Allow me to explain why the 'All Live Matter' hashtag is awful.

Cupatae

Carfacemandog wrote: »

I see you're eager to change the subject from your clearly lost argument on broken windows, to questioning why people had an issue with a guy being murdered by police for using a fake $20 bill.

The reason it resonated with people in the US is because it could easily have been them - Floyd did some horrible stuff in the past, but he wasn't here. He was literally smoking a cigarette in a car that he had used a fake $20 bill to pay for, and it cost him his life.

He could just as easily have been a teenager eating a packet of skittles down the road from his dads house and had the killer be let walk away from the scene and get off scott free. He could just as easily have been a 26 year old nurse enjoying a good night's sleep in Kentucky in between shifts of trying to help tackle the covid crisis on the front line, only be shot dead and have her partner charged with attempted murder for the incident. He could just as easily have been some random guy selling individual cigarettes on a New York street corner, acting in no way violent and just completely senselessly choked to death by police. He could just as easily have been going for a jog through rural Atlanta only to be hunted down like a dog (or "n*gger" to use their words) by an ex-cop and DA's office worker with it nearly swept nicely under the carpet and no charges filed or arrests made until public outcry caused it to go viral. He could just as easily have been a school nutritionist, killed for having his legally held gun kept legally in the glove compartment. He could just as easily have been a woman murdered by police for playing video games with her nephew in her own home. He could just as easily have been a 14 year old kid playing with his sister and a toy gun then shot and then left to die as they were too busy arresting her after. He could literally have even been at home, eating ice cream and had a drunk cop storm in and murder him. He could have been killed for walking down the stairs in his apartment building.

The fact that some of these cases came so close to each other - particularly Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery which were all over the news throughout May leading up to Floyd's murder at the hands of police - all came together, was enough spark to set it all off on the back of people already being frustrated at the state of their nation and a president who takes advise from outed white supremacists like Stephen Miller. Of course, had the response from the government and law enforcement been less awful, they may have been able to get this under control quicker. But they didn't.

---

I do love when people bring up MLK and peaceful protesting though, because black people had tried what is often called an 'MLK style' peaceful protest already back in 2016, and were labeled as scum and traitors for it. They received death threats, and careers like Colin Kaepernick's were ruined due to blacklisting for daring to peacefully protest. Leading those threats and insults was of all the people, the same president of the United States who has white supremacists for advisers, claiming it was disrespectful to the troops and flag... while also mocking dying American war heroes, calling all his generals idiots, insulting the families of people who lost their loved ones in combat... and outright supporting police brutality. In other words, it had nothing to do with 'the troops and flag' and almost everything to do with wanting those 'uppity negroes' to shut up know their place. That group of people simply didn't want to hear it.

Funny enough, once protesters took it to the next level, people started listening pretty quickly and now many have back peddled a lot on the stances they took in 2016. But if you actually had paid attention to MLK (who the FBI considered the most dangerous man in the country), you would have heeded that warning from over half a century ago:

"A riot is the language of the unheard."
- Martin Luther King.

Hey, how about another MLK quote while we're at it, because he was not the outright pacifist-above-all-else type that some seem to think. Not by a long shot. Going by the below, he would largely approve of these protests, including the rioting and looting.

"Urban riots must now be recognized as durable social phenomena. They may be deplored, but they are there and should be understood. Urban riots are a special form of violence. They are not insurrections. The rioters are not seeking to seize territory or to attain control of institutions. They are mainly intended to shock the white community. They are a distorted form of social protest. The looting which is their principal feature serves many functions. It enables the most enraged and deprived Negro to take hold of consumer goods with the ease the white man does by using his purse. Often the Negro does not even want what he takes; he wants the experience of taking.”
- Martin Luther King

And here is a quote from one of MLK's closest colleagues:

“I keep a shotgun in every corner of my bedroom and the first cracker even look like he wants to throw some dynamite on my porch won’t write his mama again.”
- Fannie Lou Hamer


Make no bones about it, many people like you would have been ardently against MLK at the time (as many were) and thrown many of the very same labels as you and others are so fond of are this thread, in MLK's direction for his criminal record, his views on rioting and looting, and his associations at times with people unafraid to use violence, so there's really no point in invoking him now.

And the majority of those who have such strong issues with these protests/riots, and claim to just want peaceful protest (while always super eager to invoke MLK), are the same ones who absolutely abhorred peaceful protest when Colin Kaepernick was spearheading it 4 years ago. And that is what led the situation to escalate to where it is today - that's as per the same MLK you wanted to invoke by me, not me.

