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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,243 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I don’t know that they refused to report on the trial, it’s far more likely an editorial decision was made that there wasn’t an angle in the case they could exploit to generate any interest, much like the way they didn’t report on the other cases of homicide or sexual offences there were in 2023 alone -

    47 homicides

    3,658 sexual offences

    Recorded homicide offences increased by 31% (or up by 17 incidents) in that period compared to the previous year.

    Murders, which increased from 24 to 47 incidents, contributed to nearly all of this increase.

    Sexual offences were up by 1% to 3,658 incidents over the same period.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/number-of-murders-nearly-doubled-ireland-cso-6177929-Sep2023/

    I don’t imagine there’s any great conspiracy by the media to protect the reputation of immigrants or anything, sure they’re made a meal out of the Limerick councillors gaffe which was possibly the least offensive thing could be said about the scumbags who went on a rampage in Dublin wrecking the place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,243 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Irish did emigrate of course but had to work and integrate they weren't handed anything, so I don't feel that's a point you can make


    Course it’s a point can be made. The Irish weren’t handed anything the same as immigrants from every other country weren’t handed anything when they arrived in the US in particular. Different times, different countries, there was no welfare system then and Irish immigrants were hated by the natives the same as every other immigrant group - Italians, Chinese, etc. The same tropes about them being a threat to society and taking all the jobs were bandied about by people who didn’t want them invading their country.

    Plenty of Irish criminal gangs then as there are today, and many of the Irish who immigrated to other countries depended on the diaspora who had already immigrated there to help them get settled -

    https://www.geni.com/projects/Irish-Gangs-in-America/8950

    Even in the 90s and 00s I knew of lads who were fleeing to other countries because they owed money to people here or they were trying to avoid the law and being sent to prison, or they were just out of prison and couldn’t get employment anywhere. Some went to the US and entered illegally, stayed illegally, still there, illegally. Most went to England where they worked on the building sites for cash in hand, or went on welfare, or simply ended up getting into trouble with the law over there too and doing a stretch.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,450 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    It would be nice to think that humanity has progressed since the 19th and 20th centuries of slavery, famine, laissez faire economics and two world wars and a cold war.

    Perhaps we're better than that. Maybe we've gotten beyond looking for the 'deserving poor.'



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,050 ✭✭✭TokTik


    We are free to move, only if we can support ourselves. There are rules attached to it, rules Ireland ignores.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,050 ✭✭✭TokTik


    Making threats, he was found not guilty of assault.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,450 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    'Rules Ireland ignores.' Kinda reminds me of a 6yr old at a birthday party complaining that another kid got more sweets.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,243 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Found guilty on two counts of violent disorder, therefore not innocent, as you were making out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,050 ✭✭✭TokTik


    And what will happen if they’re caught in the US? We also have a CTA with U.K. so that makes no sense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,243 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Sure we’ll have to wait and see what happens, won’t we?

    https://m.independent.ie/regionals/wexford/news/former-wexford-hurler-arrested-for-drink-driving-in-us-after-head-on-collision-near-golden-gate-bridge/a670754381.html

    I’m not sure what having a CTA with the UK has to do with Irish lads fleeing there to escape being sent to prison in Ireland or getting involved in criminal activities in the UK or ending up on welfare, if they don’t end up homeless and destitute with no help from the Irish diaspora over there. Ironically enough they’re still entitled to housing assistance provided they can meet the habitual residency requirement, same as Ireland then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭Gamergurll


    I'm not sure it's about 'deserving poor'. It's a big world out there and we are a tiny country with limited resources, we can't help everyone. The more scammers we take the less genuine can be helped



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    The UK. Irish are entitled to social welfare there same as their own citizens. And plenty do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,050 ✭✭✭TokTik


    You don’t see what having a CTA, which involves reciprocity in welfare systems, and allows any citizen of the U.K. and Ireland to move freely within those countries, has to do with Irish people moving to the U.K. and getting reciprocal welfare??


    It’s fairly self explanatory



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,243 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It’s not that, that part is only relevant insofar as it’s not true that Ireland is the only country where immigrants are entitled to welfare (and because of reciprocal agreements with many countries besides just the UK, plenty of immigrants who returned to their country of origin are entitled to welfare from the Irish system); it’s the part you’ve twice overlooked now which originally stemmed from the argument that the phenomenon of Irish emigration couldn’t be compared to Irish immigration because of this notion that Irish emigrants didn’t get handed anything and worked hard and all the rest of it.

