Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VIII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

hotmail.com

rossie1977 wrote: »

65% approval rating suggests otherwise https://news.gallup.com/poll/318980/approval-labor-unions-remains-high.aspx

That poll shows that just 10% belong to a trade union. 90% of Americans are not in unions.

That means that America is anti union.

duploelabs

hotmail.com wrote: »

That poll shows that just 10% belong to a trade union. 90% of Americans are not in unions.

That means that America is anti union.

You do realise there are professions that are prevented from joining unions? So just because they're not able to join a union doesn't mean they're against the idea

rossie1977

duploelabs wrote: »

You do realise there are professions that are prevented from joining unions? So just because they're not able to join a union doesn't mean they're against the idea

Pretty much you see it with huge corporations like Amazons, entertainment companies like WWE/UFC where unions are banned

Even small companies fire employees for attempting to start a union https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/28/business/coronavirus-unions-layoffs.html

America isn't anti union.. corporate America is though

hotmail.com

rossie1977 wrote: »

Pretty much you see it with huge corporations like Amazons, entertainment companies like WWE/UFC where unions are banned

Even small companies fire employees for attempting to start a union https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/28/business/coronavirus-unions-layoffs.html

America isn't anti union.. corporate America is though

Sacked for joining unions and then you say America isn't anti union. That doesn't make sense.

hotmail.com

duploelabs wrote: »

You do realise there are professions that are prevented from joining unions? So just because they're not able to join a union doesn't mean they're against the idea

If are they barred from joining unions, then America is institutionally opposed to unions.

aloyisious

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't think it's about bringing back jobs. That's just a veneer to mask the real issue. I think we're seeing the effects of corporate media attempting to radicalize the population only to find out that a lot of them want to go further. We saw some of this in the UK when UKIP hoovered up nearly 5 million votes (over 12% of the total) in 2015. Not quite a valid comparison as the Republican party already fills this niche in the US and doesn't have a more rightwing alternative that I can see. There's a reason we've seen far right parties like the League, UKIP, AfD, FPO, etc in Europe but no equivalent in the US. It already has one.

I think it's a heady mix of standard GOP voters just voting GOP, enraged working class voters wanting to kick the elites and the establishment as defined by the likes of Tucker Carlson and white supremacists. Issues of "culture" take precedence over economics. Some voters will happily vote for someone who'll oppress others for them even if it means a drop in living standards because someone else will be worse off.

The left need to evolve to handle this as the right and far right have gained a substantial lead that will only grow in the short term if there's another economic or global crisis they can spin as a culture war issue.

Can part of this be due to the "aggrieved" being annoyed at the spending of federal, state & local funding got from their pockets being used in ways not liked, with some persons seizing on that to build a "popular" base while not giving a damn for the feelings of the "aggrieved"?

banie01

I see YouTube have banned and demonetized OANN for a week for false claims.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/nov/24/oann-suspended-youtube-cure-covid-19

Apologies if already posted.
Really seems like a news outlet that Don could gel with

Foxtrol

hotmail.com wrote: »

Nope, I'm not confused. America is anti union.

hotmail.com wrote: »

That poll shows that just 10% belong to a trade union. 90% of Americans are not in unions.

That means that America is anti union.

This second post by you shows the exact confusion I pointed to earlier.

You're making a giant logical leap that because people aren't part of a union they must be anti union, which is simply not the case.

Now there is a very strong argument that corporate america is anti-union, but that is the case practically everywhere in the world.

hotmail.com

Foxtrol wrote: »

This second post by you shows the exact confusion I pointed to earlier.

You're making a giant logical leap that because people aren't part of a union they must be anti union, which is simply not the case.

Now there is a very strong argument that corporate america is anti-union, but that is the case practically everywhere in the world.

Corporate America is America.

Foxtrol

aloyisious wrote: »

Can part of this be due to the "aggrieved" being annoyed at the spending of federal, state & local funding got from their pockets being used in ways not liked, with some persons seizing on that to build a "popular" base while not giving a damn for the feelings of the "aggrieved"?

This is another regularly trotted out excuse for people voting for vile candidates like Trump. No one agrees with every bit of public spending, so by your logic everyone is 'aggrieved'.

A lot of times people claim they are against government spending when it really just against government spending for certain groups they don't like. Even for the very few that spending is the real issue there is very little that Dems can really do about it aside from going against some of their core pillars.

aloyisious

hotmail.com wrote: »

That poll shows that just 10% belong to a trade union. 90% of Americans are not in unions.

That means that America is anti union.

Or X amount of the "workers" don't see themselves as such, are happy with the pay & conditions their corporate bosses give them so don't see a need to be part of the union with fees applying to same.

