Intellectuals weigh in on Cancel Culture

mick087

KiKi III wrote: »

Did poor European countries have more or less power prior to the establishment of the EU?

More power to run its own countries and its own affairs when they was not in the EU.

Brussels now the have powers to make laws for all countries of the EU and our own goverments have lost powers to EU.

Europe will fall apart if the iniquity of the states is not addressed.

KiKi III

mick087 wrote: »

More power to run its own countries and its own affairs when they was not in the EU.

The question was about the global stage. Do you think poor countries in Europe have more or less power than before the EU?

mick087 wrote: »

Brussels now the have powers to make laws for all countries of the EU and our own goverments have lost powers to EU.

Can you name a law - one law - that Brussels unilaterally forced a country to implement without all countries getting a say and a vote on it?

Invidious

mick087 wrote: »

2020 people living in over crowded conditions, lack of hosuing, food banks poverty people dieing from covid-19

The one thing your history book will teach you is history always repeats itself.

Can you indicate where in Ireland today we have 835 people living in 15 houses? Instead, we have people turning down state-provided housing because it's not in their preferred area.

There were no food banks in Ireland a century ago, and no social welfare. Nor could someone buy a nutritious meal for their family with one hour of minimum-wage labour.

The Spanish Flu killed over 23,000 people in Ireland. Covid-19 hasn't yet killed 8 percent of that figure.

Claiming that history is "repeating itself" is entirely wrong, and ignores the huge progress that Ireland has made over the past century, and especially in the past 40 years.

Wanderer78

mick087 wrote: »

I would agrue if you start to rephrase wording your hiding your true opinion what you really feel, over time people would then see through this.

I but i do accept why i should be rephrase some of my wording this has been pointed out to me on many occasions.

purely blaming 'the rich' is simply not the absolute truth, we have a tendency to try find people to blame for our failures, when our reality is in fact far more complex. we have managed to convince ourselves that if we create extremely wealthy institutions and corporations etc, that this wealth in turn 'trickles down', this isnt exactly true, at best its only partially true, in many cases, many of these wealthy organisations become a part of a complex network of monopolistic 'rent seekers', extracting wealth from the many, to only be truly 'shared' amongst the few. some of the biggest offenders in this behavior can be found in the 'fire sectors', finance, insurance and real estate, but of course there are others. its one of my main grips with the political left, particularly here in Ireland, im a proud lefty myself, but have virtually no political representation because of these views.

Dyr

KiKi III wrote: »

Did poor European countries have more or less power prior to the establishment of the EU?

The Greeks and Italians once had control of their own currencies and budgets, they can no longer run a defecit even when their economies are utterly stagnant, they once had control of their own borders

So yeah, things like that add up to less power for the democractic nation state.

Tony Benn's last two questions for democracy apply here, The EU has a fundamentally undemocratic bent that needs to be reformed.

KiKi III

Bambi wrote: »

The Greeks and Italians once had control of their own currencies and budgets, they can no longer run a defecit even when their economies are utterly stagnant, they once had control of their own borders

So yeah, things like that add up to less power for the democractic nation state.

Tony Benn's last two questions for democracy apply here, The EU has a fundamentally undemocratic bent that needs to be reformed.

The Greeks and Italians could have refused the EU bailouts they got and retained a greater degree of sovereignty over their finances. They chose to give that up in favour of billions of euro in bailout money, and their people were better off for it.

Wanderer78

KiKi III wrote: »

The Greeks and Italians could have refused the EU bailouts they got and retained a greater degree of sovereignty over their finances. They chose to give that up in favour of billions of euro in bailout money, and their people were better off for it.

greece was completely unable to renegotiation its bailout deal, hence why varoufakis walked away from the process, realizing that he was ultimately just negotiating the right to negotiate, in which he was never going to be allowed to renegotiation. this was a clear message from the true operators and controllers of the euro zone, the plutocratic class, do not dare try stand up against us, or we will destroy your economy, all explained very well in adults in the room. the Italian and greek economies are largely stagnant now, or in decline due to this outcome

KiKi III

Wanderer78 wrote: »

greece was completely unable to renegotiation its bailout deal, hence why varoufakis walked away from the process, realizing that he was ultimately just negotiating the right to negotiate, in which he was never going to be allowed to renegotiation. this was a clear message from the true operators and controllers of the euro zone, the plutocratic class, do not dare try stand up against us, or we will destroy your economy, all explained very well in adults in the room. the Italian and greek economies are largely stagnant now, or in decline due to this outcome

They accepted the terms they got. You hardly expect to get a multi-billion euro bailout with no conditions attached?

Dyr

KiKi III wrote: »

The Greeks and Italians could have refused the EU bailouts they got and retained a greater degree of sovereignty over their finances. They chose to give that up in favour of billions of euro in bailout money, and their people were better off for it.

The limitations I mentioned were not contingent on bailouts, they are a result of EU membership. Worth mentioning that both France and Germany broke some of them without consequence, unlike other countries.

