Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VIII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

Quin_Dub

Indeed and what the Pandemic has exposed is the utter fallacy of American Strength.

Their rabid "individualism" has been shown to be an utter failure in the face of an existential threat like the virus.

Their complete lack of "society" in the sense of any kind of interpretation of collective responsibility has been a key driver in their failure to deal with the current situation.

And that inherent weakness has been amplified and extended by the utter leadership void at the top.

sid waddell

pixelburp wrote: »

That's not specific to Republicans to be fair; they're just the party more inclined towards continued mythologising of the core tenet of America's key ideological identity; that emphasis on aggressive individualism over "the state" having some kind of compassionate responsibility for its citizens. Or even smaller communities looking out for itself. This is a country of Every Man For Himself and Trump is its Kaiju TBH. The ideology arguably became horribly mutated in response to the 1950s and the height of anti-communist hysteria; couldn't see something as ostensibly socialist as FDR's New Deal being born in an American post 1950. Libertarianism is a further pox, but part of the same broader illness of selfishness as a learned virtue.

But the concept of universal public healthcare is actually extremely popular in America.

Strong social security has always been popular.

The way these things are fought against and denied is through a concerted strategy of lying and the creation of a right-wing culture war. The real aims and outcomes of this ideology are actually hated. Says who? Say the actual people behind that strategy.

The Democrats are a broad church, but the most extreme pro-market ideologist in the Democrats is still far more open to public healthcare than the most liberal Republican.

The Republicans are not a broad church. The Koch/Buchanan "burn the state" ideology is mandatory. It is a cult.

And Trump is absolutely a continuation of that. Trump just took the lying and the creation of division in society (another essential tool in the Republican strategy) to industrial levels.

sid waddell

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Indeed and what the Pandemic has exposed is the utter fallacy of American Strength.

Their rabid "individualism" has been shown to be an utter failure in the face of an existential threat like the virus.

Their complete lack of "society" in the sense of any kind of interpretation of collective responsibility has been a key driver in their failure to deal with the current situation.

And that inherent weakness has been amplified and extended by the utter leadership void at the top.

Scarier than the bare failure of this ideology is the possibility, nay probability in my view, that what is happening at the moment with Covid is not at all seen as a crisis by the Republican party, it is seen as part of a planned strategy, as an opportunity.

The virus itself was not planned, obviously, but the chaos and hardship which has been allowed to happen is very much part of the plan, as it creates the conditions for the implementation of fascist shock doctrine, and clears the way for massive corruption.

pixelburp

sid waddell wrote: »

But the concept of universal public healthcare is actually extremely popular in America.

Strong social security has always been popular.

The way these things are fought against and denied is through a concerted strategy of lying and the creation of a right-wing culture war. The real aims and outcomes of this ideology are actually hated. Says who? Say the actual people behind that strategy.

The Democrats are a broad church, but the most extreme pro-market ideologist in the Democrats is still far more open to public healthcare than the most liberal Republican.

The Republicans are not a broad church. The Koch/Buchanan "burn the state" ideology is mandatory. It is a cult.

And Trump is absolutely a continuation of that. Trump just took the lying and the creation of division in society (another essential tool in the Republican strategy) to industrial levels.

It's not like the individualism isn't riddled with its own hypocrisy: after-all, the Rand institute applied for a PPP loan:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ppp-ayn-rand/in-sign-of-the-times-ayn-rand-institute-approved-for-ppp-loan-idUSKBN248026

IIRC even Rand herself said if the government wanted to give free money, you'd be an idiot not to take it (but I don't have a source on that). Universal healthcare might be popular, but it nearly always runs afoul of said individualism, manifest either through Rand'esque ideology or other similar repugnant views like the Wealth Bible. Younger generations might be coming around to vague ideas of Social Democracy, but they're butting heads against 50+ years of cultural indoctrination that tells the fundamental core of America is you step over others to get what you want. And let's be honest here: that's also part of human nature anyway, one even Social Democracies have to fight at the best of times. The difference is that (say) Ireland or Germany doesn't have it built into their respective identities of self.

