its gonna be a tough long jorney.

Wanderer78

mick087 wrote:

Its gonna be a tough long jorney.

Yea it won't be easy, but I suspect current situations such as trump, brexit and covid, might help, with people realising we need to create some sort of safety net for all, particularly with our health systems

mick087

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Yea it won't be easy, but I suspect current situations such as trump, brexit and covid, might help, with people realising we need to create some sort of safety net for all, particularly with our health systems

I have actually googled DiEM25 im gonna read up on them. It does look like a very interesting group.

Wanderer78

Yea they are a very interesting group, unfortunately they ll probably remain quite small though, but they've pulled in some big names, chomsky, David mcwilliams, Brian eno etc. I'm hoping to meet varoufakis in kilkenny this year at kilkenomics, he regularly meets diemers there

joe40

mick087 wrote: »

You carnt change that that is not democratic to start with.

How is Europe not democratic. MEPs are elected, countries elect their own leaders who represent individual countries interests.
This sounds like a lot of the stuff put out during the Brexit debate.

Wanderer78

joe40 wrote:

How is Europe not democratic. MEPs are elected, countries elect their own leaders who represent individual countries interests. This sounds like a lot of the stuff put out during the Brexit debate.

varoufakis's book adults in the room is well worth a read, democratic rule and control within major eu institutions such as the commission and the ecb is effectively none existence, mep's have little or no say in their workings

mick087

joe40 wrote: »

How is Europe not democratic. MEPs are elected, countries elect their own leaders who represent individual countries interests.
This sounds like a lot of the stuff put out during the Brexit debate.

In Ireland we vote for a government and the government has to listen to you. If WE are not happy we can change it.
In Europe all the key positions are appointed not elected.
The Commission are all appointed not one of them elected.

mick087

mick087 wrote: »

Its the middle class university educated elite that is the issue.
They know what is best they know what is right and wrong. and if you dont agree your either a racist or a privileged white man.

I find the class system in Ireland to be a bit of a joke these days, considering the opportunities available to everyone in this country. It's not like the days when class was an absolute without much in the way of social mobility, but those days are far behind us. In fact, I find that often the people who call themselves "working class" have children who would be considered "middle class", but due to their parents, they identity themselves as "working class".

Christ, almost everyone in this country works hard for what they have... so it's awfully insulting when people push this working class nonsense as if to say their lives are far worse than everyone who is considered to be middle class.

In other words, it's mostly a pile of manure, and a convenience to pass responsibility off to the 'other' classes.

The funny thing is that these days it's probably those of the "working class" who are just as likely as anyone to call someone a racist, or that someone is privileged.

They scream and protest for equity well equity for cetrian groups, god forbid you suggest equity for all, and if you even try to say equity for the working class you get that patronising smirk.

Any research to back up your claims? Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm sure many of the middle class are doing such, just as others wouldn't be. I'm just curious on what you're basing your opinion on.

They critise elected world leaders and in my opioion most are bloody alful but they was elected never the less.

Strangely enough in my local, pretty much everyone (of all kinds of backgrounds) complains about world leaders (mostly Trump and Boris) and there is a massive range of ignorance on issues... but that's been the case, forever.

We are heading towards a communist europe where you are locked up for having a differernce of opinion.

Err... no, we're not. Not even close to that yet. Unless you want to provide some solid evidence of it happening in the primary nations within Europe, since they'd be the ones leading the way.

Im accused of having left views but i believe with all my heart in demrocarcy and freemdom of speach even for views beliefs i dont like.

haha.. not to worry. I won't be accusing you of having leftist views. Somewhat demented views, sure. Biased views, definitely.

joe40

mick087 wrote: »

In Ireland we vote for a government and the government has to listen to you. If WE are not happy we can change it.
In Europe all the key positions are appointed not elected.
The Commission are all appointed not one of them elected.

The commissioners do not decide EU laws. There is a whole raft of legislative bodies.


https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/13/is-the-eu-undemocratic-referendum-reality-check

Article on this point during Brexit debate.

On the "working class" thing. How do you define working class?

mick087

Deleted User wrote: »

I find the class system in Ireland to be a bit of a .

It's not like the days when class was an absolute without much in the way of social mobility, but those days are far behind us.
There is no question that there is an ilusion has been created that them days are over and it would suit some for them days to be over and not worry or care what is behind the ilusion.