The reality is that some of the fundamental roles of government in European nations were taken away from the control of the nation state and handed over to a council of ministers and an unelected commision

You don't improve democracy by lessening it.

mick087

KiKi III wrote: »

The question was about the global stage. Do you think poor countries in Europe have more or less power than before the EU?
I would say poor countries have the same power as they did before they joined the EU, i would say a few countries have the real power.




Can you name a law - one law - that Brussels unilaterally forced a country to implement without all countries getting a say and a vote on it?

Its not a question of forced to make laws,.I want my own elected TD from my my own area to answer to me and the people in that community. Brussels should have no say on any laws that effect anyone in Ireland. This should be done through our own Dáil. This started off as a common market now its making laws where does this stop?

McFly85

mick087 wrote: »

Its not a question of forced to make laws,.I want my own elected TD from my my own area to answer to me and the people in that community. Brussels should have no say on any laws that effect anyone in Ireland. This should be done through our own Dáil. This started off as a common market now its making laws where does this stop?

What laws are they* making that do not require ratification by the member states?

*they actually being representatives directly elected by us along with all other member states.

Dyr

mick087 wrote: »

Its not a question of forced to make laws,.I want my own elected TD from my my own area to answer to me and the people in that community. Brussels should have no say on any laws that effect anyone in Ireland. This should be done through our own Dáil. This started off as a common market now its making laws where does this stop?

Take a look at the former communist states who joined EU, most of their economies are utterly stagnant but they provide German companies with markets and a well skilled but cheap labour force.

mick087

Wanderer78 wrote: »

purely blaming 'the rich' is simply not the absolute truth, we have a tendency to try find people to blame for our failures, when our reality is in fact far more complex. we have managed to convince ourselves that if we create extremely wealthy institutions and corporations etc, that this wealth in turn 'trickles down', this isnt exactly true, at best its only partially true, in many cases, many of these wealthy organisations become a part of a complex network of monopolistic 'rent seekers', extracting wealth from the many, to only be truly 'shared' amongst the few. some of the biggest offenders in this behavior can be found in the 'fire sectors', finance, insurance and real estate, but of course there are others. its one of my main grips with the political left, particularly here in Ireland, im a proud lefty myself, but have virtually no political representation because of these views.

Yes your totally right, when i say rich im not picking on an individual it may sound like i am but my vocabulary would not be as rich as yours.

Rich to me would be wealthy institutions and corporations finance organisations it would be hard to point the finger at any one person.

I would say we would agree on 90% on this, but you can never agree on everything.

KiKi III

mick087 wrote: »

Its not a question of forced to make laws,.I want my own elected TD from my my own area to answer to me and the people in that community. Brussels should have no say on any laws that effect anyone in Ireland. This should be done through our own Dáil. This started off as a common market now its making laws where does this stop?

Our laws are made in Dail Eireann and your local TD does answer to you.

Again I'll ask you to point me to a law Brussels forced on us?

Invidious

mick087 wrote: »

Brussels should have no say on any laws that effect anyone in Ireland. This should be done through our own Dáil.

The Irish people have held referendums over the past half-century to ratify various EU treaties, so the current status quo is the will of the people.

Wanderer78

KiKi III wrote: »

They accepted the terms they got. You hardly expect to get a multi-billion euro bailout with no conditions attached?

they were forced to accept it by the actions of the troika, i.e. shutting down the greek banks and not accepting alternatives to try grow the greek economy out of their mess, notably the request by varoufakis to the troika to reduce corporate tax to do so, but being denied that request by them. its important to realise the significance of this action, i.e. a Marxist requesting the reduction of corporate rates in order to grow an economy out of recession, and to increase its ability to repay its debts. it was actions like this varofakis realized the creditors didnt really want their money back, but were using greece as an example to the rest of the euro group, mainly the piigs, put up a fight, and we ll destroy your economy, hence why no one else stood up against the troika, including ourselves. varoufakis discovered, while in office, hundreds of thousands of extremely wealthy oligarchs that had paid little or no taxes, while his team were investing this, while searching for information on these individuals, their institutions were extremely obstructive in allowing their research, he had planned to force them to pay their taxes due, but had left before being able to do so.

its also important to note, even high level people involved in the 'negotiations' between the troika and greece, notable christine lagarde, agreed with varoufakis, the bail out deal simply wouldnt work for greece, and would probably cause more harm than good, she was right, and also some leading imf economists too confirmed long after the fact, what was done to greece was wrong, and indeed caused great harm to their economy and society. wolfgang schauble's(german finance minister at the time) comments in one of the first 'negotiation' talks are also telling of our current eu structure, informing varoufakis, im paraphrasing now, 'the democratic vote is virtually meaningless in these situations'. i ll let that sink in!

varoufakis explains all of this in great detail in his book adults in the room, he also released 100's of hours of audio recordings of his euro group 'negations', so people can form their own opinions on the matter, probably worth checking out, wish i had the time myself

mick087

KiKi III wrote: »

Our laws are made in Dail Eireann and your local TD does answer to you.

Yes my local TDs do answer to me and each of them would know me. Also my local councilors know me to and are happy to talk to me.[/B]

Again maybe i was not clear i do not want the EU to have any inlovement in any decision we make her in Ireland ie Trade agreement laws for example.