Leroy42

What always gets me is that so many are against the costs of social healthcare, yet have no issue with the 750bn a year spend on the military. We even have people applauding the start of a spaceforce, based on some unknown threat in the future. But spending money on known threats (heart attacks, dementia etc etc) seems a step too far.

Guy:Incognito

How do people look at a government that behaves like this and go "yeah, thats the kind of integrity we need"


I mean, I find I'm putting this in such a large percentage of posts about Trump but surely people look at the behaviour and know that if he jumped back to being a democrat and behaved exactly the same way, they'd be hammering him for pretty much everything hes done since becoming president. If you look at a politician and know thats the case but still vote for them, youre an idiot. It's beyond just voting for "any Republican/Democrat" its hero worship of a degenerate. A degenerate they know is a degenerate.


https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1282870795925159938

Tell me how

Leroy42 wrote: »

What always gets me is that so many are against the costs of social healthcare, yet have no issue with the 750bn a year spend on the military. We even have people applauding the start of a spaceforce, based on some unknown threat in the future. But spending money on known threats (heart attacks, dementia etc etc) seems a step too far.

That is one of the great questions for the ages.

America has spent $6.4T (Yes, Trillion!) on wars since 2001 ostensibly after 3000 civilians were killed on 9/11.

They are currently at 138,000 deaths from Covid-19 in 4 months and yet most are vehemently against universal healthcare.

I mean, when it is summarized in to comparative deaths/cost in the year 2742, they are going to laugh at how uneducated and uninformed those pre-historic people were in the early 21st century. And then the teacher will really make them laugh by saying there was uproar over asking people to wear masks during a pandemic.

duploelabs

Tell me how wrote: »

That is one of the great questions for the ages.

America has spent $6.4T (Yes, Trillion!) on wars since 2001 after ostensibly after 3000 civilians were killed on 9/11.

They are currently at 138,000 deaths and yet most are vehemently against universal healthcare.

I mean, when it is summarized in to comparative deaths/cost in the year 2742, they are going to laugh at how uneducated and uninformed those pre-historic people were in the early 21st century. And then the teacher will really make them laugh by saying there was uproar over asking people to wear masks during a pandemic.

Well I don't think 9/11 would have motivated such a spend if it was done by white christian Americans but because it was perpetrated by people of a different faith and skin tone, well then, open up the bank

kowloon

duploelabs wrote: »

Well I don't think 9/11 would have motivated such a spend if it was done by white christian Americans but because it was perpetrated by people of a different faith and skin tone, well then, open up the bank

Your go-to comparison there would be the Oklahoma City bombing.

Penn

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How do people look at a government that behaves like this and go "yeah, thats the kind of integrity we need"


I mean, I find I'm putting this in such a large percentage of posts about Trump but surely people look at the behaviour and know that if he jumped back to being a democrat and behaved exactly the same way, they'd be hammering him for pretty much everything hes done since becoming president. If you look at a politician and know thats the case but still vote for them, youre an idiot. It's beyond just voting for "any Republican/Democrat" its hero worship of a degenerate. A degenerate they know is a degenerate.


https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1282870795925159938

The most egregious part of it is Scavino calling himself and Fauci "colleagues" as if they're in any way equatable with regards what Fauci speaks about.

pixelburp

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How do people look at a government that behaves like this and go "yeah, thats the kind of integrity we need"


I mean, I find I'm putting this in such a large percentage of posts about Trump but surely people look at the behaviour and know that if he jumped back to being a democrat and behaved exactly the same way, they'd be hammering him for pretty much everything hes done since becoming president. If you look at a politician and know thats the case but still vote for them, youre an idiot. It's beyond just voting for "any Republican/Democrat" its hero worship of a degenerate. A degenerate they know is a degenerate.


https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1282870795925159938

Utterly off topic but I've seen a few overt right wing, Trump friendly satirists (much from Scarvino) and they're nearly universally awful. If they're not "punching down" taking swipes at the compassionate or well meaning, they're borderline racist Uncle Sam polemics. Satire only works IMO if it's attacking those in power rather than mocking those facilitating the powerful.

Fauci becoming the enemy of Trump adjacent politics feels particularly obscene. Can't be so smug as to think we're not suffering from Lockdown Fatigue ourselves, but it hasn't translated into openly attacking the experts or those trying to protect and minimise the infections.