In fact, I find that often the people who call themselves "working class" have children who would be considered "middle class",
I don’t find many working class people with kids who have gone on to be middle class, some do im sure but I don’t really know any to be honest. The majority of kids from working class familes i would know are now poverty class.

but due to their parents, they identity themselves as "working class".
Yes many folk feel better by saying working class and not poverty class. To say your living in poverty and need help would be quite an ordeal for most.

Christ, almost everyone in this country works hard for what they have... so it's awfully insulting when people push this working class
No I would say everyone works hard even someone gutting the fish. And thinking this is a low skilled job IS also awfully insulting to the person gutting the fish.

In other words, it's mostly a pile of manure, and a convenience to pass responsibility off to the 'other' classes.
I would like to live in a society where education health wealth housing was equal for all, a society that took responsibility for its citizens no matter what degree trade job they had. A society with equity for all not matter what your job or back ground was. If you think that is a pile of manure then we will never get on.

The funny thing is that these days it's probably those of the "working class" who are just as likely as anyone to call someone a racist, or that someone is privileged.
Racism is ugly racism is not nice, prejudice is not nice, to think one is better than another is not nice. It don’t and never did mater what back ground your from all these racists live and breath in all parts of society.

Any research to back up your claims? Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm sure many of the middle class are doing such, just as others wouldn't be. I'm just curious on what you're basing your opinion on.
This is from my own personal experiences in life, not research based on experience.

Strangely enough in my local, pretty much everyone (of all kinds of backgrounds) complains about world leaders (mostly Trump and Boris) and there is a massive range of ignorance on issues... but that's been the case, forever.
All local pubs have a mix of all sorts all putting the world to rights all having different opinions. Unfortunately this culture is dyeing out.

Err... no, we're not. Not even close to that yet. Unless you want to provide some solid evidence of it happening in the primary nations within Europe, since they'd be the ones leading the way.
On reflection maybe I was over stating or incorrectly stating something in a bad way.
But we are heading to a Europe that will not allow a different view.

haha.. not to worry. I won't be accusing you of having leftist views. Somewhat demented views, sure. Biased views, definitely.
My views are not biased they are my views what I think, not copy paste they are someone else words they are mine.

Right or wrong I have them. All people have and should always have this right.

mick087

joe40 wrote: »

The commissioners do not decide EU laws. There is a whole raft of legislative bodies.


https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/13/is-the-eu-undemocratic-referendum-reality-check

Article on this point during Brexit debate.

On the "working class" thing. How do you define working class?

Please please dont send me links tell me your view your reason what you actually think, please in your own words, even if its rubbish or bad spelling like me just give me your view. Please not a link not someone else view, give me your view tell me why you think the EU is democratic.

Geuze

mick087 wrote: »

In Ireland we vote for a government and the government has to listen to you. If WE are not happy we can change it.
In Europe all the key positions are appointed not elected.
The Commission are all appointed not one of them elected.

The Commission are not elected, correct.

But the most important and powerful institution is the Council of Ministers, which is all the Ministers.

Which we elect.

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

The Commission are not elected, correct.

But the most important and powerful institution is the Council of Ministers, which is all the Ministers.

Which we elect.

We elect people who appoint people. It's how every country works.

mick087

mick087 wrote: »

Right or wrong I have them. All people have and should always have this right.

I don't think anyone suggested that you shouldn't have that right... or seek to shut you down for expressing them. Just as my own opinions have value, as do yours.

We simply disagree. Which is, oddly enough, allowed.

Wanderer78

Geuze wrote:

But the most important and powerful institution is the Council of Ministers, which is all the Ministers.

If you follow varoufakis's work, you ll see there's a major deficiency of democracy control within eu institutions, his book adults in the room is somewhat disturbing to say the least of how undemocratic it is, the plutocratic elements of the EU generally have the upper hand, particularly during moments of crisis

Invidious

mick087 wrote: »

Yes Europe is now built on neo-liberal economic principles which are iron-clad and unchangeable i agree. Europe is totally uneaual, and we are indeed in the hands of the rich and powerful.

Europe has never been as democratic, equal, and free as it is right now. If you think otherwise, maybe dig out a history book or two and read up.

Wanderer78

Invidious wrote:

Europe has never been as democratic, equal, and free as it is right now. If you think otherwise, maybe dig out a history book or two and read up.

Gini coefficients are slowly rising in many eu countries, inequality is in fact slowly growing across the region, yes the EU certainly is more at peace than before, but we must start addressing these inequalities, or possibly face a destruction of the union

mick087

Geuze wrote: »

The Commission are not elected, correct.