Maybe people should have listened in 2016 and let them know they were being heard, rather than shouting them down as they did.

The reason it resonated in the US is because the media wanted it to, and there was a massive appetite for it by all these righteous virtue signallers,

Think about it, why aren't these people raging over an innocent 8 yr old girl shot dead Secoriea Turner? Why is millions and millions being raised for George floyd but there isn't a peep for this child .. the reason is the media and the agenda they want to push and that is white on black hate crimes they ignore everything else because it's what the mass amount of virtue signallers want.

Bonniedog

I said murders were increasing in New York which they are.

So, did MLK and Hamer break into peoples house and sell drugs?

Carfacemandog

Cupatae wrote: »

The reason it resonated in the US is because the media wanted it to, and there was a massive appetite for it by all these righteous virtue signallers,

Think about it, why aren't these people raging over an innocent 8 yr old girl shot dead Secoriea Turner? Why is millions and millions being raised for George floyd but there isn't a peep for this child .. the reason is the media and the agenda they want to push and that is white on black hate crimes they ignore everything else because it's what the mass amount of virtue signallers want.

1. They've raised a quarter million in under a week - https://ie.gofundme.com/f/official-memorial-fund-for-secoriea-turner

2. The George Floyd riots kicked off before there was much media attention of the case, within 24 hours of his death. It was the riots, and the police reaction of getting the tear gas etc out immediately, that truly caught people's attention.

3. George Floyd's death was a long, agonising one caught on camera in full which caused it to go viral. Turner's was not on camera, which leads to less of a reaction.

4. There was a clear 'bad guy' in Floyd's death in Derek Chauvin right off the bat. In Secoriea Turner's case there was not, and they still do not have a clear identity of who it was yet.

5. George Floyd's death, as I already discussed in the post you were responding to, came on the back of two other high profile stories of a long standing issue regarding black people being killed unnecessarily by police, and of a disgruntlement among black people over their government being openly hostile to their attempts at peaceful protest (while advocating armed protest for their own supporters). Without the building anger from Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor being in the news in the days leading up to this, I doubt this would have sparked the riots it did. Had people not been sitting around during coronavirus without much to do or jobs to go to, it also likely would not have reached the same levels.

ELM327

Carfacemandog wrote: »

What 'fact' are they stating there that have anything to do with the discussion at hand?

Because Floyd certainly is no hero of mine, but that doesn't mean he deserved to be killed for using a fake $20 bill.

Do you think he should have been killed on the street for using a fake $20 bill?
Do you think he should have been killed on the street for being high (if he was)?

Those are not sarcastic questions by the way, because you have already called for slaughtering people for entering the home of a man who had literally invited them in. You're a bit fond of the auld violence going by your posting history, so it wouldn't surprise me much if you answered 'yes' to one or both of the above questions.

He didnt deserve to be killed, no, and chauvin deserves what's coming to him as a bent copper.


But to hail Floyd as this angel really irks me, as he was a scumbag in life.

Carfacemandog

Bonniedog wrote: »

I said murders were increasing in New York which they are.

Nice try, but that's not it.

You said police in the US should not look at country's with lower overall crime rates, and figure out how to emulate them. Instead, you said the US should get back to embracing the Broken Windows approach, only to be shown it has been a) ruled unconstitutional in many aspects, b) does not show any sizable contribution to the reduction of crime rates which are lower now than they were in the BW era, c) is based on intentionally misrepresenting a study which had an entirely different conclusion that making people feel a part of society and community cohesion are key, and d) that some of the most substantial crime rates in the US have actually come in two cities that have defunded or even abandoned their departments.

So, did MLK and Hamer break into peoples house and sell drugs?

MLK was a huge advocate for legalising cannabis, which at the time would have had your equivalents up in arms. He shared many ideologies with, associated with members of, and even played an early role in the founding of, the Black Panther Party who were constantly labelled as violent criminals and drug addicts. So yes, you absolutely would have been labelled Martin Luther King "scum", as you did toward the Black Panthers in only your last post.

Carfacemandog

ELM327 wrote: »

He didnt deserve to be killed, no, and chauvin deserves what's coming to him as a bent copper.


But to hail Floyd as this angel really irks me, as he was a scumbag in life.