Penn

pixelburp wrote: »

Utterly off topic but I've seen a few overt right wing, Trump friendly satirists (much from Scarvino) and they're nearly universally awful. If they're not "punching down" taking swipes at the compassionate or well meaning, they're borderline racist Uncle Sam polemics. Satire only works IMO if it's attacking those in power rather than mocking those facilitating the powerful.

Fauci becoming the enemy of Trump adjacent politics feels particularly obscene. Can't be so smug as to think we're not suffering from Lockdown Fatigue ourselves, but it hasn't translated into openly attacking the experts or those trying to protect and minimise the infections.

I read on Twitter that among the leaks the Trump admin were providing to disparage Dr.Fauci was that they call him 'Dr. Gloom and Doom' because of how pessimistic his warnings etc are.

How do they not realise how sh*tty that makes THEM look rather than Dr.Fauci? They're nearing 140k deaths with cases still rising and breaking new records on an almost daily basis in some states.

Quin_Dub

Penn wrote: »

The most egregious part of it is Scavino calling himself and Fauci "colleagues" as if they're in any way equatable with regards what Fauci speaks about.

Indeed - Scavino , who got his job because he was Trumps caddy as a Teenager comparing himself to Dr Fauci, a man with 40+ years of experience running a major department in charge of immunology and Virus control..

Carfacemandog

pixelburp wrote: »

It's not like the individualism isn't riddled with its own hypocrisy: after-all, the Rand institute applied for a PPP loan:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ppp-ayn-rand/in-sign-of-the-times-ayn-rand-institute-approved-for-ppp-loan-idUSKBN248026

IIRC even Rand herself said if the government wanted to give free money, you'd be an idiot not to take it (but I don't have a source on that). Universal healthcare might be popular, but it nearly always runs afoul of said individualism, manifest either through Rand'esque ideology or other similar repugnant views like the Wealth Bible. Younger generations might be coming around to vague ideas of Social Democracy, but they're butting heads against 50+ years of cultural indoctrination that tells the fundamental core of America is you step over others to get what you want. And let's be honest here: that's also part of human nature anyway, one even Social Democracies have to fight at the best of times. The difference is that (say) Ireland or Germany doesn't have it built into their respective identities of self.

Ayn Rand relied on socialised healthcare (medicare) and social security in her old age and poor health. She, just like everyone who follows her, is a hypocrite.

Any by everyone, I do more or less mean it. Get 10,000 Rand followers and take everything from them in some catastrophic event - food, clothes, savings, all equities, jobs and careers, shelter, transport... anything and everything. Then offer them social security or other programs and you would be at most a dozen turn it down while the other 9,988+ couldn't line up quick enough.

Carfacemandog

pixelburp wrote: »

Fauci becoming the enemy of Trump adjacent politics feels particularly obscene. Can't be so smug as to think we're not suffering from Lockdown Fatigue ourselves, but it hasn't translated into openly attacking the experts or those trying to protect and minimise the infections.

Nah, it's been obvious for many, many months that this would happen (unless Fauci went full on lackey, which he just never seemed the type to be).

And it was obvious that when it did, the cult would do as told and stop telling how Trump is totally correct on his insane coronavirus statements because Fauci wasn't actively speaking out against them... to turning on Fauci almost instantly into a threat who cannot be trusted and must be discredited at all costs.

This is how cults work. We have been through this cycle probably a few dozen times now over the course of this administration. This shouldn't be surprising at all, and it will happen several more times to several more people between now and November. The only criteria needed is that the person doesn't offer enough support to Trump's lies and bull**** - that literally is it.

Muahahaha

duploelabs wrote: »

Well I don't think 9/11 would have motivated such a spend if it was done by white christian Americans but because it was perpetrated by people of a different faith and skin tone, well then, open up the bank

Isnt that so true. I remember Chomsky writing about the post 911 atmosphere in America at the time and saying the media and body politic was on a 24/7 infinite feedback loop of scaring the bejaysus out of the the population that they were going to be attacked by Iraq any day now. There was even the widely believed claim that Saddam could launch weapons of mass destruction in under 45 minutes.