But the most important and powerful institution is the Council of Ministers, which is all the Ministers.

Which we elect.

The richer states have more power this is not fair and not democratic.

mick087

Invidious wrote: »

Europe has never been as democratic, equal, and free as it is right now. If you think otherwise, maybe dig out a history book or two and read up.

I guess we would not agree on europe being democratic.

We are not even equal as irish citizens let alone a EU citizens.

If you take a walk around Dublin and see poverty and inequality today then you wont need your history book. You need to roll up your sleeves and fight for real equity for all for today.

Wanderer78

mick087 wrote:

The richer states have more power this is not fair and not democratic.

Its actually a plutocratic union, but we ve managed to convince ourselves it's democratic, but of course democracy is intertwined with these plutocratic elements, but is severely limited in its ability to influence these plutocratic elements

mick087

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think anyone suggested that you shouldn't have that right... or seek to shut you down for expressing them. Just as my own opinions have value, as do yours.

We simply disagree. Which is, oddly enough, allowed.

Yes there are people who would want to shut you down for expressing a view that is not popular. This does happen.
Even on here some of my views i have been accused of being a troll or a wind up all because my view was differernt.

mick087

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Its actually a plutocratic union, but we ve managed to convince ourselves it's democratic, but of course democracy is intertwined with these plutocratic elements, but is severely limited in its ability to influence these plutocratic elements

I would agree it is run by the rich. certain groups of people have indeed convinced themesleves its democratic equal and fair. These people are blinded to the issues of inequality in Ireland yet alone of europe.

Wanderer78

mick087 wrote:

I would agree it is run by the rich. certain groups of people have indeed convinced themesleves its democratic equal and fair. These people are blinded to the issues of inequality in Ireland yet alone of europe.

Even though I agree, I think we need to rephrase the use of the words 'the rich', as a large amount of wealth, possibly most, is actually accumulating not only amongst wealthy individuals and families, but in fact within wealthy institutions, corporations, groups etc etc, the plutocratic class is a complex beast in our modern world

joe40

mick087 wrote: »

I guess we would not agree on europe being democratic.

We are not even equal as irish citizens let alone a EU citizens.

If you take a walk around Dublin and see poverty and inequality today then you wont need your history book. You need to roll up your sleeves and fight for real equity for all for today.

I believe we need better equality, but there are no simple solutions. Talk of working class is not particularly helpful without a definition of what working class. Me and my wife both work, I'm not going to claim poverty, that would be an an insult to people in real poverty, but there is no wealth.

Kids going to college, hopefully, is going to be a real struggle. I would very much consider myself working class from my background.

Invidious

mick087 wrote: »

If you take a walk around Dublin and see poverty and inequality today then you wont need your history book.

A century ago, inner-city Dublin was filled with filthy, overcrowded, disease-ridden tenements. The 1911 census showed 835 people living in just 15 houses on Henrietta Street.

Today, Ireland spends around €20 billion annually on social welfare. The levels of poverty that were widespread in Dublin a century ago no longer exist.

So yeah, I do think you need that history book if you're going to walk around bemoaning the awful conditions that exist today.

mick087

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Even though I agree, I think we need to rephrase the use of the words 'the rich', as a large amount of wealth, possibly most, is actually accumulating not only amongst wealthy individuals and families, but in fact within wealthy institutions, corporations, groups etc etc, the plutocratic class is a complex beast in our modern world

I would agrue if you start to rephrase wording your hiding your true opinion what you really feel, over time people would then see through this.

I but i do accept why i should be rephrase some of my wording this has been pointed out to me on many occasions.

mick087

Invidious wrote: »

A century ago, inner-city Dublin was filled with filthy, overcrowded, disease-ridden tenements. The 1911 census showed 835 people living in just 15 houses on Henrietta Street.

Today, Ireland spends around €20 billion annually on social welfare. The levels of poverty that were widespread in Dublin a century ago no longer exist.

So yeah, I do think you need that history book if you're going to walk around bemoaning the awful conditions that exist today.

2020 people living in over crowded conditions, lack of hosuing, food banks poverty people dieing from covid-19

The one thing your history book will teach you is history always repeats itself.

KiKi III

mick087 wrote: »

The richer states have more power this is not fair and not democratic.

Did poor European countries have more or less power prior to the establishment of the EU?