Foxtrol

hotmail.com wrote: »

Corporate America is America.

At this stage you don't seem to be able to justify your opinion at all so have resorting to one liners.

Not only have you shown confusion regarding the topic of union favourablity, you are now are also showing confusion regarding the US itself.

If you aren't going to try to actually have a discussion then we can leave it there.

AbusesToilets

hotmail.com wrote: »

That poll shows that just 10% belong to a trade union. 90% of Americans are not in unions.

That means that America is anti union.

The decline of the US of recent years can in many ways be linked to the decline in Unions. Exporting of jobs, the destruction of the middle class, the attendant financial insecurity.

hotmail.com

aloyisious wrote: »

Or X amount of the "workers" don't see themselves as such, are happy with the pay & conditions their corporate bosses give them so don't see a need to be part of the union with fees applying to same.

I'm not debating the idea of a union. I'm merely saying that is blatantly obvious to any outsider that America doesn't really like unions. It chimes with their "every man for themselves " culture which has solidified in their history.

Foxtrol

aloyisious wrote: »

Or X amount of the "workers" don't see themselves as such, are happy with the pay & conditions their corporate bosses give them so don't see a need to be part of the union with fees applying to same.

This and the restrictions that unions put on their workforce regarding progression, pay, new entrants etc.

People can be happy with their situation yet understand the need for unions for workers who do not have the same individual bargaining power.

I'd expect the favourability rating in polls for unions would be even higher if there weren't some high profile examples of incredibly toxic unions right now, such as the police unions that are fighting every piece of police reform and defending members who have been caught carrying out crimes on video.

hotmail.com

Foxtrol wrote: »

At this stage you don't seem to be able to justify your opinion at all so have resorting to one liners.

Not only have you shown confusion regarding the topic of union favourablity, you are now are also showing confusion regarding the US itself.

If you aren't going to try to actually have a discussion then we can leave it there.

You said corporate America is anti union, you accept that.

I'm pointing out that Corpoate America and America are one of the same thing.

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The decline of the US of recent years can in many ways be linked to the decline in Unions. Exporting of jobs, the destruction of the middle class, the attendant financial insecurity.

Whether it is the US or Ireland, being in a union does not stop the export of jobs to cheaper economies, if anything there is an argument that it could actually accelerate the export of jobs.

Foxtrol

hotmail.com wrote: »

You said corporate America is anti union, you accept that.

I'm pointing out that Corpoate America and America are one of the same thing.

That is statement is complete nonsense.

America is 330 million corporations... :rolleyes:

Quin_Dub

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The decline of the US of recent years can in many ways be linked to the decline in Unions. Exporting of jobs, the destruction of the middle class, the attendant financial insecurity.

Foxtrol wrote: »

Whether it is the US or Ireland, being in a union does not stop the export of jobs to cheaper economies, if anything there is an argument that it could actually accelerate the export of jobs.

I think the key difference in the decline of unions in the US vs. in Europe for example was that a lot of what the Unions were historically pushing have been baked into legislation in Europe.

Minimum wage, Maternity leave, Sick pay , legal minimum vacation days, overtime laws, Health & Safety regulations, Wrongful dismissal protections etc.

So the "value proposition" of unions has been greatly reduced in Europe for a lot of employees , especially outside the Public sector.

In the US , the unions just got neutered and almost none of the protections exist for employees.

Workers still want all those things , but the Unions have been blamed for everything and the public believe them.

I am no fan of unions , certainly not for a lot of the ones active in Ireland right now , but they served a purpose years ago in driving those legislative changes that now exist.

The average US employee can only dream of the kind of legal guarantees that their European equivalents have today.

Watch the UK sprint after the US in this regard post-Brexit.

VinLieger

Quin_Dub wrote: »

The single biggest challenge is breaking into this groups information bubble.

They only believe things they hear from certain people/places.

You could have a magnificent story to tell that they won't believe because the voices they believe aren't saying it.

Look at Ingraham/Carlson in recent days.

Both of them have said that Biden is the likely President and that it's highly unlikely that Trump can/will overturn the result but in the same breath they are saying "But the Election was clearly fraudulent".

The information stream is sadly what matters now.

Going back to the info bubbles for a second, they are now hilariously turning their backs Newsmax after they declared for Biden due to the certifications.


What was that 2 maybe 3 weeks?

Carfacemandog

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The decline of the US of recent years can in many ways be linked to the decline in Unions. Exporting of jobs, the destruction of the middle class, the attendant financial insecurity.