Turned out Saddam didnt even have any WMD but that didnt stop the military industrial complex from spending trillions in case he did. If you didnt support American interventionist and hawkish foreign policy that then meant the falsie dichotomy that you didnt 'support our troops' and were therefore 'UnAmerican'. Lies and fear were ubiquitous and it allowed hawks to massively increased the military budget. They themselves created the atmosphere of fear and came up with the solution of war. It really was extraordinary times.

Igotadose

So, apparently there's some legislation in NY State that might open the door to prosecuting Roger Stone. Seems a bit of a reach to me, but he did threaten a NY state resident at one point. Still, Stone is constantly in legal crosshairs and presumably would have the resources (possibly via TrumpCo) to fend this off: https://www.rawstory.com/2020/07/legal-experts-have-figured-out-a-way-for-roger-stone-to-go-back-to-prison/

stinkypinky

Slightly off topic but I'd really recommend watching the Netflix documentary on Stone, very entertaining. He's a vile individual but very charismatic.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/get_me_roger_stone

Itssoeasy

A new addition to the president trump coronavirus word salad is his answer to a question about the fact that cases in the US are rising because of other reasons other than more testing. The answer he gave included the words "Biden and Obama stopped testing in the middle." What they stopped testing isn't clear because it certainly wasn't coronavirus because this particular one didn't exist during 2009-2016 so there would be no test to do.

PropJoe10

stinkypinky wrote: »

Slightly off topic but I'd really recommend watching the Netflix documentary on Stone, very entertaining. He's a vile individual but very charismatic.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/get_me_roger_stone

Seen that yeah, the man is an absolute scumbag. Fits nicely into the Trump universe. I'd love to know what sort of dirt he has on Trump. I'd say it's extremely juicy.

Carfacemandog

Itssoeasy wrote: »

A new addition to the president trump coronavirus word salad is his answer to a question about the fact that cases in the US are rising because of other reasons other than more testing. The answer he gave included the words "Biden and Obama stopped testing in the middle." What they stopped testing isn't clear because it certainly wasn't coronavirus because this particular one didn't exist during 2009-2016 so there would be no test to do.

Maybe he was referring to swine flu? You know, 5he one where Obama and Biden's leadership helped them keep deaths to between 2.5-8.5% of the world's deaths (12,500 for the US, global estimates fluctuate)

The US under Trump with (NY and NJ aside) had literally months to prepare that his predecessor never did, can today boast that the US accounts for 24% of all coronavirus deaths, even despite their somewhat miraculous achievement of getting their official death toll lower than the often mocked figures coming out of Russia.

Such a shame for him too. If only Obama had left him a perfectly well running centre of sorts for controlling these diseases or like, I don't know, a pandemic unit or something, Trump could have combined that with the economy Obama left for him and strolled to victory in November.

eire4

Muahahaha wrote: »

Isnt that so true. I remember Chomsky writing about the post 911 atmosphere in America at the time and saying the media and body politic was on a 24/7 infinite feedback loop of scaring the bejaysus out of the the population that they were going to be attacked by Iraq any day now. There was even the widely believed claim that Saddam could launch weapons of mass destruction in under 45 minutes.

Turned out Saddam didnt even have any WMD but that didnt stop the military industrial complex from spending trillions in case he did. If you didnt support American interventionist and hawkish foreign policy that then meant the falsie dichotomy that you didnt 'support our troops' and were therefore 'UnAmerican'. Lies and fear were ubiquitous and it allowed hawks to massively increased the military budget. They themselves created the atmosphere of fear and came up with the solution of war. It really was extraordinary times.

Bush and the Republicans also used the atmosphere to massively privatize large amounts of all that military spending. The military industrial complex is utterly out of control in the power that it holds in the US and now that has spread and become massive for the private sector as well and not just in terms of companies making things for the US military but in terms of actual out sourcing.

Thargor

Lincoln Project does good ads but this is hilarious:

aloyisious

pixelburp wrote: »

Fauci becoming the enemy of Trump adjacent politics feels particularly obscene. Can't be so smug as to think we're not suffering from Lockdown Fatigue ourselves, but it hasn't translated into openly attacking the experts or those trying to protect and minimise the infections.