Who has been labeling George Floyd as an angel in this thread, though?

Bonniedog

Carfacemandog wrote: »

MLK .... an early role in the founding of, the Black Panther Party who were constantly labelled as violent criminals and drug addicts. .

No he did not!

Panthers were founded by Newton and Seale as a protection racket in Oakland.

And Newton was not only a crack addict but a dealer.

Now. You will of course produce evidence of your claim regarding MLK and the BPP.

Cupatae

Carfacemandog wrote: »

1. They've raised a quarter million in under a week - https://ie.gofundme.com/f/official-memorial-fund-for-secoriea-turner

2. The George Floyd riots kicked off before there was much media attention of the case, within 24 hours of his death. It was the riots, and the police reaction of getting the tear gas etc out immediately, that truly caught people's attention.

3. George Floyd's death was a long, agonising one caught on camera in full which caused it to go viral. Turner's was not on camera, which leads to less of a reaction.

4. There was a clear 'bad guy' in Floyd's death in Derek Chauvin right off the bat. In Secoriea Turner's case there was not, and they still do not have a clear identity of who it was yet.

5. George Floyd's death, as I already discussed in the post you were responding to, came on the back of two other high profile stories of a long standing issue regarding black people being killed unnecessarily by police, and of a disgruntlement among black people over their government being openly hostile to their attempts at peaceful protest (while advocating armed protest for their own supporters). Without the building anger from Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor being in the news in the days leading up to this, I doubt this would have sparked the riots it did. Had people not been sitting around during coronavirus without much to do or jobs to go to, it also likely would not have reached the same levels.

There's no denying the leftist spin the media had put to drive this narative of black people being slaughtered in the streets when it isn't the case , and they are certainly driving certain aspects of this its clear to see.. demonizing the police force, pushing white guilt there's all sorts of wacky **** happening .

Either way though BLM aren't the answer to any of this , and it's becoming clearer by the day...

RandomName2

iamstop wrote: »

If you are using the 'alllivesmatter' hashtag and don't know any better or are confused why people are mad at you let me explain it:

2. The oppressors decided that this hashtag would gather too much momentum and decided they needed to water it down and dilute it with 'alllivesmatter' to protect the racist system that they benefit from. And to some degree it's working (COINTELPRO). Every time you use that hashtag you are doing the work of the oppressor. You are being used as a pawn. You are being manipulated into diluting a movement that's main goal is end police brutality.

I agree, but I think it's also worth pointing out how the message is being diluted from the other side.

Going on about civil war statutes, old television programs, and even how people of color are victimized in Ireland is making the message muddy and confused.

This is about the police murdering black people in America and getting away with it.

However I think that it would have been easier to make the movement simply about police murdering people. Overwhelmingly it is blacks that get killed by the police, but add number of whites and Hispanics together and it is the same number. Is it a bigger issue for black communities? You bet, but it should be an issue universally shared. This is pragmatic if nothing else. From what I can see the police in America across the board are heavy handed, brutal, and incautious. If they get rid of racial profiling that's great, but it's not the root issue.

While I agree with #blacklivesmatter, and can see why they used that rallying cry, defining issues by race always makes consensus a more difficult prospect. Demanding equal treatment for all always should be the goal, which is why the term #alllivesmatter being hijacked by people who are distinctly against equality is particularly appalling

Bonniedog

RandomName2 wrote: »

Overwhelmingly it is blacks that get killed by the police,

That is not true. Of 506 police killings to end of June 105 were black people.

Carfacemandog

Bonniedog wrote: »

No he did not!

Panthers were founded by Newton and Seale as a protection racket in Oakland.

And Newton was not only a crack addict but a dealer.

Now. You will of course produce evidence of your claim regarding MLK and the BPP.

King was an organiser of and speaker at the march where the "black power" slogan and sentiment was born, which inspired Newton and Seale (who calls MLK his main inspiration) to form the Black Panther Party almost straight after. Later on, MLK didn't only work with the Black Panthers - before his assassination he was considering outright joining them.