So basically Raeganism, and it having such wild success with Americans at the time (looking at you, baby boomers) that it forced the democrats to do likewise when Bill Clinton and co came about over the 80snwith the 'new democrats'.

It's always been interesting to me that americas "greatest generation" gave birth to and we're immediately followed by its worst.

duploelabs

hotmail.com wrote: »

Corporate America is America.

Now what American document starts with 'we the people'??

duploelabs

hotmail.com wrote: »

You said corporate America is anti union, you accept that.

I'm pointing out that Corpoate America and America are one of the same thing.

They fundamentally are not the same thing, and if not explain why

Igotadose

Carfacemandog wrote: »

So basically Raeganism, and it having such wild success with Americans at the time (looking at you, baby boomers) that it forced the democrats to do likewise when Bill Clinton and co came about over the 80snwith the 'new democrats'.

It's always been interesting to me that americas "greatest generation" gave birth to and we're immediately followed by its worst.

I think you're missing something. The 'Greatest Generation' lived in an era of post-war prosperity and did the thing people always did when resources were abundant - reproduced. Like crazy. Largest birth cohorts were in the late 50's/60's spurring an unprecedented population growth. US population I think more than doubled between 1960 and 1980.

As a result, *that* generation had MUCH more competition for resources, because everyone had 4 brothers and sisters, who had kids, who had kids... The Greatest Generation led the fossil fuel addiction of America, bigger houses and more cars - because the Greatest Generation had a two car garage to aspire to, so did their kids.

Corporations grew mightily because the economy expanded, because of all those consumers. Anti-unionism was a reaction to Civil Rights in the south; with the shift in politics to the GOP in the South, they legislated so-called 'right to work' laws to draw Corporations to the South.

Boomers were much more squeezed than "Greatest Generation." Subsequent generations squeezed further, and with ever-increasing population, it's only going to get worse

Brian?

hotmail.com wrote: »

That poll shows that just 10% belong to a trade union. 90% of Americans are not in unions.

That means that America is anti union.

US employers have spent the last 50 years doing everything they can to destroy unions. Aided and abetted by GOP state legislators.

Good "right to work" states.

Brian?

hotmail.com wrote: »

Corporate America is America.

No argument there. This is the problem.

Brian?

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I think the key difference in the decline of unions in the US vs. in Europe for example was that a lot of what the Unions were historically pushing have been baked into legislation in Europe.

Minimum wage, Maternity leave, Sick pay , legal minimum vacation days, overtime laws, Health & Safety regulations, Wrongful dismissal protections etc.

So the "value proposition" of unions has been greatly reduced in Europe for a lot of employees , especially outside the Public sector.

In the US , the unions just got neutered and almost none of the protections exist for employees.

Workers still want all those things , but the Unions have been blamed for everything and the public believe them.

I am no fan of unions , certainly not for a lot of the ones active in Ireland right now , but they served a purpose years ago in driving those legislative changes that now exist.

The average US employee can only dream of the kind of legal guarantees that their European equivalents have today.

Watch the UK sprint after the US in this regard post-Brexit.

I completely agree. The unions in Europe won the war and essentially made themselves redundant to a fairly large degree.

The unions in the US lost the war, state by state. The reason they lost is they had a 2 part system to fight where one side was staunchly conservative and the other were soft conservatives on economics. The Demcrats have greater ties to the organised labour movement and should be their political champions, but they constantly have to fight elections against people who call them socialists

ancapailldorcha

duploelabs wrote: »

They fundamentally are not the same thing, and if not explain why

He's probably talking about American culture and stranglehold corporate and private lobbies have on its politics.

Foxtrol

Brian? wrote: »

I completely agree. The unions in Europe won the war and essentially made themselves redundant to a fairly large degree.

The unions in the US lost the war, state by state. The reason they lost is they had a 2 part system to fight where one side was staunchly conservative and the other were soft conservatives on economics. The Demcrats have greater ties to the organised labour movement and should be their political champions, but they constantly have to fight elections against people who call them socialists

We've now gone full circle back to the original point that despite Dems still championing unions and union supported policies, the white blue collar (or whatever term you want to describe them) still went out and voted for Trump.

The 'culture war' talking points backed up by quick fix promises for economic issues are simply more powerful to that group than dem policies that would help them.

Foxtrol

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

He's probably talking about American culture and stranglehold corporate and private lobbies have on its politics.

But it is flat out wrong.

That poster was ignoring polls that show union favourability using an empty, throwaway phrase.

It would be like ignoring the favourability of abortion access in polls because of the role religion plays in US culture and their lobbying power.

Corporations and Religion are both very powerful groups but anyone claiming that either 'is America' just highlights that person has no real understanding of the country outside of lazy caricatures.