Wanderer78

mick087 wrote: »

Again maybe i was not clear i do not want the EU to have any inlovement in any decision we make her in Ireland ie Trade agreement laws for example.

i somewhat disagree there, both entities are needed to achieve positive outcomes for all

Invidious

mick087 wrote: »

Again maybe i was not clear i do not want the EU to have any inlovement in any decision we make her in Ireland

Perhaps you would find the post-Brexit UK to be more to your taste. It seems unlikely that Ireland will concede to your demands.

mick087

Invidious wrote: »

The Irish people have held referendums over the past half-century to ratify various EU treaties, so the current status quo is the will of the people.

Yes we in ireland indeed have have held referendums on the EU.
And lets hope one day we get a chance to vote on leaving or staying.

CtevenSrowder

Silentcorner wrote: »

Believe it or not, I'm quiet disposed to that very position, but I am a little uncomfortable about how unbalanced the whole issue has become...I am also prepared to believe that the issue of man made climate change has been overstated, we seem to have major issues presented to us in a very polarizing manner, you are either on board or you are a (insert insult) and the media industry that influences us all to some degree is an incredibly unhealthy place...it is prudent to prepare to accept you (as in anyone) are being misinformed persistently over any issue you care to mention.

I don't think it is healthy to pump anxiety into young people...it wasn't healthy decades ago when it was priests pumping fear into kids, it is not healthy now.

You can teach kids how to live in a more sustainable manner in a way that doesn't frighten them.

This is just another example of the Americanization (get it!) of political discourse, where everything becomes ridiculously polarized. The only politics around climate change should be in how to solve it (e.g. carbon taxes or no), as opposed whether it is actually a real thing or not, because it is.

Wanderer78

mick087 wrote: »

Yes we in ireland indeed have have held referendums on the EU.
And lets hope one day we get a chance to vote on leaving or staying.

lets hope not, because sometimes the worse result comes out, i.e. brexit

Invidious

mick087 wrote: »

And lets hope one day we get a chance to vote on leaving or staying.

A 2018 opinion poll found that 92 percent of Irish people want to remain in the EU. So this would probably just become the most one-sided referendum in Irish history.

mick087

Invidious wrote: »

Perhaps you would find the post-Brexit UK to be more to your taste. It seems unlikely that Ireland will concede to your demands.

No im Irish i love Ireland i have lived in the UK but Ireland is my home.

Im not making demands if it seems like i am them i apologise.
If the will of the majority of the people is to stay in the EU then we do. But i will argue my case why we should leave if i need to.

Wanderer78

Invidious wrote: »

A 2018 opinion poll found that 92 percent of Irish people want to remain in the EU. So this would probably just become the most one-sided referendum in Irish history.

its great to see majority of irish realize the benefits of staying in, hopefully it remains

Wanderer78

mick087 wrote: »

No im Irish i love Ireland i have lived in the UK but Ireland is my home.

Im not making demands if it seems like i am them i apologise.
If the will of the majority of the people is to stay in the EU then we do. But i will argue my case why we should leave if i need to.

as varoufakis has found, leaving the eu truly isnt possible, due to the complexity of its design, if we left it would probably cause a catastrophic economic collapse here, and potentially across europe

CtevenSrowder

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Absolutely, but it's a little disturbing it took an autistic child for us to truly start reacting to the seriousness of the situation

Total nonsense. Climate change issues have been around for years. The Green schools initiative started in the early 2000's, the Paris agreement was drafted in 2015, I was learning off the issue in 1st year of school in 2004, Al Gore's film came out in 2006. It has been an issue since the 80's. All this happened before Greta.

It may be the case that it took 'an autistic child' to make you take the issue seriously. But for many of us that is not the case.

mick087

Invidious wrote: »

A 2018 opinion poll found that 92 percent of Irish people want to remain in the EU. So this would probably just become the most one-sided referendum in Irish history.

Times change Opinions change i would be intersted in the an Irish democratic leave the EU referendum.


If the EU dont change it will happen there will be a referendum not only in Ireland but many other counties. It has a chance now to change but will it take that chance?

Wanderer78

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Total nonsense. Climate change issues have been around for years. The Green schools initiative started in the early 2000's, the Paris agreement was drafted in 2015, I was learning off the issue in 1st year of school in 2004. It has been an issue since the 80's. All this happened before Greta.

It may be the case that it took 'an autistic child' to make you take the issue seriously. But for many of us that is not the case.

ive been aware of environmental issues since the 80's, as a child, maybe its an autistic thing, we can tend to be very sensitive to such issues, for whatever way our brains are wired. of course there was wide scale awareness, but it has taken gretas intense catastrophization to start focusing minds on the matter

volchitsa

mick087 wrote: »

Times change Opinions change i would be intersted in the an Irish democratic leave the EU referendum.


If the EU dont change it will happen there will be a referendum not only in Ireland but many other counties. It has a chance now to change but will it take that chance?

What changes would you suggest? Specific ones, not vague handwaving, please.