So yes, you and others in this thread would absolutely have been calling Martin Luther King scum, and his followers along with him, for their dealings and associations with "junkie criminals" and for his views and comments on rioting and looting.

https://theundefeated.com/features/the-truth-about-the-party-that-brought-power-to-the-people/
Seale: The biggest misconception is the FBI said that the Black Panthers hated all white folks. How could we hate white folks when we protested along with thousands of our white left radical and white liberal friends? We worked in coalition with each other, in coalition with the Asian community organizations and coalition with Native American community organizations, in coalition with Hispanic, Puerto Ricans and brown [people]. I had coalitions with 39 different organizational groups crossing all racial and organizational lines. I had a coalition actually with SCLC [Southern Christian Leadership Conference], Dr. Martin Luther King’s SCLC, particularly centered around the Poor People’s March. They had a coalition with 100 different other organizations and we joined it. I saw to it as chairman of the Black Panther Party that we would work with Dr. King to do that.


https://www.washingtoninformer.com/bobby-seale-mlk-was-set-to-join-black-panther-party-before-death/
WI: Interesting point. Well you’ve certainly inspired a lot of people over your lifetime despite your hesitancy to embrace it. But who would you say inspired you?

BS: Definitely Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He was a real brother. He meant what he said. He was passionate and he was sincere. Whenever I heard him speak, I was moved.

And as a matter of fact, a lot of people don’t know this, but right before he was assassinated, he [MLK] and I actually had a meeting where he was going to join the Black Panther Party. He wanted to help, he wanted to make change. We all did.

the_syco

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

Which says more about you, attempting to justify the actions of the murdering sub-human cretins that murdered her, as if she was asking for it and that it was her fault.

Both groups pulled guns on each other after yelling racial slurs at each other.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Bonniedog

That is laughable stuff.

Your source is Bobby Seale! "A lot of people don't know this."!!! That's because he made it up.

The Panthers gang hated MLK. The notion that he was going to join them is nonsense.

As for the "black power" slogan it was never used by King who disapproved of it because he was opposed to black separtism. Read some proper books instead of the websites you link.

Stokely Carmichael was the person who used it in a speech and he was a member of BPP for a short time before leaving America. Like the other SNCC leader James Forman he was appalled by the Panther leaders who were indeed thugs and gangsters.

Seale was an appalling character who when he heard his wife had become pregnant while he was in jail ordered the torture and murder of Fred Bennett. The Panthers disintegrated in feuds over money and drugs.

Newton was a junkie and a drug dealer who was murdered outside a crack house. Eldridge Cleaver was a serial rapist who claimed that raping white girls was a political act.

Do you seriously think MLK would have had anything to do with them? It would have been like John Hume joining the IPLO!

RandomName2

Bonniedog wrote: »

That is not true. Of 506 police killings to end of June 105 were black people.

Sorry, I should have said 'of any particular demographic'.

katiek102010

Adam9213 wrote: »

You mean young people don't get stopped and searched in ballymun or what are you talking about?

It probably disproportionately effects black citizens because black areas have the most crime and the biggest problems with gang violence that's just facts it doesn't mean it's racial profiling.

Having lived in London I can firmly say stop and search happens in high crime areas.
Youths hanging around in gangs are the targets. If black youths are stopped and searched more than white, it's because black youths are hanging around in gangs more, in high crime areas, than white youths.
They are not being targeted because of the colour of their skin, they are being profiled because of there actions and behaviour in specific areas.

Maybe just maybe if they stopped the behaviour it wouldn't happen. Believe it or not I know plenty of black people in London who have never been stopped and searched. Reason being parents didnt let them act like scumbags

Chris_Heilong

katiek102010 wrote: »

Having lived in London I can firmly say stop and search happens in high crime areas.
Youths hanging around in gangs are the targets. If black youths are stopped and searched more than white, it's because black youths are hanging around in gangs more, in high crime areas, than white youths.
They are not being targeted because of the colour of their skin, they are being profiled because of there actions and behaviour in specific areas.

Maybe just maybe if they stopped the behaviour it wouldn't happen. Believe it or not I know plenty of black people in London who have never been stopped and searched. Reason being parents didnt let them act like scumbags

Exactly It is just logical, when Sadiq Khan removed stop and search knife crime went through the roof. However I do think it is also logical to assume that the police do form some bias not massively and certainly not the number one factor in who they search but if there were three buttons in front of me and the black button gives me an electric shock 70% of the time but the other two only 20% then I will have a bias towards the black button.