Re Dr Fauci, CNN ran two short video clips. In the first, the deputy surgeon general gave a media briefing to the effect that there was light at the end of the tunnel in respect of the fight against the virus and in the second Dr Redfield gave a media presentation on the virus [like there was nothing to worry about] along the lines of Trump's view of the virus.

I think Dr Redfield was clearly putting distance between himself and Dr Fauci and I reckon there's a chance that Dr Fauci will be unwillingly be leaving Govt service and will be fired by Trump or the HSS Secretary, despite CNN calling him [or maybe because of it] the presidents chief virus expert. Having said that, that's only my reading of the two briefings.

Given how the return to usual service in the way Trump has been pushing has now been turned on its head in some states due to the upsurge in the numbers of freshly infected persons, with governors and mayors, even one judge, directing a return to lockdowns at state and municipality levels, Trump will probably see them as slighting him and tweet his anger.

The way DeVos has been pushing for the re-opening of schools to safeguard the health of the nations school children is a direct copy of Trump's line on the economy and the workers, with her not caring about the adult teachers health in the classrooms and their crony in the Senate [Mitch McConnell] pushing an insurance indemnity bill forward to provide for Govt funding to cover teachers, health care workers and shop staff if they transmit the virus to others in work. The workers won't be able to refuse to return to coalface working as they would be indemnified from the effects of being sued. That's what DeVos is also pushing through the threat to defund schools which decline to re-open as Trump wants. Imagine the scene, classrooms full of kids and not a teacher around as they are infected due to DeVos and Trump. That's the mental and physical insanity of Trump-ism.

TomOnBoard

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Nah, it's been obvious for many, many months that this would happen (unless Fauci went full on lackey, which he just never seemed the type to be).

And it was obvious that when it did, the cult would do as told and stop telling how Trump is totally correct on his insane coronavirus statements because Fauci wasn't actively speaking out against them... to turning on Fauci almost instantly into a threat who cannot be trusted and must be discredited at all costs.

This is how cults work. We have been through this cycle probably a few dozen times now over the course of this administration. This shouldn't be surprising at all, and it will happen several more times to several more people between now and November. The only criteria needed is that the person doesn't offer enough support to Trump's lies and bull**** - that literally is it.

The Cult has never liked Fauci and have been nipping at his heels since very early on. He's always stayed in his own lane and refused to be deflected, even when he appeared on the same podium as Trump. You'd often see Trump making stupid statements and Fauci setting the record straight in a firm but diplomatic manner within minutes, and Trump would have had to nod away with that peculiar robotic stance of his, and you'd just know he was thinking "This little bollix"!

Fauci was never forgiven by the Cult after the face-palm incident. And he was never forgiven by Trump by being more trusted in polls than Trump was.

Now, Hermes scarf lady... A different story altogether... She lost credibility months ago!

Headshot

Imagine 136 thousand people dead and Trump going off in a tirade against Biden

Jebus he really is unhinged

Cody montana

Trump is speaking live.
He's a rambling lying mess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyexhRRyi2E

aloyisious

I'm hoping that if Trump loses the election, he would be prosecuted at state and municipality level only of malfeasance and corporate manslaughter charges in respect of his mishandling of the virus outbreak, no federal charges, so that he would [if convicted] not be able to be pardoned or otherwise given an easy ride ala Roger Stone.

It's sickening that one of the mooted reasons Stone had his sentence commuted was to avoid the chance that he could be infected by the virus in prison [maybe just a bit of supposition] however the same reason was reportedly given for and during the bail application for Ghislaine Maxwell today.

Rjd2

Thargor wrote: »

Lincoln Project does good ads but this is hilarious:

Rick Wilson along with Bill Kristol is the worst Never trumper and both have been getting way to easy of a time regarding their own records and how they contributed to the political atmosphere that made Trump possible.

That was nice and actual satire as you assume plenty watching have been conned by these "principled" Never Trumpers.

abff

Cody montana wrote: »

Trump is speaking live.
He's a rambling lying mess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyexhRRyi2E

I’ve just listened to him rant on for about five minutes. Nothing new to say, just the same old sh*te over and over again. Makes my flesh crawl.