    That’s simply not true, and it was never true. I’ve already given examples of how Irish emigrants immigrated to other countries to avoid prison, and that’s not counting the fact that the Irish Parliament at the time followed Westminster’s lead and used Australia as a penal colony to transport undesirables to anywhere else but Europe 🤨

    In 1786 the Irish Parliament, following the lead of the English Parliament, passed a law providing for 'the more expeditious and effectual transportation of felons ... to some of his Majesty's plantations or settlements in America, or to some other place or places not in Europe'.

    https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-919437026/findingaid



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Caquas


    You're saying the Irish national media, without exception and without coordination, arrived at the conclusion that their audience would not be interested in a trial which exposed the full horror of this brutal sexual attack by a burglar on a young woman in her own home in an Irish provincial town. By that logic, if Ashling Murphy had survived (e.g. if the ambulance had arrived immediately), the media would not have deemed the trial of her attacker as worthy of any reporting.🤯

    47 homicides this year but I assume all of them are reported fully. Are you aware of any homicide trial in Ireland which has gone unreported in our national media? Can anyone explain why this was not a homicide trial i.e. why a charge of attempted murder was not brought in this case?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    DPP very rarely brings charges of attempted anything. They tend to prefer charges that they have a fair chance of securing a conviction.

    Attempted murder is much much more difficult to prove in court then a serious assault.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Caquas


    You say that as if it’s OK.

    A woman survives a murderous attack only to be is told her assailant will merely be charged with assault. That would be a travesty of justice.

    Perhaps you mean the rules of evidence make it difficult to secure a conviction for attempted murder. Who made such cruel and unjust rules?



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,243 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    You're saying the Irish national media, without exception and without coordination, arrived at the conclusion that their audience would not be interested in a trial which exposed the full horror of this brutal sexual attack by a burglar on a young woman in her own home in an Irish provincial town. By that logic, if Ashling Murphy had survived (e.g. if the ambulance had arrived immediately), the media would not have deemed the trial of her attacker as worthy of any reporting.🤯


    I’m saying that your impression that our national media are in cahoots to protect immigrants doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny. By that rationale they must equally be in cahoots to protect Irish criminals seeking as they don’t do a whole pile of reporting on them either and it’s more or less left to regional media to cover these cases if they imagine them to be in the public interest.


    47 homicides this year but I assume all of them are reported fully. Are you aware of any homicide trial in Ireland which has gone unreported in our national media? Can anyone explain why this was not a homicide trial i.e. why a charge of attempted murder was not brought in this case?


    Put aside your assumptions for a minute, are they all reported on fully? It’d be difficult to verify but I’m sure if you put in the legwork you could satisfy yourself one way or the other as to whether or not all 47 cases were reported on fully. It’s reasonable to conclude that the 3,658 cases of sexual assault weren’t reported on fully, yet you have a bee in your bonnet about this one case?

    I’m not particularly concerned as you are about what cases the media deems worthy of coverage, and I don’t imagine they’re all in cahoots either, seems unlikely for example that there would be any overlap between the readership of the Sunday World and the Sunday Business Post? I only mention them because they’re poles apart in terms of their content, whereas the Irish Independent, the Irish Times and the Irish Examiner would all have similar content which appeals to a similarly minded readership.

    Although in saying that my old man bought the Irish Independent daily, wouldn’t be seen dead reading the Irish Times 🤔 But they were different papers back then. Nowadays I used buy the Sunday Business Post from the man in a van when I’d be coming out of mass, same as my old man used do, but even that’s gone to shyte nowadays and isn’t worth the €3 I think they’re charging these days.

    Basically if I’m understanding your point correctly - you’re under the impression that there’s an agreement between Irish media outlets to only publish similar content that doesn’t speak ill of immigrants and promotes Government policies as being a positive for Irish citizens or some similar narrative to that anyway. I can’t say I’ve seen the same phenomenon as you do because for one - I don’t have much interest in Irish media outlets, and two - they wouldn’t make much revenue from that strategy if there were no ideological differences between them which would appeal to their respective readership, never mind attracting new audiences, seeing as print media is dying on it’s proverbial arse!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,450 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    'The more scammers we take the less genuine can be helped.' Who would these scammers be? Refugees who are desperate because their own countries have become dangerous terrible places to be? or just old fashioned scammers that you get in every walk of life?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    I'm saying it as fact. If the evidence is there to secure a conviction for serious assault, then it makes sense to charge the offender with that. They did commit a serious assault.

    far better to get a conviction, then chance no conviction at all for a different charge .



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Oh, I understood that you believed what you were saying. I was just shocked that you are so complacent.

    You do know he could have been tried for both attempted murder and for assault?

    This was not a complex case. The evidence against him was overwhelming. He left his victim for dead having stabbed her multiple times with tremendous force. He did everything a murderer would have done but miraculously she survived. Is our legal system is so inadequate and unpredictable that he couldn’t be charged properly?

    Fortunately, the judge recognised the gravity of his offence even if the DPP failed to prosecute the case to its proper extent.

    But he will be released in about six years time. Still a young man and his record will not reflect the horrendous nature of his crime.

    If the media was concerned about the rule of law, they might ask these questions but the media didn’t even report on the trial.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    I'm not complacent, I just understand the situation and the law.

    There is no point charging him with an offence when there is basically no chance of a guilty verdict.

    you think the evidence was overwhelming, the DPP, who are legal experts, decided the evidence was enough for sexual assault and serious assault, they are the experts that understand evidence and court procedure probably more than you ( no offence)

    he got 11 year sentence, so won't be released in 6 years. 25% reduction equals 8.25 years in prison. That's not nothing



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Caquas


    No chance of a guilty verdict? The facts as reported point overwhelming towards his guilt. Do you know something about this case that wasn’t reported (by the only media source that deemed this horror story worth reporting)?