1800_Ladladlad

The BLM movement right here. A prime example of delusional racism.

https://twitter.com/Adam4d/status/1283087941271801861

suicide_circus

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

The BLM movement right here. A prime example of delusional racism.

https://twitter.com/Adam4d/status/1283087941271801861

jesus, he's an columnist for the new york times

ThunbergsAreGo

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

The BLM movement right here. A prime example of delusional racism.

https://twitter.com/Adam4d/status/1283087941271801861

He has been fired

https://www.vulture.com/2020/07/nick-cannon-fired-by-viacomcbs-over-anti-semitic-comments.html

suicide_circus

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

He has been fired

https://www.vulture.com/2020/07/nick-cannon-fired-by-viacomcbs-over-anti-semitic-comments.html

but fired for his anti semetic comments not for saying white people are "closer to animals" and "savages", those comments were fine.

ELM327

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

The BLM movement right here. A prime example of delusional racism.

https://twitter.com/Adam4d/status/1283087941271801861

yet another example of why BLM is about black supremacy.
I'll stick to my all lives matter hashtag, as this sums up what I think. No one is better or worse than anyone else.

Wibbs

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

The BLM movement right here. A prime example of delusional racism.

https://twitter.com/Adam4d/status/1283087941271801861

A product of the American public school system that has gone way downhill, a product of their media, a product of a low level paranoia of the colonist, a product of their deep race fault lines and a product of the various religious sects that the country was founded upon. Not such a shock really.

He's just watering down the Nation of Islam belief stuff and thinks he's being careful doing so.

Chris_Heilong

suicide_circus wrote: »

but fired for his anti semetic comments not for saying white people are "closer to animals" and "savages", those comments were fine.

If they said white people were closer to animals they would be insulting themselves as almost all African Americans are descended from American Slave owners, the only pure Africans are ones that immigrated from Africa.

SlowMotion321

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

If they said white people were closer to animals they would be insulting themselves as almost all African Americans are descended from American Slave owners, the only pure Africans are ones that immigrated from Africa.

We're all descended from the same evolutionary branch no 'race' is any closer or further to the lower orders of animals than any other!







(except for vegans)

Wibbs

Yep, this which "race" is closer to the "beasts" has been going for centuries, not least in religious faiths, but really revved up after Darwin's work*, work which should have nipped it in the bud to more of a degree, but was instead twisted to the needs of things like racism and eugenics and gave things a "scientific" gloss. The crimes of Nazism and is just one example of where it went insane. Oddly enough Blacks under Nazi rule though considered "lesser" than "aryans" and certainly discriminated against unlike others on that lesser list didn't have any policy of extermination applied to them. Some even served in their military.








*In many the erroneous idea that there was an inevitable progression from base to civilised through natural selection was one idiocy.

Chris_Heilong

SlowMotion321 wrote: »

We're all descended from the same evolutionary branch no 'race' is any closer or further to the lower orders of animals than any other!

(except for vegans)

Actually, all races around the world except for mainland Africans have Neanderthal DNA which is where the Black supremacist idea that white people are like animals comes from however my use of the word descended might have been ill used.

ELM327

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Actually, all races around the world except for mainland Africans have Neanderthal DNA which is where the Black supremacist idea that white people are like animals comes from however my use of the word descended might have been ill used.

Fact checker: BUZZ
False.


https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/africans-carry-surprising-amount-neanderthal-dna

Africans carry surprising amount of Neanderthal DNA

SlowMotion321

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Actually, all races around the world except for mainland Africans have Neanderthal DNA which is where the Black supremacist idea that white people are like animals comes from however my use of the word descended might have been ill used.

I was waiting for that But there is no real evidence to suggest they were any less 'human' than us probably just less murderous!

(using human as a yardstick not a specific genetic designation if you get my meaning)

Wibbs

ELM327 wrote: »

Fact checker: BUZZ
False.


https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/africans-carry-surprising-amount-neanderthal-dna

Well, not quite. What sequences are present are much lower, though yes higher than was expected and appear to have come from more recent(20-30,000 years) back flow migration into Africa and it may not be specifically Neandertal DNA in the first place, but more ancient shared DNA that was retained by peoples like the Neandertals and Denisovans and Modern Humans. Sub Saharan Africans look like they retain some more local archaic DNA of their own, which makes sense, just like other human populations.

Generally speaking local populations of modern humans share DNA of similarly local archaic humans. So Neandertals in Indo Europeans, Neandertals(slightly different genes) and Denisovans in East Asians.

Chris_Heilong

You are quoting a brand new(2020) study which I am going to have to cross reference but regardless I am telling you that is where the Black supremacists get their ideas, hopefully they are as up on these studies as you are;)