    Why did the DPP accept a guilty plea to an assault charge? Very often the DPP prosecutes for murder even when the accused offers to plead guilty to a manslaughter charge.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,243 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    You do know he could have been tried for both attempted murder and for assault? 

    This was not a complex case. The evidence against him was overwhelming. He left his victim for dead having stabbed her multiple times with tremendous force. He did everything a murderer would have done but miraculously she survived. Is our legal system is so inadequate and unpredictable that he couldn’t be charged properly?


    I suppose one reason why the question of an attempted murder charge didn’t arise is because there was insufficient evidence to support the idea of intent to commit murder -

    Attempted murder requires a specific intent rather than simply an attempt to inflict serious injury.

    https://legalblog.ie/homicide-sentencing/


    Fortunately, the judge recognised the gravity of his offence even if the DPP failed to prosecute the case to its proper extent.

    The DPP can appeal the leniency of a sentence?

    https://archive.ph/wTX7A



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    If There was any chance of a prosecution for attempted murder, the DPP would have gone with that charge. There clearly wasnt.

    But what there was, was a very good chance of a conviction for sexual assault and serious assault. And they were right, he was convicted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 141 ✭✭highpressisbest


    What’s noticeable in the Puska and Palani cases is that it is possible to come to Ireland and never have to work or engage at all with mainstream Irish society. A great little country as they say!

    The regime media definitely didn’t think we could handle details of another Slovakian knife man. Their consideration knows no bounds. I hope the Slovakian people appreciate our efforts to make their country safer!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Caquas


    I realise the charge of attempted murder, perversely, requires proof of intent to kill while it is sufficient on a charge of murder to prove an intent to seriously injure.

    Nonetheless, this was a case of attempted murder and his intent can be shown from the facts - he stabbed her numerous times with lethal force, he left her for dead in her bathroom, he took her phone which would allow her to call for help and he did nothing to raise the alarm. Or do you mean that our law in this area is so perverse that even these facts don’t support a charge of attempted murder? Suvigirl seems cool with that and ignores the evidence but you may have common sense.

    I’m not saying the judge was lenient. In respect of the charges which the DPP brought, she fixed a sentence at the top end of the scale for assault- she took 18 years as the “headline” and reduced it because of the guilty plea and his youth. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the defendant appeal against the severity of the sentence - has anyone got 18 years for assault?

    In any case, my main gripe is the failure to report this trial. The DPP’s failure to bring more serious charges is no excuse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,243 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    In any case, my main gripe is the failure to report this trial.


    Aye I get that much, and the rest is secondary, but I just don’t imagine there was any agreement between the various media organisations to not report on the trial. There doesn’t appear to be any reason for them to do so, it’s not as though they haven’t reported on cases which had similar characteristics.

    I don’t imagine either there was any influence of culture involved here as though the behaviour or attitude is a peculiarly Slovakian trait, or something that’s peculiar to men… unlike the way various opinionators in the media have been trying to portray cases with similar characteristics in the last few years as being indicative of ‘male violence’, when in reality the vast majority of men do not engage in and are not prone to being violent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Caquas


    You wrongly claimed that my

    impression that our national media are in cahoots to protect immigrants doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny

    This is a perfect example of the straw man" argument. I never suggested the national media were "in cahoots" and I made no mention of migrants. In fact, I don't believe there was any media conspiracy but that only adds to my puzzlement. If a couple of news outlets had overlooked this trial, I would have thought nothing of it - just a couple of random errors of judgement in busy newsrooms. But that is not what happened here and no one here has offered any rational explanation for the blanket failure to report this trial (with the sole exception of RadioKerry locally to prove the national rule).

    You are correct to say that some media commentators

    have been trying to portray cases with similar characteristics in the last few years as being indicative of ‘male violence’, when in reality the vast majority of men do not engage in and are not prone to being violent.

    But, again that only adds to my bewilderment. Surely this case should be highlighted by anyone in the media concerned with violence against women?




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    I hate to tell you, but there is violence against women every single day, most don't get reported in the media. You would be.sickened if you heard about some of them



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,243 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    This is a perfect example of the straw man" argument. I never suggested the national media were "in cahoots" and I made no mention of migrants. In fact, I don't believe there was any media conspiracy but that only adds to my puzzlement.


    Well that’s what you appeared to be suggesting earlier -

    You're saying the Irish national media, without exception and without coordination, arrived at the conclusion that their audience would not be interested in a trial


    So if the media aren’t in cahoots, and you don’t believe there was any media conspiracy, and the case has nothing to do with migrants, what has the case got to do with this thread which is about multiculturalism in Ireland?

    You’re puzzled? I’m doubly puzzled now myself tbh as I’ve no idea what you’re driving at or where you’re going with this line of discussion 😂



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